Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - tratorix/Agartha & Valerius/Vanheim win
 

There's a new release of CBM and I'd like to give the new and improved Van a try. I figure we'll start the game sometime next week in case there are any bugs discovered over the next few days. Please note that this is a no diplomacy game.


Settings

Age: EA
Players: 7
Diplomacy: None
Victory condition: hold 4 caps for 3 turns
Hosting: llamaserver
Hosting interval: 24 hours up to turn 20, 48 hours up to turn 40, 72 hours from then on
Mods: CBM 1.92
Map: Custom map by BrodieSWR
HoF: 15
All other settings default


Roster

ghoul31 - Hinnom
Korwin (previously BrodieSWR) - Yomi
Larz (previously LongBrodie) - Tir na n'Og
Ossa - Ulm
PriestyMan - R'lyeh
tratorix - Agartha
Valerius - Vanheim

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Hinnom

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

I am new to the forums and I have been looking for a new game to join. Can I join even though it will be my first multiplayer game? I have played lots of single player and read a few AARs. I am familiar with all of the game mechanics and spells as well.

If so, I'd like to try out Yomi.

I use the 1.84 in SP.

Has 1.91 made any strong changes to them?

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

First off, welcome to the Dominions community! :)

As far as joining the game goes, I play for fun so I'm ok with it but I should mention a few things. It sounds like you have a good grasp of the game, as well as CBM, but keep in mind that MP is very different than SP. And without diplomacy you can't gather allies to try to even the odds. In the end, the worst that can happen is you have an early exit and learn some things (and hopefully have fun). It can have an impact on other players if one player is defeated too easily but I'm willing to rely on the other players realizing that and taking action (of course they may not help the person being attacked but rather try to get their own share of that player's provinces ;)). And of course you may do well - some new players are competitive from very early on.

Btw, if you're interested in getting advice from vets (without it being posted in a public forum for your opponents to see) you can try the Dominions IRC channel. This is pretty much the way to fast track your MP knowledge.

So, it's up to you. I'll reserve a spot for you and if you'd like to give it a shot, feel free.

Also, the only comments specifically regarding Yomi/Shin/Jomon I see in llamabeast's change log are the following:

- Removed national hp nerf (standard Jomonese had hp 9, which was widely disliked)
- Fixed inconsistency in kami encumbrance (all now have enc 0, by analogy to elementals)

But there may be other changes to things like scales or magic items that you'll need to consider the impact of.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Wow! Thanks for the long reply Valerius! I'll try my best in this game. I enjoy putting up a big fight, and I am not a total noob. I am aware that players online will try to use every trick up their sleeve, included power gaming, which I'll plan ahead for.

The guides on this site are very useful, and give a lot of insight into the staple strategies for each nation.

I found the link to the CBM 1.91 changelog, but thanks for the quote.

See everybody in game when this gets started! I already have my pretender designed using the new CBM.

:D

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Welcome aboard, then! :)

There's definitely good info there and on the wiki but keep in mind that most of the guides were written for earlier versions of CBM or vanilla so you'll have take that into account. Still, the basic character of nations (lending themselves to bless, scales, etc.) as well as the magic paths are relevant. Once the list of nations is finalized you may find it helpful to start up a game with those six nations, setting each to human controlled, and you can conveniently review the units you'll be facing (and even run some test battles if you want).

You're way ahead of me then - I just started testing Van and considering builds. And speaking of testing, SP and MP are very different - but the beginning of the game, when you are conquering indies, is the same. So you'll definitely want to run test games to make sure your build is getting you off to a fast enough start to get your share of provinces.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

I'd like to join with EA Ulm as they also had a few chances.

I have quite a bad history with no diplo games as a few in here might remember, but that was due to an abnormal amount of stress - I'm having more time for my games again now so I'm quite confident that I'll manage to remember the rules;)

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Lol, I remember reading something about that. :) Welcome to the game.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

I'd like to see if this CBM has made Agartha usable.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Welcome! We just need one more player.

I spent some time looking at maps yesterday but haven't found anything yet. Ideally I'd like 65-75 provinces with perhaps a few water provinces to break up the terrain. I should note that Sixlands is a very good map but I've played so many games on it that I'd like something else. Suggestions are welcome. Also, I'm willing to edit another map if there's a section of larger map that would fit our purposes.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

I would be tempted to join this if I were allowed to play R'lyeh - are you set on the no-water-nations thing? No worries if so.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Hi! I would like to join playing Tir na Nog, if you'll have me. I've played a few multiplayer games so far, but I'm still fairly new. I'm BrodieSWR's brother, but I hope you won't hold that against me, especially since this is a no-diplo game.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Well, I kind of was more flexible from my default "no water nations, no Ashdod/Hinnom" terms this game anyway, so why not? But I don't want to change the terms on players after they've signed up so is everyone ok with adding a water nation? For that matter, does anyone else want to switch to a water nation?

Btw, I know there's been efforts to improve the improve the interaction between land/water nations so it might be worth checking this out. Part of my dislike is I got tired of seeing the water nations fight it out early and then the winner sat there clamming all game. That and the fact that I got destroyed trying to attack Atlantis when playing Van (little did I know that the answer was storm demons ;)).


Sure, you're welcome to join. The only thing I'll mention is that if you and your brother are playing on the same computer (and therefore have the same serial number) we'll run into problems with a license violation.


Llama and LongBrodie, I hope both of you decide to play. No map has been decided on so 7 works as well as 6.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

No worry, my brother lives in America, I live in Brazil. :P

So there won't be any problems with serial keys causing violation problems.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Recruiting!
 

Great, I've added add him to the roster. It's a funny thing; I play TNN so much that if I don't play them and someone else does I feel almost like someone took "my" nation. :p


Llama, I've tentatively added you to the roster. I don't think anyone will object as most players don't have my issues with water nations. So it will be mainly up to whether you decide to play (hopefully so :)). But someone may want to also play a water nation so that will of course factor into the choice of map.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

I've been doing test games with the new changes added to CBM 1.91.

Agartha was changed a lot! Their final spell summons 3 crazy SC pretenders, and their new spells are pretty nifty. It's good to see them getting some love.

Speaking of which, Llamabeast, do you think that maybe, just maaaaaaybe, Yomi could get one itsy-bitsy tiny change in the next update to CBM?

Their sorcerers need a tiny change:

Currently they have 1 Earth and 1 Death with a 100% chance of receiving +1 to Air/Earth/Fire/Death.

Do you think that the 1 Death could be change to 1 Air? As it stands now, the Hannyas basically trump the sorcerers in most ways. With this one small change, the sorcerers would be a viable alternative because they would have a 25% chance of having 2 Air/1 Earth, which would open them up as fantastic, yet fragile support mages for the armies of Yomi, acting as casters for all kinds of nice spells such as Wind Guide, Lightning Bolt, Aim, and Contact Dai-tengu. They could also forge many items that would benefit Yomi greatly, and expand their options against certain nations whom they have many, many problems fighting against.

As it stands, Yomi's theme is about reckless and violent magical power on selfish, greedy demons, with lots of offense, and little defense. This one small change would open them up for more of their thematic demonic violence, and reduce some of their crippling redundancy.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to discuss this. I think I'll post this as a new thread in the main discussion forum later.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

I would suggest posting your comments regarding Yomi in the CBM discussion thread in the mods subforum rather than the main forum. Though thematically that seems a fairly significant change from the core paths of FED, as all of your cheap research mages can now cast orb lightning (or lightning bolt after casting summon storm power) and a quarter can cast lightning bolt/thunderstrike.

Which reminds me that I need to look over the rest of the changes in 1.91. So far I've only reviewed the glamour nations and MA Man.

I'm going to PM llama to see if he's decided to participate and also whether we should wait for another CBM release.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Mmm, good point Valerius, I didn't think about the CBM thread, :P. Durp!

But anyway, it could see how it could be a bit too strong, but I just felt like Yomi gets jipped seeing as how they have a whole slew of "national" spells that they can't even access reasonably well such as Contact Nushi and Contact Dai-tengu. Air magic is SO vital to Yomi that the fact that Air 2 Dai-Oni are basically godsends makes Air a NECESSITY on your pretender, severely limiting your builds and options.

Maybe if they were made a little more expensive to compensate?

Anyway, I'll continue this in the other thread as you suggested. Thanks for your point of view, it made me think twice. :D

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

No problem. :) And llama may agree with you but I know he, and qm before him, like to stay with a nation's theme. Yomi has traditionally been considered one of the weaker EA nations (not sure if things have improved for them in recent CBM releases) so if that's still the case llama might well be open to a boost - but he'd likely want to make sure if was thematic.

But I see what you're saying about having trouble summoning national summons. Not sure if the idea was that you had to either get lucky with randoms and/or make sure your pretender can summon them but there have been other cases where CBM made it easier for mages to cast national summons so that's worth bringing up when you post in the CBM thread.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Hello! Very sorry to mess you around Valerius but I think I will drop out of this one after all. May just be because I'm knackered today, but I think I need to be careful not to overcommit. Really sorry about that.

I'll release CB1.92 this evening. Hopefully that should be it for a while (fingers crossed!). Not too many bugs reported over the last few days.

BrodieSWR - I don't know Yomi very well and have no opinion offhand. The best thing to do as Valerius suggested is stimulate debate in the main thread.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

No problem, maybe next time. :)

Great, thanks for that. Everyone please download 1.92 from here and use that to create your pretenders (there probably aren't any changes between 1.91 and 1.92 that would affect pretenders but might as well play it safe).

I'll set up the game on the server soon. The main thing is we'll need to decide on a map. Something in the range of 60-72 provinces would be good. Maybe a little water to break up the map but not too much. Btw, if anyone comes across a good candidate that's only problem is too much water please mention it as we can either make the seas dead (i.e. they generate no gold or gems and don't allow units to be recruited) or even eliminate some/all of the water provinces completely.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Elmokki created a map called Galadia. This map is much larger than what we're looking for but it seemed like we could take a couple of the smaller islands and use those. What do you think of the attached sample? The island on the bottom left would be connected to the larger island by three ports and there are also two water provinces between the small and large island. If my province count is correct, the map would have 61 land provinces and 2 water provinces. We could either set fixed start locations or take a gamble on random starts.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Looks interesting, but I think that map would have more than 2 water provinces.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

I am using RanDom v2.03 to create some really, really nice maps! I am going to tweak them to make them more fair, and place some preset starting locations and when I am done, I will upload them here for you guys to look at and to tell me if you want to play them or not.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Ok, after generating maybe 100 maps, I have selected the 5 that I think are the best aesthetically.

I can edit these anyway that you guys like. The provinces that have half land/half water can be set to "fresh water" provinces, which is fun always fun.

Vote on which one you like the most, and I will edit/clean the map for fairness and balance and then we can play!

They are named as follows:

Odin1
Odin2
Odin3
Odin4
Odin5

Please look at all, and chooes just one!

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Wow, thanks for doing that! :) I've played around with RanDom a bit and it's a nice program. I especially liked one of Gandalf's preset color schemes.

Looking at the maps, I'd lean towards 4 or 3 but unfortunately I think they all have too much forest. I think it would be good to bump down the forest province percentage and maybe also the mountain percentage (water looks fine). Btw, I don't think the Dom map generator places mountain provinces, only border mountains, so we'd want to manually change some to mountain after the map has been generated (most can stay border mountain but we should have some true mountain provinces).

As far as the modified Galadia goes, there would only be two water provinces on the bottom left of the map (marked by the red lines). The rest of the water is just background color and not actual provinces. It also looks kind of rough on the shadow around the islands since I just did a quick cut and paste for demonstration purposes.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

I have to go to work now, but I'll do some more maps when I get home tonight!

I'll lower the amount of mountains and forests too.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Ok, sounds good. :) Btw, since you said you generated 100 maps I assume you're batch processing these (it's a lot less tedious that way)?

Also, are they in the area of 60-75 provinces? It's a little tough to tell from the JPEGs.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Any chance on slipping into that Ryleh slot Valerius?

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Sure, I don't think BrodieSWR has begun working on another batch of maps yet.

Brodie, this will make things a bit trickier because we'll need to increase the water percentage and we'll want the water provinces mostly centralized, rather than all over the map. In terms of number of provinces, since there's only one water nation and only one amphibious land nation I'd say the water nation should have an equal or slightly lower number of provinces than the land nation average.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Well, I need to go to bed, and I've been working on this all night, but I should be able to finish it this afternoon.

Here is what I have so far. I am currently making it in photoshop:

If you guys have patience, we can play this game on a really nice, custom map. :P

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Here is an update just to show my progress to you guys!

Please remember that the quality is being reduced by the JPEG conversion process on the forums when you upload the file!

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

The map is finished! I have to leave for work now, so I don't have time to set the provinces/neighbors/start locations etc. right now, but I will do it when I get home tonight!

Here is the semi-finished product for you guys to look at if you want to while you wait. Feel free to load it up in the Map Editor to check it out!

I also included a small preview image. Remember, the quality is reduced. :P

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Very nice! And it looks like it will play quite well. Thanks for going to all the effort to do this. :)

I feel kind of bad asking this but I think we may want to move the top three, or even five, water provinces to the bottom of the map. One of the issues for water nations is keeping their dominion in their provinces. If the water provinces are in more of a block, rather than strung out, it helps them do this. Sorry, I should have been more clear about that.

Another good thing is that each water province won't border quite as many land provinces as now.

But if PriestyMan is ok with the current setup we can also leave the map as-is.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Well i would much rather have more lake-like water, but i'm not going to complain too terribly much.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Well, if you're ok with it then let's make things easy for BrodieSWR and leave the map as-is.

It occurs to me that as a no diplo game it might be good to have victory conditions. What about holding four caps for three turns?

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.91, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Btw, the thread title says CBM 1.91, but i assume it will use CBM 1.92?

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Yes, we'll use 1.92.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

PriestyMan, are you definitely set on playing R'lyeh? I've been thinking over my bias against water nations and I find I reach the same conclusion as before - that I just don't like the way water nations are implemented in Dom. While it's no longer the case that you can conquer the water and clam the whole game, you still have tough penalties for troops fighting underwater. CBM has helped with the attack/defense penalties but the encumbrance issue is even worse and that still exists. But the biggest problem (by far) is that you have to forge a water breathing item for every mage you want to bring underwater and since most nations don't have a forge bonus that just got more expensive. Meanwhile R'lyeh's commanders and units are now amphibious and don't have that cost to deal with. Really, it just doesn't seem much fun to me.

I'm guessing you and llama would like to test the changes to R'lyeh but can I can convince you to switch to a land nation for this game? I'm fine with powerful nations being in the game (heck, take Niefel if you want) but I just can't get enthusiastic about water nations.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Well, if PriestlyMan chooses to play a land nation, it's gonna be a little difficult placing the start locations, unless of course you want to let them be random...

I drew the map with the intention of having 6 land players and 1 (optional) player in the ocean.

The current start locations were hand placed by me to ensure that all capitals were at least 4-5 turns away from each other and that they each had a minimum of 4 surrounding provinces and at least 1 farm for income.

There are currently 69 land provinces and 9 sea provinces. I can set 7 land spawns, but just to be fair, I need to warn you guys that it will be a very, very fast and brutal game, with many early conflicts, especially without diplomacy.

So it's your choice guys! Just let me know!

And by the way, I can edit the map... but I'd rather not. I already flattened the main .PSD file in Photoshop, so it wouldn't look as nice and might have seems somewhere in the ocean.

But, if you really want to, I can! You'd just have to wait another one to two days for it to be finished. :P

Anyway, everybody let me know what the deal is, and I'll set the start locations!

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Ah, the heck with it. I can put up with my dislike of water nations for one game. ;) And you've already spent plenty of time on the map so let's go with this version.

Btw, I think it would be worth posting this map in the maps & mods subforum as others might like playing on it as well (maybe post two versions - one with water provinces and one without).

I'll go setup the game on the server now.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Ok, the game is setup on the server (the name is Myth1 since it needed to be at least 5 characters). At the moment I just have a placeholder map listed - once BrodieSWR finishes the map we'll switch to that. Quickstart is off so the game won't start automatically before we can change the map.

As regards victory points, if you control 4 capitols for 3 turns then announce that you've won. If anyone would like that verified we can have a third party look over the turns to confirm it (please save those turns once you've taken your fourth cap).

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Alright, it's done!

Download the map everybody, and let's get this thing started!

I am going to post the final version here and in the Map Sub-forum.

The name of the map is:

POST DILUVIUM

In Latin, this means "After the Flood". I wrote a nice backstory for the map, so please read it.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Wait! I have created a new version with no fixed start locations!

I think it is more fair because I will know the locatoin of all capital cities!

The only provinces that I set to "no start" in this new version are the ones that have 3 or less neighboring provinces and that are unfair, such as wasteland and swamp.

Please check this one as well.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

I personally dont really mind, but that is a pretty tight map. 11 provs/player will make early land wars vicious. I like that usually, but i figured i would mention it

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

I have a current game with approx. an 8 prov/player average. It's been brutal - and very fun. I don't expect this to be quite as intense (11 provs is enough that there is some logic to getting some research done before fighting) but it should still be action packed. The main problem is you'll be sitting in the water waiting to snipe provinces from weakened land nations. ;) And it does pay off later in the game as the finalists won't have as much micro to deal with (that alone is a huge selling point IMO).

BrodieSWR, very nice job on the map! Thanks again for doing that. It looks like it will be quite fun to play. As far as fixed vs. random starts if we go with fixed starts we can just post a JPEG indicating all the start locations. I'm fine with either approach but I lean towards using the fixed starts since you obviously put considerable thought into their placement.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

It seems like there's no objections to using the fixed start locations version of the map. You can of course fire up a test game to check out the locations but in case anyone finds it helpful I've attached a JPEG to the first post that also indicates the starts.

I'll upload the map to the server shortly. I'm going to remove the space in the filename because I think that might cause a problem.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Well... I think with fixed start locations on a map this small, it is a little bad.

Seeing as how the capitals will be only 4-5 spaces away, someone could create a dragon or some other SC, and simply fly it to the enemy and crush them on turn 3.

:-\

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

That's true, but since this is a small map even with random starts you could probably send your pretender off in a random direction and have a decent chance of spotting a cap to target the next turn. And of course if fails you've really put yourself in a hole spending all those points on a wasted effort. But really, I'm fine either way.

I've uploaded the image to the server and I'll upload both map files so they are both available to us and other games.

Re: Myth - EA, CBM 1.92, no diplo - Closed, design pretenders
 

Brodie, I was going to link the server to your thread in the maps & mods forum rather than this thread. Could change the version of the map you have there to remove the space in the filename? That way the map that people download will match what the server has.