communion mechanics
 

Can some1 explain in detail how communions work, and open the mechanics with examples and numbers.

Also, it would be nice to hear what they are good for and some war stories from the past?

Re: communion mechanics
 

99% of what you are looking for can be found in Baalz's excellent communion guide (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37499). He does a very thorough job of explaining the raw mechanics, weird edge cases as well as most of the main strategic uses for communions (normal, reverse, line-backer, etc.).

Re: communion mechanics
 

Why, thank you!

Re: communion mechanics
 

While this is mentioned in the guide, one thing I had to realize for myself was how an 8+ communion-slave communion is exponentially better than a 4-7 communion-slave communion. I have seen the difference and it is staggering; something which I want to emphasize here.


While most people would think the point of an 8+ communion is to get the masters a +3 in all their paths, the real advantage is that all the slaves are treated as though they have a +3 in all their paths for the purpose of determining their fatigue from the masters' castings.

For example, if you have 4x A1S1 masters spamming Thunder Strike (A3, evoc 4, 50 fatigue) and 8x A1S1 slaves, each slave is treated as having A4 for determining their fatigue from each of the masters' castings. Each master generates 25 fatigue (50/2 because their air magic is one level higher than is needed) which is divided evenly between the 8 slaves (so roughly 3 fatigue each). Also, each slave receives fatigue as though they had cast the spell (also 25 since they are each considered an A4), again divided by the number of slaves (once again, roughly 3 fatigue each). Therefore 4 masters spamming an expensive but potent air evocation will cause roughly (3+3)*4 = 24 fatigue per slave per round... which the slaves can endure for 8-9 rounds before they start suffering damage from fatigue > 200.

Now, assume you have the same scenario but only 2 masters and 7 slaves. Each master is an A3 generating the full 50 fatigue, which turns into roughly 7 fatigue given to each slave. Each slave also receives fatigue as though they had cast the spell getting them another 7 per slave per casting. That's (7+7)*2 = 28 fatigue per slave per round... which the slaves can endure for 7-8 rounds before they break 200 fatigue.

In the 8 slave example you had a 2-1 slave-to-master ratio which allowed for 4 heightened-damage Thunder Strikes (an A4 strike does more damage than an A3) per round for 8-9 rounds. In the 7 slave example allowed for 7-8 rounds of 2 lesser-damaging thunder strikes even though the communion had better than a 3-1 slave-to-master ratio.



With a little proper care, you can get a LOT of mileage out of a communion. Don't skimp on communion slaves if you don't have to. Also, giving them path boosts cast by one or more of the communion masters will get you another order of magnitude improvement in their performance. These are spells like power of the spheres, storm power, phoenix power, earth power (which also grants sweet, sweet reinvig-4) and strength of gaia (which also gives your slaves +4 strength, barkskin and regen... a fine suite of buffs).

Re: communion mechanics
 

What the heck, just to really drive this last point home, let's look at a gratuitous communion: 8x A1S1 masters and 8x A1S1 slaves. Assume two of the masters each have a Crystal Matrix (auto-casts communion master on them at the start of battle).

Round 1: 6 of the masters cast Communion Master, 8 slaves cast Communion Slave, the 2nd-to-last caster (with a crystal matrix) casts Power of the Spheres and the last caster (also with a crystal matrix) casts Storm Power. If we only pay attention to their air paths, 6 masters have A4, two masters have A5 and each slave is an A3 but counted as an A6 for communion-fatigue purposes.

Round 2: Each master casts Thunder Strike. 6 are A4s, giving (50/2 )/8=3 fatigue per slave per casting. Two are A5s, giving (50/3)/8=2 fatigue per slave per casting. Each slave is considered an A6 giving them (50/4)/8=1.5 fatigue per slave per casting. That's 3*6 + 2*2 + 1.5*8 = 18 + 4 + 12 = 34 fatigue per slave per turn from 6 A4 and 2 A5 Thunder Strikes per turn. That communion can last for 6 rounds before the slaves start taking damage.

The first example got us 36x A4 Thunder Strikes over the course of 9 rounds before we started damaging slaves. This last example got us 48 Thunder Strikes over the course of 6 rounds, 12 of which were A5 strikes. Not only did it get us more damage, it got us faster damage. With path buffs, we microwaved the battlefield in record time. Without path buffs, that 1-1 master-to-slave ratio would microwaved our slaves even sooner.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Also, having slaves with natural regen, or throwing in a master that casts personal regeneration upps the survivability of your slaves a lot. If they get over 200 fatigue, the hp damage gets healed away.

Also, if you summon earthpower, the slaves will get the reinvigoration even without having earth magic themselves.

Of course mistform, air shield and mirror image raise the survivability of your slaves a great deal.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Don't forget about the masters. Fatigue for one spell cast by a master with eight slaves is split nine ways, with each mage's fatigue figured individually. A small five member communion with 4 1E1S mages and 1 1S mage, all enc3, scripted so that 1 of the 1E1S is the master, then 4x Gifts from Heaven (3E1S). The other 4 are slaves doing nothing else.

Turn 1
1E1S casts communion master 23 fatigue (20+3)
4 slaves cast communion slave 23 fatigue (20+3)
Turn 2
1E1S casts Gifts from Heaven (50 fatigue spell/5 members=10+3enc) + 23 = 36 total fatigue
first 3 slaves 36 fatigue (same calculation)
last slave (no E to start) 10*2 + enc*2 or 26 + 23 = 49 total fatigue
Turn 3
master and first 3 slaves +13=49 total fatigue
last slave +26 = 75 total fatigue
Turn 4
master and first 3 slaves - 62 total fatigue
last slave - 101 total fatigue
Turn 5
master and first 3 slaves - 75 total fatigue
last slave - 122 total fatigue (I think units w/over 100 fatigue recover 5pts automatically)

I don't believe the master's level affects the slave's fatigue. Just whether or not he can cast the spell.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Lets talk gratuitous communion. Every slave receives all buffs cast by any master. Say we are looking at Vanheim or similar, and Air-Earth-Nature (indie mage for the last bit) is in play. One Strength of Gaia and Personal Regeneration later, the slaves are now regenerating both fatigue and health, and can probably last another three turns, which is huge. Outside of a few edge cases, you will burn out eventually (edge case examples: Surround your communion slaves with trolls set to guard commander. Anything with regeneration can work here, but trolls are probably the easiest to come by. Now, have a communion master case Soul Vortex. The slaves will last as long as they need to), and reinvig counts for a lot.

Re: communion mechanics
 

On the other forum, this was posted recently.

PROVING a Communion Fatigue Formula

I had done some testing a while back, and my simple formula fit my test cases well enough, but I did not do what could be called extensive testing. This formula also explains my test results, where mine fails to explain his.

Oh heck, I usually just ballpark it anyway.

Thanks to theDemon and friends.

Re: communion mechanics
 

You're forgetting the most important spell for communion, Reinvigoration. Removes all fatigue from a communion, all fatigue, which is absolutely awesome. It's a blood spell, however, so remember that (so if you have a blood mage that can enter a communion via sabbath, do it).

Works especially well with reverse communions, where the goal is buffing your slaves with PotS and other spells so they can all cast evocations. If you're say Bogsrus, form a reverse communion with as many A2S1 guys that you can (since it's Bogarus, 30+ mage communions are fairly easy to make), have couple masters (at the end of the turn order, since if a master casts before a slave, the slave won't cast [I learned this the hard way, hahah]) cast buffs from Mistform to PotS to Earthpower to whatever battlefield spells you need (Flaming Arrows, whatever), and script reinvigoration in alternation on Diabloists or Starets (because reinvig needs master fatigue to cast). Watch as you rain dozens of thunderstrikes, Gifts, Falling Fire, Magma Eruptions, Astral Fires, whatever you desire, and decimate the enemy army, all with pretty much nonexistent fatigue.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Don't forget the value of combinations like 'resist fire', 'flame storm', or 'resist poison', 'foul vapors'. Suddenly all your casters share the elemental immunity that their troops presumably possess (summon lots of firesnakes for example) THEN drop the big thunderstrikes or whatever.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Yes, but experience has shown this to be hard to rely on. Battlefield placement is far more important when blood is involved. A nearby master might just grab a few slaves meant for someone else, screwing up lots of well laid plans. Also, the fatigue on the master casting reinvig, iirc the fatigue has to be significant, or it may go off script.

Perhaps nitpicking, but not all casters, rather all slaves and the master casting the spell. Other masters will have to hit themselves or buff with items.

Re: communion mechanics
 

true.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Yeah, it makes things abit more difficult to run properly. However, the payoff (far larger number of evocations spammed) is definitely worth it.

It just requires clever scripting, and alternation using several masters (i.e. 4 masters stagger-casting Reinvigoration with one slave each (the first one casting reinvig can cast Sabbath Master instead to get the fatigue), or 2 double casting reinvigoration at staggered intervals, with a highish fatigue spell in between).

Re: communion mechanics
 

My specialty. ;)

Re: communion mechanics
 

Yes...and as LL said, make sure they are casting high fatigue spells...or else you may suddenly find some imps fighting on your side!!

Re: communion mechanics
 

Excuse if this question is not to do with Communion. I have seen my virgins standing around on the battlefield (hussies, they're probably just there to flirt...). Are you saying that with blood casting anyone can help themselves to a common pool of slaves? I assumed each mage had to come equipped with his own, like gems? Or maybe that this applies in communion only?

Re: communion mechanics
 

There is a range.... Perhaps half the field? There is a thread somewhere.
ssj

Re: communion mechanics
 

Could you/someone please clarify: even if there is a range involved, are you saying that mages help themselves to one another's slaves, unlike gems?? If that's so, it does make planning harder.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Yes, mages uses slaves from other mages, or even non mages. (Not the enemy ones iirc).

Re: communion mechanics
 

IIRC the range is 8 squares not including the square the Blood mage is standing in.

(all coordinates are for attacker as I remember those better than defender ones)

Notes

- The square the Slave itself is in is what matters, not the square the commander the Slave is equipped to. (ie. Slaves surround the commander like guards do. They don't and can't all stand in the same square when there are more than 3, or 2 and the commander)

- Range doesn't change when Slave and BMage are in a different column AND row.


Practical Example

If there is a Slave in 14,15 (the default commander position) then...

1 - a BMage in 6,15 (far left centre) can use the Slave
2 - a BMage in 6,7 (top left corner) can use the Slave as 15-7 = 8
3 - a BMage in 6,24 (bottom left corner) can not use the Slave as 24-15 = >8


All the above is purely from memory as I can't access my Dom notes right now, and even though I do have a good memory, I could be misremembering slightly. Plus this is very easy to test, which everyone who really wants to know the answer to this should do. Because...

A - it gets you the answer.
B - it's good for you.
C - you don't wear out the goodwill of knowledgeable folk who are really needed when the genuinely tough questions come up.

I would retest myself, but really don't see why I should when I don't need the answer myself right now. (and I trust my memory)

Re: communion mechanics
 

It also has advantages, in that if you run out of slaves while in the field you can teleport in another mage and have those slaves used immediately rather than needing a turn to redistribute them as you would with gems.

Re: communion mechanics
 

On the other hand, there are some huge disadvantages. Battlefield evocations can't just drain gem pools, but slaves can be slaughtered wholesale. That's a pretty major downside.

With that said, there is also some general screwing around you can do in single player that more than makes up for it. Blood Slave thugs are completely and utterly absurd (and generally worthless), and as such oddly entertaining.

Re: communion mechanics
 

all this makes my head hurt.

i just plan on getting killed by midgame...

Re: communion mechanics
 

Nah, just drop a rain of stones, or a couple of earthquakes...

Gets rid of the slaves it does...

:D

Re: communion mechanics
 

For those of us who are not very good at all of this :re: it's bad news. I have gotten the hang of letting those who can't spend gems carry around for those who can, so that I can ration. I had been doing same in current game with slaves. I thought I'd noticed that slaves carried by non-BMs were getting used on battlefield... I now know I need to physically separate the carriers from the BMs!

Re: communion mechanics
 

Let scouts carry the slaves. Keep them hidden and out of the fights.
It's best for gems too. It means they don't get killed off by a luck shot.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Yeah, if you don't have armies of scouts supporting your armies around the map (at least one of which should always be in the same province as the army it's feeding, and preferably a minimum of two should be supporting a given army just in case you go to move and have your movement blocked), you're probably not going to be able to survive the middle game, much less the late game. And scouts are much, much superior to the job than visible commanders are. I am personally willing to summon shadow servants just to put on gem-carrying duty if for some reason my scout population is excessively constrained.

Re: communion mechanics
 

Because scouts show up all the tiume when you click "n" through your units, I try to avoid building many! But I understand what you guys are saying, thanks.