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Balance mod project
Hi guys.
I'm creating a mod to tweak aspects of Dominions that have bugged me for quite a while. Many of the weapons are modelled quite weirdly. Glaives and other polearms are really bad in general, and almost anything aside from a sword seems to be a bad deal. As something of a medieval history buff and somebody who has done European MA, I've set out to fix this so that the weapons better reflect reality, and so that their resource costs and abilities make all of them reasonable choises. Details later. This is a teaser (and a rant). The worst effected part of the weapons is the japenese set. Orientalism is a disease that tends to infect quite smart people, and make them believe in katana's that cut machine gun barrels in half. I've turned the Nipponese weapons back to real world values. For game fun, I've reversed the bonuses form their european equivalents. Where european swords give defencive bonuses, the nipponese ones give attack. It's meant to keep them as something exotic and to reflect different training and approach to personal combat. The cheese is right out. I'm also turning the crazy values and costs of the Jomons human(!) troops down to normal Dom 3 mortal levels. Other changes include. - removal of gem producing magic items and hammers that reduce magic item forging costs. Removal of Forge of Ancients. - removal of hand and head slots from werewolves, giant or othervice. They have a double claw attack and a bite. Same for werejaguars and the Vanir skinshifters. - Removal of all equipment slots from special summoned monsters like the Kindly Ones. Having them pick up a pointless magic item ruins them quite effectively. *** To do. Fixing Hinnom and it's other two incarnations. They make Jomon look balanced. |
Re: Balance mod project
move to other forum plox
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This sounds very interesting. Tell me - do you use CBM? I'm aware that it doesn't address most of the issues that you mention, but I'm just interested. CBM does (almost) remove gem producing items and hammers, by making them artifacts. As for some of the other stuff, e.g. removal of slots from the Kindly Ones, that sounds as much like a bug fix as anything and should possibly be incorporated into CBM.
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I'm kind of worried that your changes will make Jomon unplayably bad, actually. Jomon has no shields and only decent protection, so they rely on defense values to keep their guys alive. If they had normal defense values, and if their weapons lose the attached bonuses, they're going to become incredibly feeble. And pretty much die in droves. Which with their resource costs would make them pretty terrible. They'd be better than agarthans, but that's about all you can say that's any good. And the most base defense any unit gets is 13, and those are on Very Elite units. So the units themselves are not that bizarre as is. I really don't see what's so wrong with the current samurai that they deserve to be nerfed into uselessness. Even in CBM I don't think jomon's units are unbalanced, and they're strictly inferior in vanilla, which you seem to be operating under the assumption of.
I don't have any objections to the other things you listed though. |
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Lord of the Hunt, the Kindly Ones and their kind having item slots is effectively a bug, and an example of emergent complexity. Interesting as it is in principle, it's really infuriating in practice. Incidentally I'm thinking 30 gold would be a fair cost for the sacred warriors of Jomon. Pretty cheap if anything. At that price I'm putting their skills at 12. The katana user at 12 / 12, and the naginata guy with 13 / 11. The Ashigaru seems to be a step above militia in price (and I suppose in history) so I'm setting their combat skills at 9. |
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As for Jomon, I intend to volunteer to play them myself in our next multiplayer match. If I make mistakes, I'll pay the price. As they are now, they are very silly indeed.
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When you say they are very silly... do you mean they're too weak, or too strong? Or neither?
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He seems to be saying that they are too strong, because their stats are abnormally high for humans (10atk/11def on normal samurai, 13/13 on elites) and because their weapons give pretty high bonuses to attack and defense skill.
Of course I completely disagree, since they're still less survivable than any random heavy infantry, but... |
Re: Balance mod project
More or less survivable is all a matter of their pricing. Realism > arbitary balance in a game like this anyway. At least to me.
Incidentally, something about the katana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLWzH...eature=related |
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Well, I certainly wasn't making the argument that katana are magically awesome weapons or anything :P I don't think anyone here would make that argument. The only argument I'm making is that Jomon with nerfed infantry seems like an unnecessary nerf, especially since they weren't that amazing to begin with. Vanilla jomon for example is pretty bad at expanding because they don't have any survivable units they can recruit, and everything that they can recruit takes a lot of resources even so. So they lose tons of units expanding and have to replace them.
As far as the video goes I'm not sure it's entirely accurate. In any case I've just seen some videos of katana cutting through steel pipes, sheets of metal, and japanese steel helmets well enough, along with various other objects. So while it may not be a wonder weapon, it also isn't an atrocious one. If I were to stat a Katana in dominions I would probably put them at 6/2/2/3 (vs a broadsword at 6/0/1/2), which is one less attack and one more length as compared to how illwinter did it. Mainly because a two-handed katana is a much faster of a weapon than a 1-handed broadsword is. I'm not sure I disagree with 3 attack though. If you compare the two and consider the samurai isn't using a shield, I think that's pretty fair really... Counter-link :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo |
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Wow that dude is irritating. Spends more time talking about other swords than the katanas. A well random internet experts. |
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Anyway, if you're going to go down that road... -Ashigaru should cost 0g. Equipment is paid for in resources (check), and the troops were paid in food (supplies, check). Actually paying money and upkeep on Ashigaru is even less historical than whatever 'silly' stats katana have, since weapons stats are entirely arbitrary. -Giving jomon troops less hp than other nations is silly. -I dunno what you find so silly about stats. Samurai are equivalent to knights, which tend to have 12/12 att/def. Elite samurai could certainly be even better than that, so 13/13 isn't so out of the question. The difference is that most of jomon's lineup is entirely 'elite' troops plus conscripted militia, which is weird from a modern perspective but historically describes a number of armies quite well. (see most armies of the early middle ages). (FWIW, since all katana are master crafted, the appropriate benchmark of comparison probably isn't standard weapons, but magic weapons, where its 3 att 2 def doesn't look too out of place at all.) |
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While we're on the subject of realism, given that spiders can only really move by pumping blood into their legs... giant spiders are incredibly unrealistic as moving creatures and should definitely be made immobile.
Also given that Jomon's currency of the time was food, wouldn't it make more sense if all of jomon's units cost 0 gold? |
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Adept, there are many more or less overpowered things in Dominions. In fact I doubt its creators even tried to balance many things. Leaving them to be balanced by diplomacy and metagaming instead.
But you are making a huge mistake if you think Jomons weapons are among those things. Lets compare the katana with the broad sword. On a cursory look the katana would win hands down. The stats being 6/3/2/3 vs 6/0/1/2. But wait! The Katana is a two-handed weapon were as the broad sword only use a single hand! That means the broad sword user will have a shield of some sort. That would make the stats 6/3/2/3 vs 6/0/4/2. Plus enc 1 and aprox air shield 40% for the broad sword. I'd say that very comparable. A better weapon to compare the Japanese weapons against is the Great Sword. It is also two handed and have the stats 9/1/2/4? Versus the katana it loses 2 points of attack and gain 3 points of damage. Thats slightly worse but still comparable. The only Japanese weapon that have a clear edge is the naginata witch is a halberd with 1 point better attack. But it only comes on a unit that no one ever buy for other reasons, or is capitol only. To compensate for this they get the worthless Yari spear. Witch is a nerfed version of the pike. Furthermore, I was under the impression that Jomon was one of the weaker LA nations. Not THE weakest, mind you. But still a challenge nation. Even Agartha will probably bowl you over once they get the spell Fire Arrows and some good indie archers. |
Re: Balance mod project
[quote=Soyweiser;779246]
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As for balancing, Jomon is getting balanced by the same cost -> skill equations as everything else, and same goes for the oriental weapons. If they need more oomph, that can be done by adjusting the mages and priests, not by having unbalancedly skilled and cheap (in gold) troops. |
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How about long bows?
I've always been a fan of long bows, and I'd like to see someone finally introduce some realism where they are AP like crossbows. Maybe for balance up the resource requirement, to reflect the extensive training long bow men partook in? |
Re: Balance mod project
[quote=Corinthian;779413]Adept, there are many more or less
A better weapon to compare the Japanese weapons against is the Great Sword. It is also two handed and have the stats 9/1/2/4? Versus the katana it loses 2 points of attack and gain 3 points of damage. Thats slightly worse but still comparable. [quote] This is exactly what I did. There is absolutely no sense in the huge attack and defence modifiers in the katana vs. the greatsword. Don't worry nay sayers, nobody is forcing you to use my fixes when they are done. But with that, I'm gonna make them fair and honest, and won't be swayed with logic that says Jomon needs super weapons to compensate for their suckiness. As for them having less hp, they are supposed to be smaller than most nations. On the flipside they have more morale and more precision. That's a perfectly reasonable tradeoff. Jomon are missing some extra hitpoints form their commanders, and I'm also giving some of their people standards (as the graphics suggest they should have). Anyway, wait for the release before you complain :cool: |
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Incidentally, what do you guys think about adjusting the slings a bit. Here's a reference site: http://slinging.org/
I'd drop the damage a bit, and reduce the accuracy penalty to -1. |
Re: Balance mod project
Slings are far more difficult to master than bows. I'm not sure that the -2 penalty is enough. This is why slinging is not nearly as popular today as archery.
I believe the reason that ancient slingers were so effective even relative to their bow armed contemporaries was that sling training was both far cheaper and much more accessible. Any mother could make a battle worthy sling for her son in little time, say a lazy afternoon. The boy could then load it with stones picked from a local stream, the best of which could be passed on to his great grandson. A bow built for warfare and each arrow it fired on the other hand required substantial investment of time and materials from likely more than one specially skilled craftsman. As for damage, my understanding was that slings tended to fire larger projectiles and at higher velocities. Though, as the projectile was much more blunt they had lower PSI at the point of impact and, therefore, less penetration. Further complicating the issue would be that there was arguably much more variation in sling stones than with arrows as the former could range from irregular stones shaped by river water to purpose made ceramic balls or even oblong lead projectiles that spun like a bullet in flight. Some sources I've read also said that among some armies used stave slings almost exclusively. These two handed devices were capable of throwing much larger projectiles but were even harder to master. I'm not sure if any of this helps. I just felt like sharing some of my research on the subject. |
Re: Balance mod project
Thanks! That's very useful info.
But don't you know that bows are more difficult to master than crossbows? Especially the long bow? So, by your logic, there should be crossbow clubs all over the place now. If sling bullets are truly spinning and not just tumbling, won't they veer off to the left or right, like a golf slice? Does it depend on the material, like if it had dimples (like a golf ball)? A properly fletched arrow will spin in flight and not slice off to the right, which is why I think long bows are far superior. I think you will get much better penetration out of a long bow arrow than any sling bullet. |
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That's a fair point about crossbows. But, to me slings and bows share a similar atavistic quality that crossbows just don't. Perhaps I am wrong, I suspect the same is true for many others. Though, if the human mind was somehow wired to greatly close the gap between the gap in learning curves between slings and bows, bows may still hold the edge in popularity for other reasons. I myself would likely be a sling man. I certainly tried and will likely do so again.
My understanding on spinning sling stones though was that the oblong ones spun with the axis along the direction of flight. I don't know how this was accomplished, if it is 100% reliable information, or if other sling stones spun as well. But, not all arrows are fletched to spin. I've seen Native American arrows in a museum with what looked to me to be an attempt at helical fletching while plenty of modern arrows have straight. A properly tuned arrow should fly pretty straight regardless. I have no idea what was more common on ancient battlefields. But, I shared the same conclusion as you that sling stones should not penetrate as well as arrows. |
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Yeah, with a sling bullet, it has its own momentum, and that's it.
With long bows, at the point of penetration, behind the head you've got a great big long shaft pushing the head forward. I suspect the depth of penetration is proportional to the momentum of the shaft. There are other factors affecting penetration too, like the shape of the head. Also, the rigidity of shaft affects penetration. Comparing crossbows to long bows, the shaft is not nearly as long, but it is more rigid, |
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I'm almost done! Just need a banner, and tweak a few things and I'll be ready to publish this.
I did run into very strange trouble though. I turned the Yari into a regular spear used two handed (because it is). Damage 5, attack 1, range 4, and I gave this weapon to all the poor bastard militia who only have a spear and no shield. It won't make much diff, but there is no way people with no shield would use a spear one handed. Anyway, for some reason the mechanic that gives Jomon Ashigaru with the "religious zeal" random event got corrupted. How strange. Does anybody know how that thing is handled? |
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Can you guys help me figure out all the troops that are armed just with a spear (no shield, no second weapon).
I have: * basic militia * C'tis militia * Slave (Mictlan) * Atlantian Militia (Coral spear) * Raptor * Spire Horn Warrior (Ice Lance) |
Re: Balance mod project
Scout also and prolly some raised undeads ?
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Yeah I think the "classical" scout has just a spear. Arco uses this scout.
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Re: Balance mod project
Thanks guys.
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Jesus how many units the game has who just have a one-handed-spear, and nothing in the other hand. Not only that, but they have all sorts of nationals like basalt spears and fomori bronze spears.
I'm using weapon numbers from 690 upwards. I hope this range is free. Now is a good time to suggest another range if that is already in use. |
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I have many of the popular mods on my server.
I went to the mods directory and did a grep unit *.dm |grep 690 and got nothing. I also tried 691 and 695 But isnt that in range of what is in the game already? A numbre of mods use the 16xx area. Particularly the CBM mods. But it seems (so far) to quit at 1679. That might work if you use 1695 and up. |
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You REALLY need to be using Edi's database for this kind of problem. A slightly out-of-date version (but will be fine for this) is here (I am pretty sure he has released a more recent version but I failed to find it in 30 seconds):
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42819 Also you may be interested in Sombre's Mod Compatibility database - see here (and follow the first download link): http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/...?showtopic=317 |
Re: Balance mod project
it was mentioned on IRC that:
japanese spears are way superior to western spears because of the materials. the steel is superior. and ninja training was mentioned as a possible source of increased skil. since all oriental peoples have it. http://www.hanamiweb.com/azumi.jpg |
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Lol, japanese steel was superior? It's the exact opposite PristlyMan, I'm sorry to say. We can talk about this at length if you want to, but the short story is that Japan never got the technology (from china) to produce high quality steel. The laborous folding and hammering of the katana is a way to hammer-purify the steel. It also drives away the carbon, so the best katana's are actually the ones that needed to be folded the least.
Yari is just the japanese word for a spear. The important thing is though, that the spears are used with two hands, so they should have the bonuses and damage appropriate for two handed weapons (attack +1, damage 5, length 4). The same goes for any other troop that just has a spear, as they will use it two handed. |
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Thanks for the links Gandalf and Lama
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I would think a defense bonus for using a spear two handed would be appropriate also. Assuming it was a normal length spear rather than a pike, I would think it would be similar to a quarter staff in that respect.
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I've got to assume you are just trolling here because a quick google of "katana versus sword" will demonstrate that katanas are vastly superior to all swords except maybe Jedi lightsabers. Quote:
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http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3878578/spears.jpg
:angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel :angel |
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Yeah, best troll award. I fell for it too, sorry guys.
Can somebody remind me how I turn a weapon into a bonus weapon? I mean, I'd like the Ninja to keep the shuriken even if you give him a different sword. |
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#bonus
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!! I knew it was something like that. Was I just too tired to see it in the modding guide, or is it not there? Well which ever way it is, thanks llamabeast, you're a pal. :)
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Any update on where this is at? Enquiring minds want to know :-)
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Actually I just put in the last line. Now if there aren't any mistakes I just need to post it here. I guess I should start a new thread for it.
It will be a 1.0 release, so I'll be grateful for any mistakes you guys and gals spot. |
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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47844 this is the thread. For anybody who reads this years later. :D
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Thanks Soyweiser, I forgot to do that.
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Sorry, wrong thread.
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