DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

I recently found what seems to be an excellent and detailed 12-scenario SP3 campaign of this epic battle.

I had an opportunity to visit the battle site in August, and seeing the grounds and the surrounding hills really brought home the deperate situation those Paras and Foreign Legionaires faced in that valley.
It has put the hook in me to see if I could do any better against Vo Nguyen Giap than DeCastries did.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any WinSPMBT compatible scenarios covering the major actions at DBP.
Only this SP3 one.
How difficult would it be to convert it to MBT?

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

You'd have to remake them in winSPMBT and i don't think there is a magic converter to do this. And even if there is one, you'd have to deal with oobs, scale(wasn't sp3 brigade or so scaled?) and the map. But there are some scenarios on this theme for MBT :)

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Ah, that's unfortunate, but not entirely unexpected.

Is there any chance that the maps or any of the unit info can be extracted from the files?
Its clear that the original maker put in a lot of work and research, so being able to make use of this info would be much easier than starting from scratch.

Yes, there are a couple of Indochina themed scenarios, but strangely none dealing with the main actions around DienBienPhu.

Considering the size, historical importance, and sheer drama of this battle, I'm really surprised that it hasn't been dealt with in the game.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

If you can get ahold of "Steel Panthers World at War" there is a DienBienPhu campaign in it (tho it's really just a few linked battles rather then a campaign).

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Thanks for the suggestion Suhiir.
I have that, but it doesn't seem to me to be a very close representation of the battle. Besides its pretty large scale and the 800x600 is a bit limiting.
It would be amazing to get a birds eye view of the different firebases at 1680x1050!

The campaign I found for SP3 seems to be a lot more meticulously researched, from what I can tell from the accompanying txt.
Too bad it seems to be unusable in MBT!

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

You(or anyone else that has sp3) could open up the campaign and note things down then adapt it to MBT, this would take some less research, but still a lot of time.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Since the "battle" was in actual fact a siege over several months then it really does not fit any sort of single-battle scenario. A campaign would therefore be best (With no or little repair/reinforcement). The campaign could then showcase a few key "active" assault scenarios perhaps.

There is quite simply no sane way to write any form of conversion utility for SP3 to SP1.
- Each hex is 250 metres, not 50. i.e. about 5x5 WinSPMBT hexes per SP3 hex.
- The contour system is totally different (SP3 had just 3 hill levels, we have 15).
- Each unit is potentially a platoon (2-5 elements). So formation structure does not quite marry up.
- SP3 turn time is also about 5 or ten minutes? - so ~ 5 or 10 times the turn allowance.

So all you can do is take notes and then manually create a map making each SP3 map hex a 5x5 WinSPMBT matrix (and fleshing out the individual detail thereof) and then manually recreate the SP3 command structure etc.

Andy

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Thanks Andy, totally understand the difficulties in conversion.

My question at this point is if there is any way to extract the maps and data from the SP3 files in order to use use as a model to base the new maps and units on.
That would save a lot of time and effort, if so.

I'm afraid I don't have a copy of SP3 or I would fire that up and grab some screens.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

From my original post:
It's up to you to do it manually. Multiply the SP3 map size by 5 and create a new map. Plot each SP3 hex into a 5x5 matrix of 50m hexes (you may want to lay out the flat WinSPMBT map in 5x5 grids of alternate colours - using, say long grass and plain).

Andy

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Alternatively, you could get some maps on the area if you want a much more precise one, you can get amazing detail in winSPMBT if you can use the tools at your disposal. :)
There's this french site about it, there's an interesting read, i'm not sure if all the website was translated into english, i couldn't find any maps though.
http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/index.htm

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Thanks iCaMp,
Great site, with a bunch of pics I haven't seen before.
Yeah its looking like the only option is to start from scratch, as I finally dug up an old copy of SP3 and installed it, but couldn't get it to run. No short cuts there, it seems!

I have some pretty decent reference maps (Martin Woodrow's, 'The Last Valley' is a particularly good source) and fairly detailed oob's for both the French and VM for the period March-May 1954.
I also have some pics I took of the area last month, but they won't be of much more than general use as the look of the area has changed significantly in the last half century.

I suspect though, that it will be a while before I am able to devote the necessary time to a project of this magnitude.
Heck, its going to take me a fair bit of time to get familar with the tools before I can even get started!

I don't suppose any of the fine scenario designers/mappers here would be interested in taking a shot at putting together a campaign for this?
I would be very pleased to hand over the info I have and take care of any additional research needed, if there were someone keen to handle the nuts and bolts of putting it into the game.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

I'm looking into doing a DBP scenario or two. Right now, I'm trying to dig up enough tactical info to do something with the March 22 clearing of Route 41 through Ban Kho Lai from Isabelle to the main French position. Meanwhile, here is a good topo map of DBP http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Hi RazGator,
Thanks for the link.
I actually already have a copy of the topo map that Ray Smith based that one on. Unfortunately it's a USGS map from 1966, and it seems that the terrain in the area, especially the course of the Nam Youn, has changed a fair bit since '54.
In the years after the battle there was a tremendous amount of construction also, so the road lines also are a bit off from where they ran during the battle.
Ray also seems to be a bit out with his placements of some of the firebases.

I've been piecing together a number of maps/photos/diagrams from March-April '54, and attempting to overlay them with this topo and another I have, and am getting pretty close to having a decently detailed and scaled outline of the ground as it stood during the period.
I've even overlayed it with a 50m. hex grid so it should be fairly useful as a basis for making a game map.

Unfortunately I have no experience with making SP maps or scenarios.
Might you be interested in a bit of collaboration?

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

I'm mainly focusing on the Northern and Central firebases at the moment, but I have done a bit of work on the area down towards Isabelle (see sample)
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/f...dine-slice.jpg

If you like I could send you a copy of the area between Isabelle and Claudine.

-G

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Have just started following this thread and I hope it gets main streamed into the game, unless I missed something and it's already available in the game? But if I may take the liberty to recommend a couple of excellent books on the topic. Both written by Frenchman one who would die in South Vietnam and the next served as an officer in the French Army two years after the battle. When published in 1966 it's purported that this book gave Pres. Johnson pause about our involvement in Vietnam.

1. Hell in a Very Small Place: The Siege of DIEN BIEN PHU by BERNARD B. FALL Pub. 1966. He was killed by a booby trap in Feb. 1967 in South Vietnam.

2. Valley of Death: The Tragedy at DIEN BIEN PHU that led America into the Vietnam War by Pulitzer Prize winning author TED MORGAN Pub. 2010. Extensively uses recently declassified documents from all involved.

Basically I subscribe to know your enemy just asked how that worked out for Lt.Gen. Harold G. Moore(Ret.) at Ia Drang, who it's well known studied this battle in depth as well as the French involvement in Indochina. I believe he even read Dr. Falls "Streets of Joy" that covers Frances overall involvement.

Thanks for the time, I really like the idea of all this for what's it worth.

Regards,
Pat

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Thanks Fastboat,
I read "Hell in a very small place" when I was based in Germany back in the '80s, and it really put the hook in me. I'm going to have to get another copy of that and re-read it.
'Street without Joy' is also excellent.

Since my last post I managed to find another few aerial photos of the valley during the period in question, and think I have just about got the shape of the river and the locations of the main firebases nailed.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Thank you for the title correction and other. If you don't have these already maybe they will help.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums.../t-133999.html
Will probaly have register with them, normally they have good stuff.
http://www.maplandia.com/vietnam/lai...dien-bien-phu/
http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/
But the photos are captioned in French, somehow I don't think this is an issue!?!
http://www.travelpod.com/photos/0/Vi...ien%20Phu.html
http://pathannay.wordpress.com/2011/...dien-bien-phu/
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...ap&FORM=IDFRIR
It looks like the Miltary Photo has this coveded pretty well. Hope some this will be useful to you.

Regards,
Pat

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Last one promise. :rolleyes:
1. Military Photo site just click on the "Full version" and the photos will come up on page one.

2. http://www.maplandia.com/vietnam/lai...gle-earth.html
GOOGLE 3-D satellite, it really shows the advantage the Vietnamese had with the high ground. You can clearly make out the French base sites including the runway, Khe Sanh comes to mind here, though, I make no judgements for those that were actually there a lesson learned from my father who saw the fields of Italy, Korea and Nam on a personal note. You might need to add the GOOGLE 3D add on, however it's safe, as none of my safeguards detected anything.

3. Historically you just can't ignore the importance of this battle and the longer term implications it had on policy.

Regards,
Pat

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Thanks a ton for those links, Pat.
A few that I hadn't seen before, including an excellent overhead shot of the main French base south of the Airfield that clarifies a few questions I had.
That google 3D stuff is cool too. The red marker is actually on Eliane 2, held by a mixed group of Moroccan tirailleurs and Foreign legion Paras, it was the site of some of the fiercest fighting of the battle. They held the position even after the Viet Minh detonated a huge mine (the massive crater is still visible today), and fought until the last bullet and grenade.
Epic stuff!
The long term implications are undeniable, but it's really the grim, desperate and unrelenting nature of the siege that really gets to me.
Cheers,

Grant

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Grant,
I'm glad this info was useful and fresh. One of the refs has a picture of the "mine" site which is well maintained by the Vietnamese government. I agree with you the story here was the bravery of the defenders. However of the 12,000+ captured and marched to the "re-education" camps almost 7500 would never make there-such a waste.
Bravery knows no flag, I really learned that standing on a hill called Little Round Top and looking across a field facing Cemetery Ridge in a small town in Pennsylvania called Gettysburg. A difficult situation arose when I looked my wife in the eye and told her "I don't think I could've done what they did and crossed that field". I bow my head to all that have crossed those fields.
I hope this is correct...
le courageux et altruiste doit toujours trouver le chemin du ciel

Anyway happy I could help.

Regards,
Pat

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Yes it is, i can't add anything other than that i agree with that. :)
Oh, and i think the "even-more-correct" way would be: l'altruiste, but since this isn't a french class we can overlook that :)

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Hey Pat,
Your comment that 'bravery knows no flag' is especially true for DBP, as although we often think of it as a battle of French against Vietnamese, the 'French' force was incredibly multinational, with the majority having never seen France. A large percentage of the defending force were Vietnamese from the Red river Delta, or T'ai tribesman, with the rest a mix from Algeria, Morocco, and even Senegal.

When I was 15 I took a trip with my dad down to Gettysburg, and also walked across that field in the footsteps of Pettigrew, Picket, et. al.
I remember looking across at where the guns had been and wondering how the hell they could have continue to march while they were being shot to pieces. Were they mad? Were they made of different stuff than us weak modern men?
It wasn't until I did bit of military service myself that I started to realize what might have motivated them to continue into the face of bloody murder.
I think there can develop a kind of bonding among squad mates to the point where the fear of letting down your comrades can actually outweigh the fear of potential death and mutilation.

Walking the grounds that we read about can give you a special understanding of the trials and horrors those long gone heroes faced. Things impossible to appreciate from books of TV docus. But in walking them alone you can never really understand their motivations.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

This is my first post to the Forum, although I have been playing the game for a number of years (my sincere thanks go to the team for this marvellous game)!

Some time ago I began researching some of the history of Vietnam, and felt it would be good to create some battle scenarios that had not been covered by other people.

So here is my scenario to cover this siege which I hope others may enjoy, and maybe suggest improvements to. Of course there is no substitute for properly modelling the battle in a Campaign format, my excuse was time available.

This is a long game 90 moves,with one map containing many imperfections (and interpretations) as you might expect with such a large area to capture in one map. I have tried to include as many units as I can from references, within the limits available. This has led to some oversize units, which are challeging to finish off in the battle. Enjoy.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Hey Mallard,
Great to see an interest in this ver underrepresented battle!
I actually started looking into having a go at making one myself, but never got much further than the planning stage.

I did manage to come up with what I think is an accurate map of the battle field as it stood during the various stages of the battle (based on topographical maps, and aerial photos).
Comparing this to your map I can see there are a few fairly significant divergences from the actual terrain, e.g your map is a lot hillier than the actual site, especially west of the Nam Youn, which is very flat. Some of your firebases are a bit off also, especially the key Dominique's and Eliane's.
I was also a bit surprised to see some Sherman's and AMX APC's! I'm pretty sure the only armor they had were those few Chaffee's.

I can see that you wanted to include the whole scene, but it might have been better to not include Gabrielle and Isabelle, as they are actually quite far away from the main areas near the airfield. Removing those would have let you keep the area proportional, without the map getting crazy huge. In any case, these (along with Beatrice) were almost separate battles in their own right.

Of course as you said, ideally this battle really needs to be split into several parts to cover the various major actions.
If you ever feel up for having a stab at that, I would be happy to share my maps and research notes.
-G

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

I know quite a bit of DBP and my 5 Eurocent is that it is too large and complex a battle to be realistically covered in SPMBT. How do you portray "The Rats of Myon Than"? The extreme morale and dedication of Les Paras and La Legion? The 40 man assault on Elaine that threw out a battalion of Viets? The sheer scale of the battle? Would you allow the French to garrision DBP with only Legionnaires and Paras instead of mixing Viets and N. Africans in? ETC.
I am sorry, but I think it cannot be done at this scale.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

I've been playing your DBP scenario. I've made it to turn 10. I've spent all of that time trying to get troops into positions. Which is kinda boring. I have almost all of my troops on the ground, and still have large parts of my entrenched areas uncovered. The troops seem to land in about 3 areas only. So I end up moving them long distances, by foot obviously. I've already lost 4 or 5 VP hexes because my troops started too far away from them.

I'm not an expert on that battle. I do remember reading about it at least once. Seems to me like it would've made for a faster played scenario if it had started at least 10 turns later than it did. In other words, with the French troops already in place.

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

I would recommend book #1 from Post #15 if this project is still being worked on. I got mine from the ALBERIS site for around $15.00 in very good condition. I bring this up because I was checking to see if their was any info on the type of 105mm arty tubes that were being used then. The Appendix is very thorough to include complete Order of Battles for both armies. By example from the FOB:
"I Battery, North Viet-Nam AAA Group (FTA-NVN)
1 section of 2 quad-.50 mounts Dominque 4
1 section of 2 quad-.50 mounts Huguette 1"

I used the above example as I believe it was brought in the thread about these units. They are the only ones listed in the FOB. This might be worth your while as of course the story, along with drawings and pictures show the progression of the battle which might be useful on the scenario approach you take to refine what you have now. The Falklands scenario might be useful here(?).

Regards,
Pat

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

I came across what appears at first glance an exciting reference source covering DienBien Phu and the IndoChina War in general. Interestingly, it is a Wild Bill site using TOAW game. He has well documented OOBs for both sides in the conflict and a TOAW scenario map that I think could be translated into winSPMBT without much difficulty.

links: Dien Bien Phu – A Fatal Gamble by Wild Bill

The TOAW scenario link: DIEN BIEN PHU 1954 v1.1b by Karim Marc HASANIC

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Grant,
If you're still working on the Dien Bien Phu Campaign, I really think after about the 30yr. hiatus since you indicated you read Bernard Fall's book you should do so again, I just finished it. He covers all aspects of the battle from the initial airdrop and ensuing three days it took to neutralize the enemy, the siege and raid period to a daily breakdown of the final 54 days Gen. Giap decided and was ready to launch his offensive. He covers CONDOR and ALBATROSS, also the what ifs of VOLTURE being implemented, the 16 tank option and the need for BEATRICE.
I strongly feel this would allow you too "scale down" the battle somewhat as you know most of the "French troops" fought from fixed positions and allow the counter attacking French troops to enter the map at an appropriate time based on the archives. Also it has many battle maps included.
As the book points out we would revisit (U.S. Civilians flew resupply missions during the battle.) Dien Bien Phu and bomb it successful in 1965. They found the dead from both sides finally got a grave marker around where the I believe it said, the HUGENUTTE positions were...a new airstrip that criss crossed to original one. I believe the GOOGLE 3D map I posted here earlier shows it.
Unless you've read the book or really looked into the history, it would be hard to fully understand and appreciate not only what all the troops endured, but also the ramifications to East/West relations and also the long term policies adapted by the U.S., China and Russia in S.E. Asia that would culminate with the Vietnam War and for a few years after that war ended.
There are examples of courage and what men will sacrifice for the sake of others that'll make a grown man cry. So I end with...
La main de Dieu honore vraiment tous qui s'est sacificed pour le bien de leur collègue homme.

Not what I intended to work on this morning, but I feel this project is important for everything this battle represents to all that were involved. Grant "march on" and "don't give up the boat!", you won't see me say ship if I can help it!?!

Regards,
Pat

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Well I got myself pretty caught up in this well intentioned project the scale of which would've been enormous throughout the spectrum in man-hours, planning etc. etc. I reread all the posts to make sure this is new information and it is. So prior to my op, I was researching an unrelated issue when I came across the below items FYI. It was released in 2009 and I see updated to Win 8. And it got favorable reviews (PC Game, Arm Chair General etc.) and might full fill the needs of those with an interest in this battle and the operations associated with it prior to and during the siege. A Vietnamese company would release their own version of the game in Dec 2011 called "7554" sort of a "Call to Duty" styled platform.
On 7554...
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/12/vie...-call-of-duty/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18119526

Dien Bien Phu...
http://www.wargamer.com/article/2741...-dien-bien-phu
http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Product...Phu/DBPhu.html

About my "signature" I've not found one that seemed to fit my "temperament" over the years until I heard this one. Though I could never aspire to accomplish what he did, I've tried to apply and aspire to the thought behind his words in my life.

Regards,
Pat

Re: DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?
 

Thanks about very challenging and quite difficult scenario:)! It was difficult but after tough fighting I got marginal victory. After 70th turn I noticed that Vietminh had used all infantry units (no more attacks against my troops) and rest of turns I started to send "task forces" all over the map to destroy most(?) of artillery/mortar/rocket units;)...