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Czech OOB 5.5
Many suggestions concerning Czechoslovak/Czech OOB. Much info is based upon a Czech page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 (it has English equivalent http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 but most pages are in Czech only anyway) - seems very detailed and rather complete inventory of Czechoslovak equipment. There is also a reliable-looking service http://vojenstvi.cz with Q&A on the CS Army (in Czech).
#004, 007, 021 TO-54, TO-55, TO-34 - Czechoslovakia almost certainly didn't use flamethrower tanks (as most - if not all Warsaw Pact countries but the USSR). They aren't listed on valka.cz. Also an article on the Czech flame tank prototype MP-1 in HPM 6/93 magazine suggests, that no flame tanks were bought by the CS army. #010 T-55AM1 - according to http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_69.htm (no.1027), first 40 prototype units of Kladivo FC system were delivered in 1982. So maybe starting date should be 1983? (now it's 1984). According to this page, ammunition in modernized variants was lowered to 38 rounds (due to FC system blocks): 18 HE, 4 AP, 6 HEAT, 10 APDS. The name could be changed to T-55AM1 Kladivo - it was quite common, although it wasn't official tank name. #011 T-55AM2 - the name could be changed to T-55AM2 Kladivo. Ammunition should be 38 rounds (see above) #013 T34/76 M1943 - designation M1943 wasn't used in practice (rather in modern books) and is useless, since there is only one T-34/76 in OOB. There should be "T-34" rather than "T34" #22 IS-3 - according to an article in HPiM and http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/465 only 2 were bought, although they were used in line unit. More numerous were IS-2 - 8 tanks from 1946 until probably mid-50s (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_9.htm , no.132), so maybe it should be changed (or IS-2 should be added). #23 SU-76M - also known locally as LSD-76, if we'd like to add flavour instead of recognizability (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/.../292874#292874 ). According to table at http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_51.htm used only from some 1950 until at least 60 (now:46-55). Wouldn't need change in formations date if we add SD-75/40N (Stug-III) in this class (see below). #24 SU-85 - the quoted pages don't mention that any were used in CS. Could be replaced with SD 75/40N (StuG-IIIG), used from 1946 (in significant numbers from 9/47) until 1954, stored until 1960 - http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/79297 . No side skirts, presumably some Soviet AAMG. #25-27 SU-100 - local designation was SD-100 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/38481 ) #28 SU-100M - 14.5mm AAMG should be verified. It was very uncommon weapon in all Soviet bloc, as a tank AAMG. None of photos of Czech SU-100 on a page above shows any AAMG, especially huge one, with no mention in a text either. #29 ISU-152 - also known locally as TSD-152 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 ). According to http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_9.htm (No.132), they were stored until 1972, so they could be given to border guard in case of emergency. #30 BRDM-1 Shmel - (2P27 Shmel vehicle) - only 1 was delivered to Czechoslovakia, in 1962/63 for tests (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/23021 ). To be removed in my opinion. Anyway, proper picture is 29057 and it carried only 6 missiles. #31 BRDM-1 Falanga (2P32) - to be removed from all countries but USSR - according to this Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_2p32.htm there are no signs of their export. Not mentioned on quoted pages either. #32 BRDM-2 Fal.-M1 (9P137) - to be removed from all countries but USSR - according to this Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_9p137.htm it wasn't exported. There are also no signs of their service in CS. #33 BRDM-2 Malutka - the quoted inventory and http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_50.htm (no.745) strongly suggest, that Czechoslovakia used only 9P133 Malutka-P (unit #36) - this unit is 9P122 Malutka-M, with older missiles. It should be changed to early variant of #36 unit, with #155 missiles (introduced in 1975). Would need #82 formation change, being earliest and leading unit (instead of 433/434 units). #34 BRDM-2 Konkurs - proper pic is 29253. It carries 15 missiles (now it has 10) (source: http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/21963 and others). More proper name is 9P148 Konkurs. According to http://toulky.vojenstvi.cz/foto_index.php?fid=571 they were delivered in second half of 1980s (now it's 1979). #35 MT-LB/82 - the quoted inventory nor other sources doesn't mention such SP-mortar in CS service (in fact I've found only vague info, that such variants were developed in Bulgaria and currently in Russia, with no info if they were ever produced or exported). Definitely to be removed. Formations #15, 16 should be changed according to earliest unit #417. #36 BRDM-2 Malutka - better name is BRDM2 Malutka-P or 9P133 Malutka-P. Used from 1975 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/21966 ) (now it's 1990). It carried 6 missiles and 8 reloads. There could be created two units with different vision (I suggest instead of unit #33). It should be earliest unit in #82 formation. By 2011 they were withdrawn (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_50.htm -no.745), probably even several years before. #37 SU-76M - also known locally as LSD-76, used circa 1950-60 (see #23) (needs change in #53 formation date) #38 2S7M Malka - according to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/10549 and http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_81.htm (no.1202) it was just basic 2S7 Pion variant and used until 1993 (now it's 120). Used from 1984, but I don't know when exactly (now it's 1985). #39 2S1 Gvozdika - according to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12583 , first 4 introduced in 1976 (now it's 78). They should have no AAMG (what is evident on photos and concerns all countries). #41 BTR-40A - the quoted inventory and http://vojenstvi.cz/ doesn't mention any BTR-40. CZ-Wikipedia doesn't list Czechoslovakia among users of BTR-40 and I've found no other signs on their usage in CS either. Removal makes gap in #18 and #52 formations (unit #415 might be extended). #42, 43 T-54AM1/AM2 - could be named Kladivo (as #10) #45 9K31 Strela-1M - just for information: according to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/9086 , only 4 were used since 78 (it's OK then, although not numerous) #47 SA-75 Dvina - proper icon is 4548 #51 BTR-40 - see #41 - no signs of their usage in CS. Gap in armoured car formations could be filled creating other AC from 1946, like Humber LRC. #52 BRDM-1 - BRDM-1s were very rarely armed with 12.7 mm DShk, if at all (it concerns all countries). Standard armament was only one 7.62mm SGMT (precisely saying, AAMG variant was named SGMB). According to http://www.militaryvehicles.cz/index...=03-02&lang=en they were used quite shortly and were quickly replaced with OT-65 (12/69 would be good ending date IMO, now its 96). It was named just "BRDM", without "1". #53 BRDM-2 - pages http://www.militaryvehicles.cz/index2_en.php , http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...zkumne-vozidlo and http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/23028 mention only special chemical reconnaissance version BRDM-2rch used in CS (armed with one 7.62 PKT, used from 1975). There are no photos of ordinary BRDM-2 in CS service either. #54 OT-62 - could be named OT-62 TOPAS (although it was a commercial name). Armament was 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG in turret. Speed should be 19-20 (58-60 km/h, now 18). According to Bronekollektsya book on PT-76 tank and a mention on the page below, serial production started in 1963 only (now: 1/62). According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/13336 , last was withdrawn in 1994 (now it's 12/96). No formation change. #55 OT-64C SKOT - according to a Czech book on Skots, proper name of armed variant was OT-64 SKOT-2A or OT-64 2A. Removed until 2004, except for foreign missions, but they seem to use unarmed variants (now: until 110). #56 OT-62D - it is OT-62 in fact (OT-62D was a variant with more powerful vz.59 RCL mounted upon a deck - see http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/38473 ). I suggest name "OT-62 /T21" (T21 is a symbol of Tarasnice). First date 1963, last 1994, machine gun was 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG, crew was 3, speed should be 19-20 (see #54). Proposed unit: tank destroyer OT-62D with #153 82mm M59 RCL, vz.59 AAMG and #158 Tarasnice (see photos on a page quoted above). Used probably in 1964-94. Ammo - like unit #377 ?... #57 BTR-50PK - used until 1966 at least (now 12/62) (http://www.militaryvehicles.cz/index...=02-04&lang=en ) 1959 seems correct ("from the end of 1950s") #58 OT-65 FUG - no precise first date, but according to http://www.militaryvehicles.cz/index...=03-01&lang=en it was presented to public in 5/65 (now it's 1/66). Used until mid-90s (now: 120). It carried no fixed armament - basic variant is only sometimes seen with crew's LMG on bipod. Proposed unit: there MUST be added OT-65A Vydra - like #58 OT-65 FUG, but armed with 82 mm recoilless rifle #158 and 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG. Icon could be 2334. Crew 4. http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...zidlo/p/252669 I don't now a starting date, but there is a photo from 1969. Maybe some 1967? Proposed unit: DPP OT-65M - FO vehicle - like #58 OT-65 FUG, armed with 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG. Crew 5. http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/84054 #60 9K33M3 Osa-AKM - 9K33M Osa-AKM was introduced in 1984 (now: 1/86) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6071 and http://toulky.vojenstvi.cz/foto_index.php?fid=554 ) (I haven't found info on "9K33M3" in CS service) #62 BTR-50P - no signs of service of open-topped BTR-50P in CS (http://www.militaryvehicles.cz/index...=02-04&lang=en and http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_30.htm no.444). To be removed IMO. Formations 220,222 should be changed according to earliest and leading unit #57 - or there should be created earlier Bren Carrier. #64 BVP-1 - standard load for all countries were 4 missiles (only theoretically there could be the 5th carried always on launcher). According to http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_61.htm (no.907), the first regiments were armed with BVP-1 in 1974. It would need changes to some formations. By the way, only in 1974 the Soviets introduced HE ammo for BMP-1. #65 BVP-2 - according to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/10482 and http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_36.htm (no531) introduced in 1983 (now it's 1/80). #66 OT-90 - should have turret armor like BRDM-2 (2/1/1). There should be added modernized variant OT-90M2, replacing OT-90 from 1/95, with armor 4/3/2. According to photos and drawings, they have no SD. Next to come. |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
I've put this all on the list to look into . When I do get to it there will likely be questions
Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
I've accidentaly posted unfinnished post :) - I've just corrected the first post, according to final version. In a couple of days I should send next suggestions, which I'm working upon. Questions are of course welcome.
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Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Supplement to previous post:
#55 OT-64C SKOT - according to a Czech book on Skots, armed APC variant was effectively withdrawn by 1991-92 and their turrets were used for OT-90. Special unarmed variants remained longer. Proposed units: in early 1990s there were created modifications for peacekeeping forces in Yugoslavia: with OT-62 turret with 7.62mm MG (also known, rather unofficially, as OT-93 - apparently developed in 1993) and a variant with pivot DShK AAMG (probably from 1992 - beginning of missions, pic 9121). They are probably used until today. In late 1990s part of OT-93 were bought also by Uruguay, along with normal OT-64. Further units: #67, 68 Medium Truck - it's worth mentioning, that standard Army truck since 1954 until was all-terrain 6x6 Praga V3S (pic 23488) #46, 69, 70 9K35 Strela-10M, SA-13b Gopher, SA-13c Gopher - Czech MoD page http://www.acr.army.cz/technika-a-vy...na/default.htm and others shows Strela-10M as the only version used by the Czech Army, so all three should be named 9K35 Strela-10M. However, I don't know, if they all are justified. There is no information, that they underwent any upgrade. According to http://toulky.vojenstvi.cz/foto_index.php?fid=553 it was used from 1983 (now: 1/80). It remains on the MoD page as still in use, although I've read in some article, that they were withdrawn by 2011. Unit #46 has too poor data - vision=0, FC=0, EW=2 while Strela-10M in Russian oob has 30/3/3 (like unit #69) - it should be equal. #72 Malutka ATGM - local name is Maljutka. According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...ka-AT-3-Sagger and http://toulky.vojenstvi.cz/foto_index.php?fid=567 introduced in 66 (now it's 69). #73 Malutka-2 ATGM - weapon #155 9M14P Malutka-P was semi-automatically guided missile, used with SP-launchers only (could be theoretically fire from ground launchers, in manual mode, without increased accuracy). On the other hand, Malutka-2 was a Russian development from late 80s. I don't think, that the Czechs would obtain new Russian version of this otherwise obsolete system, and there is no confirmation on these Czech pages. #74 Strela-2 Team - I've found no data as for CS, but 1/67 is impossible, since it was accepted for the Soviet Army in January 1968 (in Soviet oob: 1/68). I'd say 1/69 or 1/70 at best. Date might need some formation changes. #83 M53 100mm ATG - it was Czech weapon - weapon's name could be changed from "BS-3" to M.53 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/676 ) (it's also used only by some bunkers). According to this page, it was in use until beginning of 1990s. #84 M1944 100mm ATG - inventory http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 doesn't mention BS-3 guns. The Czechs had indigenous 100 mm gun above. To be removed? |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
#75 Javelin ATGM - radio code could be modified, since only 3 launchers were bought for special forces (cs.wikipedia).
#78 57mm AT-Gun - last date 12/96 for these WW2 guns is quite doubtful - I guess used until 1991 at best. #82 M52 85mm ATG - original designation was vz.52 #83 M53 100mm ATG - original designation was vz.53 #84 M1944 100mm ATG - in addition to information in a previous post, I've read in an article on BS-3, that they were bought by Poland and Bulgaria, while there's no information on other Warsaw pact countries. According to forum.valka.cz, they used unspecified numbers of vz.40 N (75 mm Pak 40) and vz.43/41N (88 mm Pak 43/41) guns. #86, 87 ZPU-2 AAMG, ZPU-4 AAMG - quoted pages don't mention these 14.5mm AAMGs in the Czechoslovak Army. Proposed unit - they had own 4 x 12.7mm vz.53 (DShKM) used from 1953 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/65097 ) I suggest to replace one of those with it (icon 1976, weapon 239 from Egyptian oob, picture might be 11087) #88 Vz.53 AA-Gun - commissioned in 1953, mass production from 1956 (now it's 1/65!) http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/1111 . Maybe better name would be 30mm vz.53 AAG ? Better icon is 1984 (4-wheel) #89 57mm AA-Gun - first date 1/50 is doubtful, since a production in the USSR started that year (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/958 ). I guess mid-50s would be closer to truth. I've only found info on rearming one unit in 1960. It isn't mentioned among AA armament on Czech MoD page now. Maybe better name would be 57mm S60 AA-Gun or 57mm S-60 AAG? #91 122mm Field Gun - maybe rather Howitzer..? #93 vz.52 MMG [2] - vz.52 was only Bren-like LMG http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/38990 #94 vz/59 MMG [2] - name should be vz.59 #95 S-300PMU - it was operational from 1990 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/39953 ). Better photo is 23718 or 65367 (SP version) #96 130mm M46 FG - it was used definitely earlier (now: 1/91-1/96). I've only found information, that one brigade was rearmed with 130 mm guns in 1976. #97 30mm AGS-17 GL - according to http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_22.htm , introduced in 1978 (now: 1/80) (it might need formation changes) |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Supplements:
57 BTR-50PK - according to Russian and Czech sources, it can carry 20 men (now 112). Speed was no more, than 45 km/h (now: 16) (it concerns all countries). According to http://www.palba.cz/printview.php?t=3606&start=0 they were used in CS from 1960. 76 Heavy truck - we might create earlier heavy truck, with long nose, until mid-70s, Tatra T111 for example (I can create picture) 78,90 57mm AT-Gun, 76mm Field Gun - extinct before 1968 (table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 ) 81 57mm AT-Gun - a secondary weapon should be probably some bolt rifle, eg. #20 M38/44 Carbine (or SMG, like PPSh, PPS, or after 1952: vz.24 SMG or vz.52 rifle) - the Czechs didn't use SKS. The same for #80 37mm AA-Gun and #89 57mm AA-Gun (which could actually use vz.58) 93 vz.52 MMG [2] (non existing unit) - maybe it's worth to replace it with standard MMG after the war vz.37 http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/17115 (Besa), pic 52062 (used, I assume, until mid-50s). Paras: 98 Para section - according to one comment on http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/11593 , early paratroops used StG-44 (#12, pic 23062). It wasn't a standardized weapon in the Czech army, but I guess they were supplemented in paratroops with PPS-43 or MP-40 SMG rather than rifles, because later the paratroops were given Sa 26 SMG. There are no signs of RPG-2 usage in CS on quoted pages, nor other sources. According to http://www.palba.cz/printview.php?t=3606&start=0 there existed Panzerfaust and Panzerschrecks in CS, although most were stored due to doubtful reliability (however, we consider a war situation). Most probably before 1958 a para section had 9 men (like infantry section - it will be covered later). According to http://www.palba.cz/printview.php?t=3156&start=0 , first training and experimental para battalion existed already in 1947, so first date should be changed. 99 Para section - from early 50s, paratroops used Sa 25 then Sa 26 SMG (http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/16961/start/0 and note on Stg-44 page above) (#6, pic 37103). Section should have 9 men (as above) 100 Para section - most probably after 1958 a para section had 8 men (like infantry section - it will be covered later, see also below) 101 Para section - in 1969 a para section had 8 men (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_97.htm ). Armament is OK. It is possible, that RPG-7 was introduced some two years earlier (there's a mention on manual from 1967 http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/28502 ) 102 Para section - I wonder, if they really had replaced RPG-7 with RPG-75, offering much worse range. It's my supposition, but RPG-75 was rather an one-shot additional infantry weapon, like M72 LAW. Moreover, paratroop section should have best AT capabilities possible, with no reason to withdraw RPG-7. In addition, RPG-7 launcher with 8 shots probably weighs less, than 8 RPG-75 launchers (and sure takes less space). 103 SMG section - no signs of RPG-2 usage - see #98. There's no information, if they had any RPG at all. Class should be rather 66 (like #302), since now they are infantry, like rifle-armed #306, 308 104 Para Sniper - better picture of Czech vz.54 rifle is 37112 105 Para Sniper - from mid-70s they used SVD (http://www.palba.cz/portal.php?news=...ea9082438f185f ) - I don't know if it has a connection with increased vision (picture 11112) 108 Engineers - the Czech didn't use SKS. Could be #20 M38/44 Carbine 111 Engineers - I believe, main weapon of engineers from 1980 should be standard vz.58 rifle, not vz.24 SMG from early 1950s? It's rather not used currently, anyway. #112, 113 Sniper - see 104, 105 |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
All this and all the other reports are now on the list and I will start looking into them soon
Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Helicopters
114 Mi-4 - standard armament of military Mi-4 was 12.7mm TKB-481 (aka A-12,7) MG (I suggest to arm it with #226 MG, renamed to "12.7mm TKB MG" - according to further suggestions, Mi-4 will be the only unit to use weapon #226). Used from 6/56 (now: 1/56, it would need formations' change as the earliest unit) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mi-4.htm). 115 Mi-4C - according to a Polish article and Czech page http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mi-4.htm , it was Czech modification named actually Mi-4B. It was armed with 64 (4x16) S-5K rockets, so it needs double number of rockets or upgrade to 4x57mm S-5K (eg. weapon #185 from Russian oob). (Seems from this page however, that the mounting wasn't much successful, and it isn't sure if armament was actually used). It also should be armed with a standard 12.7 MG (as above). According to a photo on that page, also 16 x 130 mm rockets were tested or used later (not Soviet S-13, but own design), but there is no closer info. BTW: IMO more proportional value for 4x57mm S-5K would be kill=11 (now 2x57mm has kill 8, 4x57mm - 10 and 8x57mm - 15). 116 BRDM-2b - ordinary BRDM-2 wasn't actually used in CS - see unit #53 117 Mi-171Sh - better name is Mi-171S (Czech letter S with "v"). Used from 7/05 (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil2/mi-171s.htm ). Gun armament should be reduced IMO to one MG, because there are two in side doors and one in a rear ramp, so one target can be usually engaged with only one MG. MGs are vz.59, by the way (http://www.army.cz/avis/areport2005/ar17str.pdf ) There can be also variant with 6x32 57mm S-5K rockets or 6x20 80mm rockets (maybe replacing #119 unit) 118 Mi-8 - precisely, Mi-8T. It carried 64 (4x16) S-5K rockets, so their number should be doubled or they could be upgraded to 4x57mm S-5K. According to http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mi-8.htm first ones were delivered in late 1967 (now 1/67) and used well after 1986, but later photos on this page don't show hardpoints. Probably they were disarmed in 1991, like Mi-17 (see #120), so probable ending date of armed variant should be 12/91. 119 Mi-8TB - there's no sign that such gunship variant was ever used in Czechoslovakia and it's very doubtful. A detailed page on the Czech Mi-8 quoted above don't mention it. To be removed (or changed to rocket-armed Mi-171S - see #117) 120 Mi-17 - most probably they didn't carry nose MG. It could carry at least 6x16 rockets (maximum 6x32), so it could be fitted with third weapon #190 with 12+4 shots and they even all could be upgraded to 4x57mm S-5K. According to http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-17.htm they were disarmed starting from 1991, due to interpretation of CFE Treaty (including removal of electric wiring). Photos on this page don't confirm presence of a machine gun nor its mounting in a nose. 121 Mi-8 / Falanga - no sign it was ever used in CS - see unit #119. It could be changed to normal unarmed Mi-8T, used from late 67 until some 2015(?) 122 W-3A Sokol - used since 10/96 (now: 1/96). 123 Mi-17 - used since 10/84 probably until 120 (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-17.htm ) 124 Mi-24 / Falanga - proper name is Mi-24D. Delivered in 24.8.78 (now: 1/78) and used until 2003 (now: 12/91)(http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-24.htm ). Standard armament of Mi-24 was 128 (4x32) S-5K rockets (in addition to missiles), so they should be upgraded to double number of 4x57mm S-5K or to 8x57mm S-5K (weapon #186 from Russian oob). Gun's name spelling in Czech is JaKB. Cooler icon (and fit to actual camo) is 3484. 125 Mi-24 / Kokon - proper name is Mi-24V. Delivered only in late 12/85 (now: 1/85) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/mi-24.htm ). Rocket armament and icon - as above. 126 Mi-24 / Kokon - name, rockets, icon - as above. ... 550 Mi-1 - max speed was 185km/h (61, now: 76) - it concerns all countries. There was also a variant Mi-1AKR for artillery spotting from 1962. 551 Fa-223 - currently has no radio value. It was only one or two units. Proposed unit: light helicopter VR-2 (HC-2) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/hc-2.htm ). Data, icon and picture (as for now) may be similar to OH-23 Raven, but crew=1, carry=1, speed=42 (126 km/h), used from 1956 (there were army trials of the prototype from 1956, small series went to army in 1960) until some 1963. (Needs date change in formation #39) ... 902 Mi-17 - most probably they didn't carry MG. See #120. 903 Mi-24 Hind E - correct name is Mi-24V. I can't see a reason to create rocket-only armed variations of unit #125, since Mi-24 could carry 4 missiles and 128 rockets 57 mm at a time as a standard. Anyway, used from 1/86 (see #125), correct icon=3484 or 3485 (now it's Mi-24A). 904 Mi-24 Hind D - correct name is Mi-24D. As above, I can't see a reason to create rocket-only armed variations of unit #124, since Mi-24 could carry 4 missiles and 128 rockets 57 mm at a time as a standard. Used from 8/78 (see #124). 905 Mi-24 Hind E - icon, name, date as #903. Apart from 80 mm rockets, it can carry also 4 x 9M114 Sturm missiles (see #125). 906 Mi-24 Hind D - name, date as #904. I have no specific information, but it seems, that 80 mm rockets were used only from the 1980s. Apart from 80 mm rockets, it can carry also 4 Falanga AT missiles (see #124). 907 Mi-24 Hind E - icon, name as #903. It can carry up to 16 x 122 mm rockets (4x4) and also 4 x 9M114 Sturm missiles (see #125). The rocket's designation is LR-122 (modified BM-21 Grad rocket - http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/22273 ). These rockets were first tested in 6/89 (now: 1/85) (http://www.vrtulnik.cz/mil/grady.htm ). A photo with 8x122 mm and 64x57mm: http://www.acr.army.cz/images/id_5001_6000/5063/02.jpg 908 Mi-24 Hind D - name Mi-24D. As for rockets and first date - see above. 909 Mi-24 Hind E - I haven't found any information if there ever existed guided 57 mm rockets (which seem to small for guidance and are generally considered too small to be effective) - and if they are used by the Czech Republic. 910, 911 Mi-24 Hind E - name, icon as #903. I haven't found any information if there are used guided rockets in the Czech Republic. It should be verified. |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Aircraft
Most info concerning aircraft 1946-50 is taken from a Czech article in (Polish) Lotnictwo Wojskowe magazine. General note: in many cases (not only aircraft), price of units should change, if armament changes are applied, but I generally don't deal with prices. 127 Yak-9B - Czechoslovakia didn't use Yak fighters at all (with exception of Yak-23). It can be replaced with Spitfire LF.IXE - eg. French #162, used in 1/46 - 12/48, armed with 2x20 mm, 2x12.7mm and two bombs 100 kg (I don't think, that they bought 113 kg (250pdr) bombs. Maybe they could be used with one German or Soviet 250 kg? - my guess). Icon 514 is OK, without signs. 128 La-5N - proper name La-5FN, used until 1948. But it's better to rename it La-7, with the same stats - used in bigger number and until 1950 (now: 12/54). Picture and icon are OK. According to Russian sources, both could only take 2 x 100 kg bombs, not 4 x 125 (I have no information on bombs, but 125 kg was not typical in German/Soviet inventory which Czechoslovakia might have used and this weapon should be rather changed to standard 100 kg). 129 Avia S-99 - not numerous unit (radio=1), used from some mid-46 until some 1953 (now: 1/46-12/54). "Avia" could be omitted, since they were Bf 109, only assembled and restored in Avia. 130 S-92 (Me-262) - withdrawn from service already in 1951 (now: 12/59 - hard to imagine how to keep operating ex-German WWII jets so long). It could be available earlier (now 1/49) - there were several available in 1948, although they were used for experiments and training and only in 10/50 there was created the first jet fighter unit. Size should be rather 4. 131 S-102 (Mig-15) - first delivered in 6/51 (now: 1/51). 132 MiG-17F - MiG-17 didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets, and moreover, CS used only two MiG-17F (http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10547.html ). I suggest to change it to an interesting Czech attack variant MiG-15SB (see http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10543.html ). Data and guns like MiG-15 (above), but speed = rather 10 due to increased weight. Used from 1959 until 1983, armed in following variants: - 40 rockets 55 mm LR-55 (Czech design, probably equivalent to Soviet 57 mm S-5 with HE warhead) - 4 rockets 130 mm LR-130 (Czech design, HEAT warhead, probably similar to Western 5in rockets) - 4 bombs 100 kg (6 without fuel tanks) - 2 cluster bombs RBK-250 (#199, I don't know, if anti-personel or anti-tank and don't know since when) In addition to rockets it could take 2 x 100 kg bombs, if without fuel tanks. (BTW: I don't know why MiG-15 and MiG-17 have in the game different ammo loads: 4 vs 6 x 37 mm and 8 vs 9 x 23 mm, while they both had 40 rounds 37 mm and 80 rounds 23 mm) 133 MiG-17F - see above - I suggest to change it to MiG-15SB armed with same guns and 4-6 bombs 100 kg (see above). 134 MiG-17PF - MiG-17PF didn't carry obsolete RS-82 rockets. I suggest to remove this unit (or change to MiG-15 SB). 135 MiG-17PF - it should have the same ammo load for 23 mm guns, as MiG-15 and 17F, which have 8 or 9 shots (it has 6). Speed could be 12 - max 1123km/h. 136 Il-10 Sturmovik - name could be changed to B-33 or Avia B-33 (technically, Avia was a proper name for licensed production B-33 since 1952, but Avias constituted a great majority). According to a Russian book on Il-10 [Aviakollektsya 5/2004], used from 8/50 until 1960 (now there is 1/50-12/58). It could take only 4 rockets (now it has 2x4) [same source]. 137 Il-28 - delivered only in 1955 (now: 1/53), withdrawn from bomber units in 1965 (now: 12/71) - until 1973 they served for reconnaissance. In 1960 fixed guns were dismounted in Czechoslovakia, though [source Aviakollektsya 6/2006]. So there could be another unit in 1960-65, without guns (as a level bomber?). I'm not sure, if it should be fighter-bomber class at all - in Soviet oob they are only level bombers or COIN, and were rather not fit to strafing. As a level bomber, it would need new formation. 138 MiG-21PF - PF used from 8/64 (now there's 1/66) (http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html ). 139, 140 S-105 - Czechoslovakia used S-105 (licence MiG-19) from 1958 (now there's 1967!) [Source: MiG-19 In action]. Armament of unit #140 seems OK, though typical for MiG-19 was 8-rocket 57 mm launchers on only two pods (and two tanks or bombs). 141 MiG-21PFM - RS-2US was AA only missile, so it must be an error. It could use unguided S-24 240 mm missiles instead (weapon #176 240mm S-24 Rkt). (Note: RS-2US was only experimentally used against ground targets by the Russians, in a process of development of Ch-66 missile, but it had only 13-kg warhead and couldn't do much harm, with low precision. Anyway, it should be removed - unless somebody finds a source, that the Czechs meant to use it against ground. A special air-to-ground missile Ch-66 (Kh-66, AS-7) was developed for MiG-21PF, but I have no confirmation, that the Czechs had them (basically an earlier version of Ch-23 Kerry). Maybe it's meant to be this missile? Data for Ch-66: HE/HEAT warhead 103 kg including 51 kg of explosive (Ch-25 has warhead 108 kg, RS-2 has 13 kg), max range 8 km, accuracy 40 seems ok. It was commissioned in the USSR in 1968, so earliest possible date of export seems some 1969). 142, 143 MiG-21M, MF - armament of these aircraft should be in fact swapped (or names and everything else should be swapped, leaving armament). According to Czech page http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html, version M (also known locally as MA) could carry up to 4x 250 kg bombs, "Theoretically 2x 500 kg could be carried after strengthening of wings". Version MF could carry 500 kg bombs without problems. There could be also variant of M with 64 (4x16) 57mm S-5 rockets. There is also mention on parachute bombs on the page. Apart from latest times, they were just silver (icon 2757) 144 L-29 - better name is L-29 Delfin. Correct picture is 23032 (currently it is Hawk). 2 x 16 rockets is probably twice too much - it had two hardpoints up to 100 kg (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6443 ), while loaded launcher for 16 rockets weighted around 138 kg. Contrary to some Western designs, it wasn't meant an attack aircraft, just a trainer. More appropriate is silver icon 1106. 145 Yak-23 - Czech spelling is Jak-23 (it also carried designation S-101). According to this Russian page http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/yak23.html they were delivered only in the end of 1950 and used until 1956 (now: 1/49-12/51). According to article on the Czech post-war aviation, only in October 1950 there was created the first jet fighter unit, so it's the earliest date anyway. |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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So I assume then you had no idea every OOB is run through a cost calculator program before release and that automatically adjusts the cost of a unit based on a universal formula ? It's in the OOB folder. Also, do all these date availability adjustments take into account there cannot be date gaps in the units used in a formation so if I made these changes I'm not going to find out I suddenly have a 2 year gap someplace ? Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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Yeah that's great. See Andy's recent reply on this subject on another post on this forum. So when I need to look for all Yak-23's in a game that contains 35,666 units I need to remember that the Czechs are special and call it Jak ? This is exactly how we get reports like..." Why is it all the Yak-ZZs are XX but the Czech Jak ( or S-101 )that is the same aircraft is YY " We appreciate the info on the units. Please also appreciate we will be making changes to the game based on our own needs to deal with the ever increasing size of the database. Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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As for formations, in most cases I've indicated problems. I usually check formations in cases of earliest/last unit. Frankly, I haven't checked formation for "fighter-bombers", assuming, that all period is covered anyway. But as for "level bombers", I've indicated need for new formation for Il-28. I'll also deal in detail with infantry formations later (with APCs and stuff). As for Yak/Jak-23 - of course, you hold the key. I'm only suggesting changes which might or might not be applied, it's up to your decision. I'm only trying to provide as much info on real thing, as possible. By the way, "Jak" is also Polish, German, Hungarian, Finnish, Croatian, Dutch (OK, they had no Yaks) spelling. Regards, Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Maybe I'll finish the aircraft, since I have them almost ready...
149 Su-7B - name should be Su-7BM (Czechoslovakia used only BM and later BKL, B was a Soviet variant). They were acquired only in early 1964 (practical date some 6/64, now there's 1/61). It could carry 4 bombs 500 kg (without fuel tanks - now it has 2). Used until late 1980s (now 12/81). [detailed info in an article on Su-7s in Polish Nowa Technika Wojskowa from 1997] 150 Su-7B - should be renamed Su-7BM or BKL. Used until late 1980s. In addition to 2 x RBK-500 it could additionally carry 2-4 x 250 kg bombs or 4x16 rockets 57mm S-5 (two weapons #185 with 8 shots) (- depicts six-hardpoint variant). 153 and others Su-22M-4 - usually written in sources Su-22M4. 154 Su-22 - should be Su-22M4 - Czechoslovakia used only this single-seater version, from 1984 (now: 1/81). In addition to 2 Kh-25 Karen it can take at least 64 or even 128 rockets 57mm S-5 (2-4 x32) - now it has only 32. Small launchers for 16 rockets practically weren't even seen with Su-22. Or it can take 4x Kh-25 (and 64 rockets) - such combinations appear on photos. I suppose, that this armament should be used until 10/02, like the others (now: 12/93) 155 Su-22M-4 - in addition to 2 Kh-29 Kedge it can take at least 2x500 kg bombs or 64 rockets 57mm S-5 or 40 rockets 80mm S-8. 157 Pe-2 - full name of this version Pe-2FT. Delivered in 5/46 (now there's 1/46), withdrawn already in 1951 (now: 54). Both dates demand change in formation #152. I don't know however, if its class "level bomber" is right, since they were in fact dive bombers (if it's changed, than the formation might serve for Il-28s, which were rather "level beombers"). 158 Avia B-33 - there's no use for this unit, since #136 Il-10 (which was also designated B-33) is identical. Anyway, it could take only 4 rockets (now it has 2x2x2). Used until 1960. There should be also variant of B-33 with 4 new more potent LR-130 rockets (see notes for unit #132) and 2 bombs 100 kg or with rockets and cluster HE or AT bomblets (carried in bomb bays). 161 Il-2M3 - used only until 1950 due to fatigue (now: 12/52). If it was armed with rockets, additional 2x 100 kg bombs were more probable (2x250 kg would be overload, especially considering fatigue of wartime aircraft). There could be created another unit with 2x250kg bombs only. 163 130mm M-51 MRL - used at least from 1956, possibly even earlier (http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/1...30mm-raketomet ) (now: 1/61). 164 BM-13 Katyusha - no mention on the Czech pages, that they were ever used. 166 MiG-29 - MiG-29s at that time couldn't carry air-to-ground missiles (only later MiG-29M export proposals). Especially, that Kh-29 needs laser station - in CS inventory they were used with Su-22 only. MiG-29 could carry 4 x 500 kg bombs. I don't know if they were operational until the end, but the Czech MiG-29s were given to Poland only in 1996, so ending date could be 12/95 (now: 12/94) 170 S-106 - better name is just MiG-21F-13 - in late 1950s the Czechs abandoned local names of fighters, and as page http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html indicates, S-106 designation isn't used in practice. According to http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10856.html they were used operationally from 11/63 (now: 1/62). In 1962 only few were delivered for training. There was also version with 2 rockets 240 mm S-24 (I suggested to convert #141 unit this way). We might consider changing names from S-102 to MiG-15 S-102, S-103 to MiG-15bis S-103, S-105 to MiG-19 S-105. ... 182 MiG-19PM - RS-2U was AA-only missile - see notes for units #141 (if we change it to Ch-66 missile, it was used only on Mig-21PF). To be removed IMO. 183 MiG-21MFN - according to http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10769.html , standard MiG-21M (MA) delivered in 1969, could carry 4 rockets 240 mm. It's not clear, why unit with such old rockets should be available from 1/99. Proposed aircraft: according to http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10868.html MiG-23BN could take up to 6 x 500 kg or 8 x 250 kg bombs. If you are interested in further suggestions concerning the Czech OOB, let me know. Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Hallo
My notes to list created here (from the start): - flame tanks - Czechoslovakia really did not have any. - SU-85 was here - several vehicles were used by CS army corps in the USSR and some of them survived war and were stored up to 50s - BRDM-2 Malutka - only 9P133 variant used - SP-Mortars - there were only 2S4 Tulpan and ShM-85 - OT-64C SKOT - military designation is OT-64A for turreted variant (and just OT-64 for unarmed), SKOT-XY are factory designations - OSA-AKM is 9K33M3, there was also one battery of 9K33M2 OSA-AK used for training, I am not sure about year of introduction (about 1982 +/-) - BVP-1 (and also RPG-7) HE ammo - to my knowledge Czechoslovakia used only HEAT ammo for these weapons - OT-90 - there was then OT-90M1 with upgraded gear (but no difference in game terms) and OT-90M2 with added armor to turret - basic turret armor is same as in OT-64A - anyway during my service I never saw any OT-90M2, though they were accepted to service - in my opinion only very few vehicles were upgraded - Strela-10M - only IFF modernized, still in service (OSA-AKM unit was disbanded in 2006) - we haven't Malutka-2 - there were only 9M14M and 9M14P1 - Strela-2M was introduced in 1973, we haven't basic Strela-2 - 100mm ATG vz.53 - main ATG weapon but not used in bunkers - heavy fortification in southern Moravia (yes that one about many people thinks that did not exists) and around Bratislava used 85mm vz.44/59 fortress ATG (ZiS-S-53 derivative) - we did not used foreign field 100mm ATGs - 57mm ATG - service ended in around 60s - 30mm AAG (PLDvK) vz. 53 = towed version --- vz.53/59 = self-propelled - 122mm - there were M30 howitzers and A19 guns - 130mm M46 - used since 60s to early 90s - RPG-2 - we don't used it - RPG-75 did not replaced RPG-7 - it is supplement, RPG-7 was still main squad anti-tank weapon - MiG-21PFM - RS-2US - actually during 60s pilots here trained to use this missile against ground targets (as AA was useless) - BM-13 Katyusha - we don't have it, not even in ww2 (BM-13s which supported CS troops were always Soviet ones) - MiG-29 - officially removed from service in 1994, stored till deal with Poland - "... rockets 240 mm. It's not clear, why unit with such old rockets should be available from 1/99." --- it should represent S-24 rockets, MiG-21MFN modernization was about IFF and navigation stuff - only new armament was wiring for R-60 (AA-8) missiles - MiG-23BN - it should be here and also with Kh-23 missiles (only these -23BN used this missile in CS air force) |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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MiG-23BN and MiG-27 (unit #184 and other countries) had max speed 1800 km/h (1.7Ma), so it should be lowered from 25. Book on MiG-23/27 confirms maximum load 6 x 500 kg bombs. If rangefinder helps with aircraft, these special ground attack variants had laser RF. Regards, Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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?? Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Hope this will help...
OT-90M1 video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9uSO...eature=related OT-90M2 video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkv5p...eature=related OT-90 "Tank Day" video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRKSE...eature=related Other sites... Third picture down right, Scroll & See... http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1022.html http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum...pic.php?t=1000 http://rangerneil.com/Military_Vehicles/OT90_index.html Sounds like a couple of people can verify the authenticity. Though on the "other sites" the Czech markings are clear. I believe the turret to look similiar to the one mounted on the SKOT-64(?). Regards, Pat |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Nice films.
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As for IS-2 - right, I haven't looked far enough in the oob at that stage to discover it. Regard Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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.......and 15 seconds with the database check utility looking at the vehicles listed in that unit class would have given you the answer instead of ASSUMING it doesn't exist and we need to add it. Even a quick search for "IS" with "find" would have found it in three tries ! If you want to report errors that's fine, but do me the courtesy of at least checking the entire OOB THEN your own work before posting it. Thank You. Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
It was an accident, for I haven't seen IS-2 in a group of Soviet-origin tanks in a beginning of list.
I promise I'll check database before proposing new units next time :) Maybe I'll finish what I have - although I think, I won't be fiddling with infantry platoons?... (there is quite complete history of infantry/MR platoon structures in Czech Internet, but it would demand creation of several new formations - which I can, of course, propose) 74 Strela-2 Team - http://forum.presscont.eu/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=208 confirms information, that they appeared in CS from 1973 (now: 1/67). Might need change in formations' dates, for it is the only Infantry SAM (although now it appears is some units, that start at earlier date). Strelas however weren't used in rifle nor MR platoons, which structures are described in Internet in detail. In bigger numbers, they became armament of AA platoons in motor rifle battalions, created only in beginning of 1980s (such platoon consisted of 3 APC, each with 2 Strela teams - http://forum.csla.cz/forums/thread/10.aspx ) 82 M52 85mm ATG - proper pic is 25009 (this gun in Austrian service) 265 OT-64A SKOT - according to a book on OT-64, serial production in significant numbers started only in 8/64 and it was officially accepted only in May 1965. Therefore, earliest starting date should be around 1/65 (now: 1/64) (would need date change in formations). It had no fixed armament, only LMGs of troops' firing through open upper hatches. 272 LT-38G - in the Czechoslovak service it was just LT-38, without German variant letters. They were in inventory at least until 1949 (http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_51.htm ) (now: until 5/47). According to this page http://www.fronta.cz/lt-vz-38 they were designated post-war as LT-38/37 (for gun caliber), also a book on Czech AFVs confirms LT vz.38/37. 273 M5A1 Stuart - it's doubtful, that coaxial MG would be changed to Soviet one - IMHO it should be #67 Browning. (It would be ideal to create also .30 BMG and AAMG, but I understand this is a waste of slots?...) 274 Cromwell - According to http://vojenstvi.cz/verteneverte-2007.htm , they were stored until 1959 (now it's 55). BTW: correct designation of weapons #29-30 7.9mm vz.35 CMG/BMG should be vz.37, at least in tanks like LT-38. Maybe it would be better to rename it as generic "7.9mm CMG/BMG", so that they cover vz.37, Besa and German ones?.. 275 Challenger - picture shows Charioteer (I proposed picture of Challenger in other thread). Used - as above (although they were less numerous and might not survive as long, as Cromwell). 276, 286 Cromwell Mk.VI - according to a Polish book on Cromwells, HEAT round for 95mm howitzer was only experimental - it should be checked. If it's named Cromwell Mk.VI, maybe units 274 and 284 should be called Mk.IV? 300 Rifle Section - pic 11000 is empty(?) - proper is 23062. Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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NO, pic 11000 is the correct number, it just never made it to the last patch file but has now. Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Further commenst - more or less useful...
350 Maxim HMG [2] - better picture IMHO is 29409 (current one shows unknown soldiers, rather not Czechoslovak ones, and obscured MG). 368 M52 85mm ATG - proper pic is 25009 (in Austrian service). Original Czech designation was vz.52. 373 SPG-82 RCL - there is no sign in Czech Internet, especially here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 that they were ever used in Czechoslovakia. Knowing the Czech practice, it would be strange to buy it, while developing their own T21 Tarasnice. In any case, it was accepted for the Soviet Army only in 1950 (http://weapon.at.ua/load/220-1-0-847 and others), so it couldn't be used earlier here. It would need change or removal of formation #83 (it's the only unit in this class). I'll attach later a proper picture for SPG-82. 376, 377 M59 RCL HE, M59 Recoilless - much better picture is of the Soviet B-11 11068 or 29397 (it was always supported on two big wheels). Or I'll attach a proper picture. (BTW: picture 11068 doesn't look much like 107 mm B-11, much better is 29397, currently unused - for all countries, including Russia) 378 RPG-2 Team - there is no sign in Czech Internet, especially here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 that they were ever used in Czechoslovakia. They developed own P-27 instead. 380 57mm AA-Gun - like comments on unit #89 (first date 1/50 is doubtful, since a production in the USSR started that year. I've only found info on rearming one unit in 1960. It isn't mentioned among AA armament on Czech MoD page now. Maybe better name would be 57mm S60 AA-Gun or 57mm S-60 AAG?) 389 etc Para scouts: Like comments on para sections. According to one comment on http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/11593 , early paratroops used StG-44 (#12, pic 23062). I believe, that if not StG-44, then scouts were rather given PPS-43 or MP-40 SMG rather than rifles. From early 50s, paratroops were for sure given Sa 26 SMG (lbm 37103). There are no signs of RPG-2 usage (maybe Panzerfaust instead?). There are also no signs of AK-47 usage in Czechoslovakia. 401 BA-64 - according to a Russian book on GAZ-67-based vehicles, only 10 BA-64 were used in the Czechoslovak corps during the war (and no mention on further sales). No mention on this car also here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 It might be replaced with Humber LRC III with similar icon and specs. Armed as built in Bren and Boys AT-rifle, equipped with a reloadable smoke mortar, available from 1/46 to some 1950s, speed 97 km/h. I'll attach a picture (same unit I've proposed for Egypt). 402 OT-810 - produced only since 1959. Carry was only 111, speed=20 (60 km/h - stronger engine, than SdKfz-251), armament - 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG (definitely not 12.7 mm one) (http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/3...tle/CZK-OT-810 ). Top was fully armoured (icon is correct here) - unless, of course, gunner's hatch is open. Also known as OT-810 HaKo or HAKO (Hanomag Koprivnice). Proposed unit: HKL6p or OPp3N HKL6p or HKL6p HAKL (last is unofficial name) - original German SdKfz-251 APC, used from 1/46 until about 1960 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/11469 ). Eg. unit 168 from Spanish oob (but carry = 110-111) There was also used Sdkfz-250 as D-7p, but in unknown quantities (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18782 ). 403 ST-1 Hetzer - according to a book "in Czechoslovak army's service the Rundumfeur machine gun was deleted". Original designation's way of writing was ST-I (I doubt, if the name Hetzer was used - or is it only for easier identification?). Regards, Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Correction: I don't know how numerous was in fact Humber LRC III - at least one existed after the war, but it might have been not numerous car.
I have no information on White Scout Car (unit 400) in Czechoslovak Army, and it isn't mentioned on the quoted page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 On the other hand, quite popular in the Czechoslovak army until mid-50s was Humber Scout Car. They also used some number of M5A1 halftracks and Bren carriers. Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
404 BPzV Svatava - it was produced from 1988 (now: 1/98). According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18501 , withdrawn in 2009 (now: 12/120). Missiles should be #145 Malutka, like in normal BMP-1/BVP-1 (semi-automatic Malutka-P wasn't fired from BMP launcher - it could be theoretically used, but in manual mode, without increased accuracy). It had 6-tube SD (now: SD:3)
It was an armoured reconnaissance vehicle - formations 96, 97 Support APC should be IMO renamed according to real role of the vehicle (and dates should be changed according to BPzV). It's worth IMO to add also Scouts, carried by these vehicles. 405, 406 MT-LB/120 - the Czechoslovak Army didn't use any SP-mortars before PRAM #418. 407 BRM-1 - precisely, BRM-1K. It was a recce vehicle, and carried only 3 crew + 3 (or 2+4). It should have GSR, laser RF and 6-tube SD. According to Russian sources, speed was like normal BMP-1 (65 km/h, now 24) and it carried only 20 rounds of ammunition. Better icon would be BMP-2 due to bigger two-men turret. 410 BTR-40 - I've found no signs suggesting, that BTR-40 served in Czechoslovakia, and it isn't mentioned here http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 411 BRDM-1 - 12.7 mm MG was very rare on BRDM-1 (if used at all) - see comments for unit #51, also for a period of usage. 412 BRDM-2 - there's no evidence of BRDM-2 used in CS, apart from NBC recce variant - see comments for unit #53. 414 IS-IIm1944 - name should be changed just to IS-II or rather IS-2 (see http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/1120 , m1944 is modern designation) - especially, that we have no other IS-2 variants. 416 Praga M53/59 - name could be changed to M53/59 Jesterka (popular name, meaning Lizard) or official PLDvK vz.53/59 (but it doesn't have to be changed). 417 2S4 24cm SPM - name is 2S4 Tulpan. The page http://vojenstvi.cz/vasedotazy_81.htm (no.1202) suggests it was used until 1993 (now it's 91). Used from 1984, but I don't know when exactly (now: 1/85). 419 T-40/75N (PzKfw-IV) - used only from 1948, after repairs (now: 1/46) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...-cudzich-armad ). Used until 1956, stored until 1959 (other "obsolete tank" class T-40/75N might be created). There's no evidence, that they carried hull side skirts, on photos they are only on turrets. 422 Praga M53/59M - see #416 425 Lisunov 2 - proper name Lisunov Li-2 or just Li-2 430 BTR-40 AOP - as 410. No signs of its usage. I proposed earlier to create actually used AOP version of OT-65. 433, 434 UAZ-69 Schmel - only 1 was delivered to Czechoslovakia for tests, in 1964 (http://toulky.vojenstvi.cz/foto_index.php?fid=569) or 62/63. To be removed IMO. (formation #82 should be changed according to notes on unit #33). 491 OT-810D - both basic OT-810 and vz.59 gun were introduced only in 1959, so it's earliest possible date (now: 1/54). It also had 7.62mm vz.59 AAMG and ranging MG for a gun. Ammunition for 82mm gun was 30, speed was 20 (60 km/h) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/18793 ) 541 M77 Dana - Dana has 12.7 DShK AAMG, not NSV. It can carry 60 artillery rounds. According to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12305 , first introduced to units in 1980 (now: 1/77) 542 Komsolets - as I've mentioned in other place, it should be changed to some other tractor, for example Ja-12. Specifications would be similar, speed up to 38 km/h, picture - 29395, some trucklike icon, used until 1954 (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/17698 ). In around 1960-75? Czechoslovakia used also Polish D-530 Mazur tractor: http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/19582 . Specifications would be similar, speed up to 53 km/h, picture - 29390, some trucklike icon. Czechoslovakia used also several types of ex-German SdKfz tractors. Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Closing to an end...
249 Crew - could use picture 37249 of CZ-75 pistol. 252 K61 - it was used from 1957 (now: 1/63) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/13543 ). Would need change in form. 335, as the earliest unit. Changes concerning all countries, according to Russian sources, as I've written in other place: speed was only 36 km/h (now: 18), and on water - 10 km/h (now: 6), it could carry 40 soldiers or a gun or a truck, crew was 2 (BTW: in Russian/Czech sources it's always written "K-61"). 253 PTS-M - known locally as PTS-10, it was used from 1962 at least until 2003 (now: 1/68-12/93) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/13003 ). My guess would be until 12/120 - they are useful machines, especially in case of floods, with no successors in the army. Would need change in form. 335. Changes concerning all countries: speed was only 42 km/h and 10 km/h on water (now: 18/6). Also a possible addition is ZiL-485 BAV http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/13008 - used at least from 1957 until some 80s. By the way, as photos show, this and K-61 could mount 2x30mm AA guns... 407 BRM-1 - bought in 1987 (now: 1/91) (article in Polish Nowa Technika Wojskowa 1/2001) 481 Malutka-2 ATGM - there was no such thing. Malutka-2 is a Russian late commercial version with twin HEAT warhead - I don't know if any country bought this otherwise obsolete system, but Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic did not. The weapon #155 Malutka-P indicates, that this isn't twin warhead version, but semi-automatic version, fit for BRDM SP-launchers. Malutka-P could be fired from portable launchers, but in manual mode only, without benefits of increased accuracy comparing with earlier versions. I don't know, if unit #480 should have increased lifespan instead of unit 481. 484, 485 T21 Recoilless - Para-RR - the para RR team would surely use SMGs instead of rifles, initially probably PPS or PPSh or MP-40, from the 1950s.: Sa 26 (#006 vz/24 SMG) (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/16961 - Sa vz.24 was a variant with fixed stock). Same for secondary armament of 475, 476 SG-43 MMG [2] All snipers: more proper picture is 37112 - Vz.54 sniper rifle http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareVZ54.htm Later snipers could use SVD 11112 (actually, from mid-70s). If we make paratroops available earlier, what I've suggested (first experimental battalion existed in 1947), they should have transport. In a quoted article on the CS aviation until 1950 there's no mention about Lisunov Li-2 (unit 425, available from 1/50) - probably they were bought later. At first, CS aviation used Junkers Ju-52 (known as D-52) and C-47 (known locally as D-47) bought in 1946 from US stock. Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
As for ZiL-485 BAV - #185 from Russian oob, with corrections like: no fixed armament, max sped 65 km/h on land, 10 km/h on water, picture 29202 (usually DUKW is used at the moment), carry=some 125 (it could carry guns or jeeps).
Artillery I've omitted it so far. I only wanted to correct pictures first, but when I started to dig... It took me several hours. Apart from a quoted inventory http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/36231 , informations below are based on a series of pages devoted to artillery of Czechoslovak army in different periods: [1] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3105 [2] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3156 [3] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3357 [4] http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3025 91 122mm Field Gun - vz.38 (obr38, M-30) howitzer was used at least until 1981 (now 12/76) [link 4] 92 122mm Field Gun (D-30) - link 4 says, that D-30 replaced vz.38 howitzers from 1981. Lack of this gun on a table: http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...901&fullsize=1 presenting equipment until 1980 strongly suggests, that it wasn't used before 1981 (now: 1/69) 96 130mm M46 FG - one brigade was rearmed with these guns in 1976 (now 1/91) (I'm repeating it here for a sake of completeness) 171 76mm Platoon - extinct by 1968 (now 12/75) - table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 172 85mm Platoon - correct pic is 25009 (M52 gun) 173 122mm Platoon (obr38) - used until 1981 - see #91 174 122mm Platoon (D-30) - used from 1981 - see #92 175 130mm Platoon - used from 1976 (now 1/91) - like #96 unit 176 122mm Gun Pl (M.31/37) - correct pic is 41091. According to link 2, there were none in May 1951. There's no date of first appearance given, only that in bigger numbers it appeared from 1955 (now: 1/50) 177 152mm Platoon - D-20 howitzers weren't used in Czechoslovakia - there's no sign of them on any of these pages. Should be changed to basic Czech 152 mm FH from 1950 until 1980s at least - weapon #113 152mm M18/46 FH (vz.18/47, German 150 mm sFH-18 converted to Soviet ammo). Similar pic is 23077 (original sFH-18) (earlier entry before 1950 is unit #498) 179 105 mm Platoon (vz.18/40, German leFH-18) - correct pic is 23500. According to table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 extinct between 1960 and 1968 (now: 12/96) 180 122mm Platoon - D-74 long range guns weren't used in Czechoslovakia - no sign on quoted pages. 498 152mm Battery (vz.18/47) - more proper pic is 23077 (original sFH-18 howitzer). 500 76mm Battery - weapons should be just popular #122 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG, like unit 171 (weapon 241 is Soviet prewar F-22 gun with long barrel, not used in CS, especially post war) 502 152mm Battery - there's no sign on quoted pages, that Czechoslovakia used Soviet D-1 howitzers. Might be replaced with German 150 mm vz.18N (sFH-18) (used until late 1950s.) - eg. Bulgarian unit #343 (range of Bulgarian weapon #242 and Portugal #115 is probably overstated - 212, while it was only 13.2 km and it should be IMO 203 - more on this subject below) (If you decide to leave it, correct pic for D-1 howitzer is 29402 - BTW, mine) 503 122mm Gun Bty (vz.31/37 FG) - according to link 2, there were none before 1951 - in bigger numbers they appeared only from 1955. So it should be deleted - after 1950 we have unit #176. BTW, correct pic is 41091. It might be replaced with German vz.18N (sK-18), used in small number until 1950s - eg. Bulgarian unit #343, but range should be 19-21 km depending on version (209-211?) 505 122mm 2S1 Pl - first 4 were used since 1976 (now 1/78), but in bigger number from 1980s. 506 152mm Dana Pl - according to http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12305 , introduced in 1980 (now 1/77) Weapons First I didn't mean to check them, but it appeared in connection with guns - then I started to check ranges... Correct me if I'm wrong, but from gun ranges in the Czech oob it seems, that O/M gun game range = approximate range in km + 190 (13 km for ZiS-3 is 203, 17 km for ML-20 = 207, 27 km for M-46 = 217 etc). But in Portugal and Bulgarian oob it apparently doesn't fit (I didn't check others): 25pdr (12 km) = 208 (should be 202?), sFH-18 (to be taken for the Czech oob - 13 km) = 212 (should be 203?). In Bulgarian oob #240 105mm leFH-18 (12 km) has 207 (should be 202 - like #191 in Czech oob) and #241 105mm K18 FG (18-21 km) - also 207... If there is really a "+190" rule, I can check more guns in several other oobs. Back to the Czech weapons: #112 122mm obr38 FH has too long range 209 - in Russian oob #112 122mm M-30 FH has 202 (same weapon, real range was 11.8 km). Maybe designation should be changed to Czech vz.38S, M38 or international M-30 ("obr" was Soviet abbreviation)? #113 152mm M18/46 FH - name should be M18/47 in fact, and range was 15.2 km - 205 (now 202) - http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/674 #191 105mm M18/49 - name should be M18/40 (if it's German LeFH-18/40) - it's also worth to add "FH" #220 122mm M1937 FH - name should be M31/37 FG (Soviet field gun obr.31/37 A-19) #230 85mm M52 FG - too long range 209 - in fact 16,200 m - 206? (http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...itankovy-kanon ) #239 152mm ML20 FG - maybe ML-20 GH? (gun-howitzer according to original nomenclature) Weapons #95 122mm D-74 FG, #240 152mm D-1 FH, #241 76mm L51 obr36 might be replaced with new ones. That's all as for artillery, I guess. Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Supplement:
Weapon 111 152mm D-20 FH - should be changed to 152mm M77 FH used in Dana SP-howitzer. Range is 18.7 km (209?), with base bleed rounds - 20 km (210?). By the way, I don't know if basic D-20 FH in other oobs should have range 214 - its normal range is 17.4 km, and 24 km only with rocket assisted(?) rounds. Miscellaneous weapon comments: 06, 07, 08 - correct form is "vz.", not "vz/" 028 RPG-75 - range against moving target is 200 m, but against still target - 300 m (now: 4) http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/21864 (I don't know if it should be changed, just for information). 053 7.62 SGMT AAMG - proper designation of AAMG variant was SGMB (for all countries) 218 7.62mm vz59 MMG - is kill 7 justified, higher than water-cooled Maxim (5), SG-43 (6) and PKS from Soviet oob (6)? BTW: shouldn't Maxim have higher kill ratio than other MGs, since it was able of sustained fire for longer time? Same for Vickers HMG in the British oob (5). As I see, Maxim and Vickers differ from other MMGs in having a longer range (30 vs 24), but is it correct, with the same ammunition? Or is it a matter of heavy mounts? Just a few thoughts... Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Greetings
- MiG-21PFM - RS-2US -- When it comes to it I can only confirm that there was training with them against ground targets - I don't know if it was planned to use them in combat. - OT-90M2 - Although there are several sources claiming of having this variant, I have seen only one photo to this date. and for artillery: - there should be 100mm vz.53 gun in list of off-map artillery - although it was primarily ATG it was dual purpose weapon like 85mm vz.52 - 122mm M30 howitzer survived atleast till 1990 - not enough D-30 to replace it completely - btw. 203mm - we had only 2S7 Pion from around 1985 to early 1990s |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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Please explain why you wrote this when that weapon in that configuation already exists as unit 369. ??? ] Quote:
Thank you. Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Eh - sorry. That is when I wrote something from computer without game and thus without checking.
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Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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The REASON things like this get screwed up is every other M-30 in the game is named "M-30" or "M30" and all of those have the standard 202 range that the Russian one does. BUT OF COURSE the Czech one was named differently which is why it was missed when the others were standardized so naming them anything other than the standard M-30 would assure they would be missed again ....yes ?.....which is why they are now named M-30 and they now have the correct range and why NONE of the "suggestions" to rename weapons etc. to suit specific nations is going to happen. MOBHack help has a complete list of arty ranges and their conversion number BUT OF COURSE different sources will have different "maximum" ranges ( as I have noted in other posts different "sources" still cannot agree on how fast a Tiger 1 moved ). Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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We appreicate the info but please do NOT post without checking your info against the game first and that goes for EVERYONE Thank You Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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There is no "approximate range in km + 190 " rule and I really do not understand how you figured there might be. The game range conversions for off map arty is posted in the MOBHack help. The 25 pounder range is wrong in both SPWW2 and SPMBT and has already been corrected. Other ranges COULD be slightly off if ranges in yards were not converted to meters before converting to game ranges. The other, simpler, explanation is the ranges were originally taken from a different source. If the Bulgarian leFH-18 differs from the Czech 105mm M18/49 it's because there is no sane way to keep track of multiple national designations for one weapon so that they all stay in sync with one another which is why I have no intention of digging the hole deeper by making the existing problem worse than it is by changing any more weapons to suit nation naming conventions. As for the leFH-18 Hogg lists 4 guns with that designation in part and the maximum range given ranges from 12,325m/13,479 y to 12,700m / 13,889 y which gives a max range for that gun 202-203 and even if yards were used as meters in error the range would be 203 -204 so the 207 in the Bulgarian OOB ( and any other OOBs I find it in ) is wrong and it should be 202 as in W #191 in the Czech OOB which is now named 105mm leFH 18 ( along with all the othes ) so things like this do not happen again and why ( I repeat ) I am NOT going to add to the "nationalized" naming problem that already exists So YES there is a need to review all the arty ranges ( maybe next year )in the game but NO this is not the time because the errors that exist really only occasionally affect counter battery fire and that does not adversely affect game play and , like most "errors" in the game, when (if ) I fix them all nobody is going to notice the game plays any differently than it does now. Don |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
Thanks for an appreciation of picking some bugs in artillery... :D
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There was no need (for me at least) of such an elaborate answer. I'm aware of possible discrepancies in sources, and I'd probably ignore range 201 or 203 for leFH-18 - that's why I've reported 207 as possible error. I won't check all, buf you don't mind, I'll report further bugs in this field if I spot them?... Regards Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
I've just spotted, that several tanks have too high RF values comparing with Soviet OOB:
002, 008 T-34/85 - RF 4 instead of 3. BTW - it isn't clear, if Heat ammo was used in the later one - at least initially. This scan from 1954 Czechoslovak manual doesn't show Heat http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/1058/Mun_cia.jpg (from this page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/33708 ), only "365" family rounds and two CS-made APCBCHE rounds (1 and 2) 003 T-54A, 005 T-55, 009 T-55A, 012 T-54AR, 014 T-54AM - RF 11 instead of 6 (simple sight with range scale) Fire control issues: 015 T-72 - maybe it should have FC 15 (now 10), like Soviet basic T-72 Ural? It was no wonder anyway, and this model was given to Czechoslovakia and Poland when newer T-72A was on the way, so maybe they didn't simplified it more. 219 T-55AM2P KMT-6 - has FC 20, while ordinary #011 T-55AM2 with the same Kladivo FCS - 25 221 T-72M1 KMT-6 - has FC 25, while ordinary #018 T-72M1 - 20 (also Soviet T-72A) Some leftovers: 473 Para Engineers - it's unlikely for 1980+ unit to have vz.24 SMG from the 50s - may be rather general issue vz.58 like #472 unit (then pic 37099 - current one isn't vz.24 anyway) 511 82mm Mortar Pl - SKS rifle wasn't used in CS - may be 006 vz/24 SMG or 020 M38/44 Carbine 516 12cm Mortar Sec - according to this table http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 withdrawn by 1968 (now 12/82). Seems, that they returned to mortars only with vz.82 model (I don't know when, but we might leave 517 unit as it is). This gap would make mess in formations 048, 054 and would need date correction in formations 216, 236, 237. 520 16cm Mortar - in 1951 there were none (http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=3156 ), no mention on a page on 1945-1948 artillery either (now: 1/46-12/54). According to this page there was a licence production from 1954, but there's no info, it they were imported before this date. I'd set 1953 or 54 as a starting date (closer to truth, than 1946). Needs change in formation #192. 520 16cm Mortar - used until 1960 at least (http://www.palba.cz/forumfoto/displa...084&fullsize=1 ) (now 12/59). Needs change in formation #192. SKS rifle wasn't used in CS - may be 006 vz/24 SMG or 020 M38/44 Carbine 526-529 Para Observer - it's unlikely for 1980+ unit to have vz.24 SMG from the 50s - may be rather 005 Skorpion 533-535 Observer Team - as above - rather general issue vz.58 rifle, like unit 532. Last unit might receive #13 CZ 905 (from 2011 actually) 543 Prime Mover - better picture, of the Czechoslovak vehicle is Tatra 65480 or 29173 922 Su-25K - it could carry even 120 rockets 80mm (now: 80) - 6x20-tube - there could be added third weapon #186 with 10 shots. 926 Su-22M-4 - it could carry 192 rockets 57mm (now: 144) - 6x32-tube launcher configuration - weapons could be given 8 shots instead of 6. There could be also created a common variant with 4x20 more useful 80mm rockets - two weapons 186 4x80mm rocket with 10 shots (like unit #925) or three with 7,7,6 shots. 153 Su-22M-4 (omitted earlier) - it could carry 6x500 kg bombs instead of 4 (max load is 8). 930 Su-7B - should be renamed Su-7BM or BKL, acquired only in early 1964 (now 1/61 - source: see unit #149). Armament is OK. It could be used until end of 80s (now 1/81) or there could be created Su-7BKL from 1/70 until 12/89 with added third weapon #185 4x57mm S-5 with 8 shots (6-hardpoint variant with 6x16 rockets). Eventually, from mid-70s there could be variant with some EW underwing pod. There could be created additional Su-7BKL variants - 4 x #176 240mm S-24 Rkt (from 1964) - 6 x #176 240mm S-24 Rkt (from 1970) That's the end as for now. Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
209 RBS-90 SAM - it should be named RBS-70. First delivered in 12/105, presented to public in unit in 3/106 (now:1/107) [Raport 04/2006]
From 4/08 the Czech Republic uses in Afghanistan several IVECO LMV with 12.7mm MG (unit #224 from Italian oob) and Dingo 2 with 7.62mm MG3 (unit 66 from German oob) [Armia 09/2009, http://gdziewojsko.wordpress.com/arm...ske-republiky/ ] I don't know, if T-72M4CZ should have weaker basic turret armour, than T-72M1. Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
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Michal |
Re: Czech OOB 5.5
048 S-125 Neva - first unit bought in 1971, two more in 1972, so 1/72 is realistic date (http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/eksport_pzr.html ) (now 1/73).
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