Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Tarts are the best SC in the game, and by far the cheapest.

Why is that?

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

they're crazy, you need a powerful death mage to summon them, and they crawl out of the pit completely ****ed up.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

I believe they also can no longer have Gift of Reason cast on them, so you've only got a 20% chance of actually getting a SC out of them.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

umm, no. Is that CBM or something?

I wish people would stop acting like CBM=Dominions 3

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Darn, wrong thread, this seems to be about Dom 3... :(

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

dom3 drinking game:
- If somebody mentions CBM in a threat out of the blue, drink!
- If somebody complains about CBM not being standard, drink!
- If somebody mentions penetration, drink!

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Much less. You have a 20% chance to get *some* commander, who may as well be a feebleminded armess monstra. Meanwhile, you keep wasting mage-turns, probably 2 with some very expensive boosters.

When CBM nerfs something, it makes sure you dont use it ever again. :)

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

In vanilla they are the most cost-effective after blood uniques, and most easily spammable. Hardly the best. Shame that they are all bonkers and micro-heavy. I'd suggest playing with CBM anyway. The next version will include tools to make tartarians usable again (and not cheap). And it includes choices to do something else than tartarians, besides clamspam and wish seraphs/mandehas/whatever.

also: CBM, it's not standard. It includes references to penetration.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

[quote=NooBliss;780560]Why doesn't CBM work harder to make the other spells more useful? How about bog beasts that can really do some damage???!!!

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

You mean like the improved summoning spells? Combat spells that arrive quicker? Even the drakes spells are viable in cbm.

Bog beasts is the only spell that has not really been improved. Because it already does something useful, summon 3 po aura units for 3 gems. Very spammable. Deadly against glass cannon sacred nations.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Bog beasts shouldn't be made uber. They're fine as they are, summonable chaff with an interesting ability.
Balancing does not mean making each and every spell able to win the game on its own.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

There's many unbalanced and even useless spells in Dominions3. The CBM helps some of the useless spells. The Tartarians are still overpowered, but at least the devs did add shattered soul to their traits.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Even sans mods, Tartarians are not as good as people sometimes say, although they are quite good. I've been playing this game for four years and I still haven't ever summoned one, myself--they never quite seem to be worth it, when I could just save up a little longer and get a wonderful wonderful demilich! And also, when any old golem with quickness, a ring of the warrior, and a holy scourge can kill one in a few hits.

Tartarians may be overpowered, but that doesn't mean they aren't overrated.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

I notice that your hypothetical golem is specifically loaded out to be an anti-Tartarian unit. That is a pretty good indicator of how good Tartarians are, as everything can be countered if you have the right counter. That Golem for instance - it is asking to be magic - dueled by some cheap astral mage. Then there are the anti construct weapons that can probably land a kill if given to so much as a Bane.

This isn't at all like some sort of low grade thug, or really low end SC that can pretty much be killed with whatever you have at hand. Take a Harbinger, your hypothetical golem could be equipped with the anti-tartarian load out above and probably still kill it. It could kill it with chaff clearing equipment. A Tartarian could do likewise, as could a Seraph, or a Chayot, or any other high end SC. When something needs its weaknesses specifically exploited even once something like a Golem is in play, that thing is clearly effective.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Yes. They are effective, and they aren't the universally superior game-winning units that the talk about them sometimes seems to suggest they are.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

You have never summoned one and you say they are overrated? maybe you ought to try them once?

besides, anything that golem could do, a tart clops could do better, without the weakness of an S mage dueling him.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

I've never summoned one, but I've charmed and enslaved several. THAT was cost-effective. They're good units when you pay for them; they're great units when you get them for free! Also I guess I've killed several dozen of them. I know what they can do.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Teh problem with tarts is not the cost, just that only 2 nations can reliably use them. You need the chalice or GoH.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

If you get a Tartarian commander, it will be irreversibly crazy and do a lot of pillaging. It is a ***** to call one and have him or her pillage your capital on the first turn. They also do other crazy things that keep you from moving them from time to time. The only solution is a slave collar, which requires blood magic ability and wipes out any magic ability they possess.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Does a slave collar really defeat insanity/shattered soul?

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

It looks like feeblemind does.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Why are tarts so cheap.

lol, that's a funny name if you think about it.

Because they're ugly and being cheap is the only way to get any?
Because they prefer men spending the money for them?
Because the government is offering subsidies on flour, eggs, and whatever makes pie filling?

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Don't summon them in your cap. By the point in the game when you can realistically set conj 9 as your next research target, you should have several labs. Pick one in a fort in a low income province. Or, if you have ready cash, pick your lowest income/population province and build a lab and a fort (not a temple). Move your high D caster(s) there and you have your tart factory.

One of the great values of tarts is their varied magic. Tartarian SCs are the ones you don't have better plans for. Don't put slave collars on them unless they are already feebleminded, but if feeblemind ... Oh well, just don't use slave collars on them. ;)

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Their value to me has always been diversity, As SCs they aren't strictly that much better on a cost basis then other choices (assuming EDM or later CBM on), but for diversity they have no equal. They do take a lot of investment and time though as compared to the other summon and done SCs/casters, and with the no GoR in latest CBM they aren't really worth it, and marginal at best with grail or GoH.

They'll sooner or later kill the temple and do 100+ unrest hits (uncommon, but not that uncommon, especially if you have 3+ tarts in a prov), usually a good idea to designate a wasteland or super low pop province as a holding area for tarts (if you intend to build them up), stick a lab and either a fort and/or A+N dome it (or bad things can happen to them).

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

The next CBM will make GoR on Tarts possible again, but at full price (20 nature gems), whereas GoR for non-undead is reduced to 5 gems IIRC.

Re: Why are Tarts so cheap
 

Now that I like.
GoR is cheap to play around with alternatives, but still available at high cost for Tarts.

This makes Tarts viable even without the Chalice/GoH, since you only have to pay full price (Gate + GoR) on the ones you want to use.