|
Anomaly reports
One of the (dubious?) joys of retirement is that, until I get my garden some time next year, I have little to devote my time to but shopping, cooking and SP. I have therefore taken some time to separate the unit spreadsheet into classes (how sad is that?!) if only to enhance my own oobs.
However, in the course of so doing, I will probably throw up various anomalies, if only because different oob designers have had their own ideas over the years. For example, Class 172 (Bicycle Squad) shows Finnish (oob 65) units 505, 506 and 507 as Size = 2, although other units of the same class (with more crew) are Size = 1. Don/Andy, if stuff like this (and 90% of it will probably be this trivial, I've only just started) is useful, I'll continue to post it. If not, please let me know and I shan't waste your or my time. Cheers Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
AFAIR, push bikes should be same size as cavalry (2 IIRC). Though I cannot se anyone sane actually using them outside a scenario where they were dumped on you :)! (The French scooter with RCL is a cute little thing, though !:D) Andy |
Re: Anomaly reports
Hi Andy
Thanks for that, will keep posting them in this thread. The Swiss still have bikes up to 2020 - ideal terrain for them :) UI'd have actually gone for Size = 1: a man on a bike can put his feet on the ground, and if he's crouched over handlebars, he becomes smaller than his marching counterpart. Man on horse is much taller . . . . Yes, I must try that little French machine :) |
Re: Anomaly reports
Denmark Units 356, 357 & 358 - have a Load Cost of 10, where other cyclist units have 0.
Sweden Unit 131 likewise. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Unit Class 7 – AGL.
Iraq 335, Mujahedin 70 & 71, Afghanistan 70, E.Germany 97, Czechoslovakia 97, W.Germany 258, 259 & 262 have Load Cost = 1. The other 52 units all have Load Cost = 0. E.Germany 97 has FC = 5. May be a super Zeiss sight they forgot to tell the Russians about . . . All other AGL apart from Poland 97 have FC = 1. The Polish unit has FC = 0, but it is a different weapon. Israel 182 has AP rounds, as opposed to HEAT (yes, it’s a Mk.47 in Slot 1, same stats as other Mk.47s). Great Britain 730 & 731 have Speed 5, whereas W.Germany 259 & 262 (same weapon) have Speed 4. And the Brits are carrying 20 more rounds (same crew size). USA 774 & 775 have Crew 3, the other Mk.47s (USMC 776 & 783, Israel 182) have Crew 4. I can’t find a source that gives the correct number, although as it’s apparently 100 lb lighter than the Mk.19, I’d hazard a guess at 3. In similar vein, of the 25 Mk.19s in game, a slight majority (13) have Crew 4. USA 95, 105 & 772, Greece 375, Turkey 378 & 379, Green 95, W.Germany 258, Argentina 97, Finland 90 and Indonesia 88 & 89 have 3. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Unit Class 115 – Airmobile Section.
France 341 has an ISD of 1/82. However, formations do not appear until 1/86. Unit Class 185 – Airmobile Heavy Infantry Is only used by Poland; most of their other Airmobile units are paras, and they have no units in Class 97 (Paratroop Support). You could perhaps save a Unit Class here? Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
|
Re: Anomaly reports
Units 178 USA & 178 USMC (Both LVT(A) 2): USA has Crew 2, USMC 4. Armour is USA Steel 2/1/1/2/1/1/0, HEAT 3/2/2/3/2/2/0, USMC Steel 2/2/2/2/2/2/1. HEAT 3/3/3/2/2/2/1. Looking at http://afvdb.50megs.com, which IMHO is generally pretty accurate, the USA armour is the correct version, and Crew is 3.
@ Pats: possibly IRL - in game you can cycle away till December 2020. Now get hoofing up those Alps:D Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Unit Class 33 – Light Amphibian
Netherlands 322 and Italy 203 (Both Bv.206): Dutch version has Crew 2, Lift Capacity 114, Weight 12, Smoke 0; Italian has Crew 4, Lift Capacity 115, Weight 11, Smoke 2. Both are available at the same time, no carry issues with either. N.Yemen 219 & UN 235 have Survivability 0, other DUKWs in same class have 4. UN 235 & Peru 235 have Lift Capacity 25, other DUKWs in same class have 125. France 234/235/236: Crew of 6/7 in a vehicle barely 10 feet by 5 . . . . .nah,can’t see it somehow. Russia 185, Hungary 235 and Bulgaria 251 have 24, Red 240 has 14, all other ZiS/Zil-485s have Speed 20. The same culprits have Swim Speed 5 (All others have 3), Survivability 0 (Others have 4), Lift Capacity 25 (Others have 125). NB Cambodia 561 in Class 34 has the same anomalies. Unit Class 34 – Heavy Amphibian Poland 417 & 703 – apart from having different AP ammo (5 & 25), these are statistically equal. Indonesia 51 has different stats from all other PTS-Ms. LVTP-7 - Thailand 60 is Size 7, all others Size 6. Same unit has FC 1, all others 0. Spain 187 has Speed/Swim Speed 24/6, all others are 21/5. Survivability is mixed. USA 183, S.Korea 182, Spain 187 & Thailand 60 have 5, The remainder (USMC 183, Italy 207 & 208, Green 239, Argentina 237, Brazil 238) have 4. Spain 187, Italy 207 & 208 have Crew 3, all others are Crew 4. Lift Capacity varies from 121 to 126. The only one with the standard loadout (125) is Italy 207. Weights for Italy 207 & 208 are 23 & 24 (different models) respectively. Others are Weight 99-101 (basically non-carryable which, when a vehicle can go just about anywhere, seems logical). LVTP-5 (USA 182, USMC 182, Taiwan 182, ARVN 108, Spain 186, Italy 206, Green 238, Chile 238, Nigeria 214, S.Yemen 222, N.Yemen 223) have varying Size, Crew, Speed and Swim Speed. The USA model appears to be the standard, and its stats are followed by the ARVN and Italy. Again, the Italian version has a carryable Weight (25) – what is it with these guys? Should either Yemen have them at all? SIPRI (not infallible, but a decent guideline) has no record of a transfer, and I have the full database from 1950 to 2010. Spain 186 has Carry 136 and Survivability 5, all others have 134 & 4. Italy 206 & Spain 186 have HEAT TF 4, all others have 3 except for ARVN 108, which has no HEAT armour at all. AAV7A1 - Argentina 238 has FC 0, all others 1. It also has sabot ammo (should be HEAT). Brazil 239 & Greece 9 have Rate of Fire 9, all others have 8 (same weapon). This may be a consequence of having swapped Weapons 1 & 2. Same applies to USMC 690 & 691. CAMANF - Green 236 & Nigeria 215 have Speed 24, Swim Speed 5, others have 18/4 except Uruguay 581, which has 12/5. I believe 24/5 are the correct values, so the ‘odd men out’ are Brazil, Chile, Ecuador and El Salvador (Unit 236 in all cases).. Lift Capacity for El Salvador 236 and Uruguay 581 is 25, 125 in all others. Survivability is mixed :4 for Chile, Ecuador and El Salvador, 0 for the other 4. DUKWs – Uruguay 580 has Speed/Swim Speed 12/5, all others have 17/3. Survivability 4 except for S.Korea 180, Canada 255, Spain 184 and Uruguay 580 (all 0). Lift Capacity 25 for France 435, UK 292, Australia 268, S.Korea 180, Taiwan 180, Canada 255, Indonesia 54 & Uruguay 580, 125 for the others (a slight majority). Canada 255 has 2 Smoke, others 0. UK 292, Australia 268 & Canada 255 have Rate of Fire 6, others 9. Indonesia 54 is the only unarmed DUKW. EFV. USMC 189 & Italy 209 only, but their stats differ considerably. USMC looks correct – cut & paste job? K61 – Indonesia 50 has Crew 2, all others 3, and has different armour stats from all others (IIRC it’s actually unarmoured, but that may make it too vulnerable?). Croatia 541 & Indonesia 50 have Lift Capacity 250, others 150. LVT 4 – Both afvdb and www.wwiivehicles.com have Crew 3, + 30 passengers. In game, crew range from 3 to 6, lift capacity from 24 to 130, and swim speeds from 4 to 6. Land speed is either 13 or 16. Authorities differ on land speed, giving either 32 kph (11) or 40 kph (13). Swim speed is generally quoted as 11-12 kph (4). To save time & space, rather than give individual stats I’ll just add the list of affected units:- France 437; UK 295; USA 180; USMC 180; Australia 270; S.Korea 181; Taiwan 181; ARVN 107; Netherlands 325; Canada 256; Spain 185; Italy 205; Green 237; Argentina 236; Brazil 237; Thailand 59; Cambodia 560 & 562 (one of these is called ‘Nampo’, but it appears to be the same animal with revised armament); Chile 237; Nigeria 213; S.Yemen 221; N.Yemen 221; Ecuador 237. Spain 185 has Rangefinder and FC of 1, all others 0. Canada 256 & Italy 205 have 2 Smoke, all others 0. UK 295, Australia 270 and Canada 256 have RoF 6, all others 9. S.Korea 181, Taiwan 181, ARVN 107 and Cambodia 560 have Weapons 3 & 4 without ammunition. Steel Armour – 2/1/1/2/1/1/0 appears to be standard, but only France 437, UK 295, Australia 270, Canada 256, S.Yemen 221, N.Yemen 221 and Ecuador 237 have this configuration. HEAT Armour – UK 295, USA 180, Australia 270, S.Korea 181, Taiwan 181, ARVN 107, Canada 256, Thailand 59 and Cambodia 560 do not have it, the others do, but they are not all configured equally. USMC has Icons 3344/5/6, all others have 242. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
LVT(A) 4 – Land speed ranges from 13 to 15. I believe 13 is correct so this affects France 436 (which also has Swim Speed 5, all others 4), USA 179, USMC 179 and Indonesia 49. Again, USA 179 has Lift Capacity 0, all others 13.
FC ranges from 0 to 2. As LVT(A) 1 has FC 2, suggest same applies to this model. Affects France 436, USA 179 & Australia 271, and same comments apply to Rangefinder – see above. USMC 179 and Indonesia 49 have Weapon 1 Ammo 100, others (France, USA, Australia) 60. I believe 100 is correct. Same countries have different armour stats from the other 3. LVTH-6 – USA 176 has Rangefinder 2, USMC 176 has 3. Type 60 – China 472 has Rangefinder 1, NVA 3 has 2. Type 63 – NVA 4 has Speed/Swim Speed 23/5, others have 22/4. N.Korea 4 has Survivability 4, all others 3. China 473 has RoF 6, all others 7. Albania 3 and Zimbabwe 205 have RF 5, others 2. NVA 4 and Albania 3 have 47 main gun rounds, others (China, N.Korea, Zimbabwe) have 45. NVA 4 has different armour stats from all others. PT-76B – E.Germany 3 has Stabiliser 0, all others 2. PT-76 – Finland 3 has Carry Capacity 9, all others 6. China 471 has Rangefinder 1, all others 5. China 471 & N.Korea 2 have HEAT Turret armour 6/2/2/1, all others have 6/3/3/2. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 169 – Ski SMG
Yugoslavia 62/63/64 and Croatia 55 are actually MMG teams. Suggest moving to Class 254 (Machinegun Team), which is not currently used by either oob. Class 163 – Heavy Ski Troops Switzerland 676-683 have Speed 7, all others have 6. Sweden 92 & 93 have Load Cost 1, all others 0. Yugoslavia 443 & 444 and Croatia 443 & 444 are SAM teams. I can see why it’s been done but these are the only oobs to make the distinction between Alpine & ‘ordinary’ infantry SAM teams. It’s not even as if they fit into an ‘Alpine Company’ formation, they are both stand-alones. Class 162 – Ski Troops Switzerland 666-672, speed as Class 163. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
Don |
Re: Anomaly reports
I don't have time ATM to go through every one of these but they have been noted down and if I feel the need to comment I will sometime in the future but there will ALWAYS be variations in things like carry capacity to accommodate different nations unit set ups. It's simpler to increase a carry capacity by a couple of points than it is to tear apart units and formations to fit some "standard" carry capacity of a truck or a LVT or whatever. In real life issues like squad size vers a vehicles carry capacity can be dealt with by breaking up the squad but that cannot be done in the game so sometimes it is expeditious to fudge the numbers a bit to make the game work smoothly
|
Re: Anomaly reports
1 Attachment(s)
Don
Quite understand the issue of fudging carry capacity. This is also why I haven't made any mention of differences in Radio%, Ammo loadouts or different weapons (unless they look really incongruous. I can leave the issue of Lift Capacity alone if you'd prefer. After all, I used to think 13 tank riders was rather OTT until I saw the attached:D It has its title because I vowed that never again would I question tank riders! One of the reasons I started this little exercise now was because I took note of your remark about looking at the oobs 'in a few weeks time'. So long as you're happy for me to keep churning stuff out in the interim . . . . (I must have worked through at least 30 classes out of the 250-odd so far, so I can't see a finish line before Christmas. Plus I'm going away for a couple of weeks, then packing up to move house, etc etc) Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 35 – Amphibian Tank
LVT(A) 1 – USA 177 has Lift Capacity 0, others have 13. Same unit has Rangefinder 2, others have 3. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Rather than leave Lift Capacity entirely alone (it was a timely intervention as I've just been doing the 'Trucks and Transport' section), I've left it in either where the difference would mean an increase in capacity for the unit in question, or where I have checked against all relevant formations that they will not be affected (stand-alone prime movers etc).
Class 183 – Light Truck Rhodesia 52 is armoured, all others unarmoured. It also has FC 1 (all others 0). Switzerland 611, Albania 329 and Rhodesia 52 are armed, all others are not. Saudi Arabia 252 is Size 4, all others 2 or 3. Albania 329 has Crew 4, UK 287 & Rhodesia 52 have 3, all others 2. Class 180 – Artillery Prime Mover BTR-50PK - Egypt 581 has Lift Capacity 116, others have 118. Komsolets - Poland 542, Russia 552, Czech 542, Hungary 542 – small point, but could the name be changed to ‘Komsomolets’ please? Czech 542 has Lift Capacity 116, others have 115. Morris Quad - UK 570 has Survivability 2, others have 4. MT-LB. Poland 63, Iraq 541, E.Germany 591, Cuba 551, Angola 551, Sudan 546, N.Yemen 546 and Tanzania 551 have Crew 4, others have 2. I believe 2 is correct. Russia 551, Iraq 541, Cuba 551, Angola 551, Sudan 546, N.Yemen 546, Ukraine 551 and Tanzania 551 have no Swim Speed, others have 2. Russia 551 has Survivability 4, all others 3. Of the armed versions, Hungary 63 and Bulgaria 586 have Rangefinder 1, others have 3. “Prime Mover” – Finland 339 has Size 3, all others 4. Finland 339 and Ukraine 550 have Crew 2, all others 4. Not getting into other differences, because they can always represent national variations. However Survivability 4 (Finland 339) strikes me as a bit high when others have 0 or 1. Finland is also the only one to have Load Cost 10 (others 12). Ukraine 550 has Lift Capacity 115, which strikes me as low compared to all others (124-126). “Truck” – All Size 3 except Poland 543 and N.Yemen 545, which are 4. All Crew 2 except Algeria 590 (3) and N.Yemen 545 (4). All Speed 18 except N.Yemen 545 (16). All Survivability 0 except N.Yemen 545 (1). All Lift Capacity 118 except N.Yemen 545 (130). All Load Cost 12 except Algeria 590 (10). Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 167 – Snow Vehicle
Mechanical Mule – Turkey 199 has Lift Capacity 110, others 114. Bv.202 – Finland 40 & Sweden 63 have Size 2 and Speed 13, Norway 58 & 60 have 4 and 16. UK 296 appears to be a hybrid unit, but with more characteristics of the Bv.206. Sweden 63 & 65 have Weight 11, all others 10. Bv.206 – Norway 59 & W.Germany 382 have Size 4, others 3. Sweden 64 & W.Germany 382 have Speed 17, others 16. UK 296 & Canada 220 have Swim Speed 1, others 2. Lift Capacity varies from 112 to 117. I believe that, with 2 crew, the correct figure is 114. Those with less than 114 are:- UK 296, Canada 220. UK 296 & Canada 220 have Weight 10, Finland 42 has 14 (maybe because it’s armed?), all others 12. Class 138 – Heavy Transport I know these are only meant to be for scenario designers, but:- Egypt 577, Poland 548, Syria 498, Israel 607, Japan 487, France 621, UK 572, Jordan 582, Iran 517, Russia 990, USA 977, USMC 997, China 601, Australia 611, Gulf 599, Iraq 542, India 553, N.Korea 910, S.Korea 341, Taiwan 500, NVA 381, Pakistan 287, Belgium 360, Netherlands 360, Norway 393, Canada 540, Greece 400, Turkey 198, Spain 360, Italy 234, Denmark 360, Czech 544, Hungary 544, Romania 451, Libya 597, Yugoslavia 608, Green 419, Red 445, W.Germany 506, Argentina 648, S.Africa 573, Switzerland 275, Saudi Arabia 597, Finland 343, Sweden 360, Sudan 605, UN 291 and Somalia 298 all have Speed 0. Others have 9. Turkey 198 is Move Class 3, all others 2. It also has Lift Capacity 250, others have 255. Jordan 582 & N.Korea 910 have Weight 15, all others 28. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 109 – Wagon
Belgium 469, Indonesia 303 and Malaysia 511 have Crew 4, others 2. They also have Lift Capacity 112, all others 118. Their Weight is 20, all others 15. NVA 605 has Speed 6, all others 7. Belgium 259 has Survivability 2; Argentina 511, Chile 511, Portugal 472 and Paraguay 511 have 4, all others 0. Class 56 – Ammo Carrier. Most Ammo Ships have a Lift Capacity of 250. ARVN 233, Netherlands 232, Turkey 206, Denmark 232, Yugoslavia 590, Bosnia 590, Croatia 590 and S.Yemen 233 have 0 Lift Capacity. Canada 259 has Lift Capacity 110, all other M548 ammo carriers have 0. Israel 373 and Norway 347 have Survivability 4, all other M548 have 3. Italy 239 has Size 2, Crew 4, Speed 7, Weight 10; all other ammo mules have 4/2/6/12. Red 444 has Lift Capacity 250, all other K61 munitions have 0. Syria 594 has Size 2, all other ammo bunkers have 1. Lebanon 239 has Size 1, all other ammo dumps have 2. Poland 232 has Speed 18, all other ammo trucks have 15. NB: Poland, USA and Viet Cong all have 2 ammo trucks (230 & 232, 230 & 312 and 230 & 233 respectively). The only differences between them are for Poland Speed, for the USA Crew and for Viet Cong Radio%. And ISDs for all. Japan 332, UK 389 and Australia 291 have Survivability 1, all other ammo trucks have 0. Russia 232 has Speed 15, all other BTR munitions have 16. It also has Survivability 3 (Cuba 321 & Angola 321 have 2, Libya has 4). The standard survivability figure for BTR-50s in Class 25 is 4. E.Germany 255 and Libya 322 have Lift Capacity 112, other BTR munitions have 0. Indonesia 231 has no top armour, others have 1. Russia 231 and Sweden 226 have Crew 2, other MT-LB munitions have 3. For Russia, may be because it is the only unarmed MT-LB ammo carrier. Yugoslavia 592, Bosnia 592 and Croatia 592 have Survivability 1, Cuba 322 and Angola 322 have Survivability 2, other MT-LB munitions have 3. Syria 241, Sweden 226 and Lebanon 237 have Lift Capacity 111, other MT-LB munitions have 0. All these also have FC 0, other armed MT-LB munitions have 1. Syria and Lebanon also have Rangefinder 0 (see below). Iraq 321 and Angola 322 have Rangefinder 3, other armed MT-LB munitions have 1. Turkey 203 is the only armoured wheeled Ammo Carrier. Indonesia 231 has Size 4, all other armoured ammo carriers have 3. ARVN 231 and Switzerland 236 have Crew 4, other armoured ammo carriers have 2. Iran 206 has Speed 20, USA 232 and ARVN 231 have Speed 23, all other M113 carriers have 18. ARVN 231 also has Survivability 3, other similar have 4. Class 48 – Barge Carriers Italy 248 has Speed 12, all others have 9. Spain 248 and Italy 248 are Move Class 3, all others either ‘Default’ or 2. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 28 – Heavy Truck
I don’t know how standardised you want to be here, but IIRC I’ve heard Don mention something about not individualising trucks, so here goes:- Austria 145 and Sweden 542 are the only 2 armoured Class 28s. They are not the only Class 28s in either oob. Sweden 553 is the only armed heavy truck. Bulgaria is the only oob without a heavy truck. Sweden 555 has Size 3; USMC 60, Yugoslavia 526, Algeria 599, Bosnia 526, Chad 598, Saudi Arabia 256, Lebanon 598, UN 50 & 51 and Nicaragua 300 have Size 5, all others have Size 4. There’s a case for the UN vehicles because they are buses rather than trucks, but I’d be tempted to make them a different class (maybe 252, otherwise unused in UN) and a new formation. Austria 64, S.Africa 266, Switzerland 601, 602 & 615, Angola 289 & 290, Cambodia 224 and UN 302 all have Crew 3; Yugoslavia 525 has Crew 4. All others have Crew 2. Greece 701, Yugoslavia 526 and Bosnia 526 are Move Class 3, all others either ‘Default’ or 2. Australia 257, Canada 184, Austria 64, Switzerland 614 & 616, Angola 289, Cambodia 224 and Malaysia 385 have Survivability 1; UN 50 & 51 have Survivability 2. All others have 0. Comments about the UN units as above. Lift Capacities vary. 132 is the standard, but I certainly don’t have a problem with variations (That’s why I haven’t mentioned differences in speed). However, Croatia 526 & Switzerland 616 have Lift Capacity of 232 & 244 respectively. You may want to consider knocking them back to 132 & 144? Weights also vary. Again, not a problem to me, because there’s nothing outstandingly OTT. However, Italy 230, Ethiopia 308 and Somalia 548 have Weight 9, and IIRC there’s a convention about all vehicles being minimum 10. Class 27 – Medium Truck Again, how much standardisation? I’ve left the units just called ‘Truck’ or ‘Medium Truck’ alone, but where there is more than 1 unit with a specific name I’ve gone for it. So for example:- Uruguay 551 & Paraguay 571 are both a ‘Type 73’. The first has Size 3, the second 4. GaZ-66 – Yugoslavia 523 is Size 4, others Size 3. It is also Weight 12, others 10. Steyr – Uganda 40 has Speed 15, others 18. It also has Lift Capacity 117, others at least 118. Greece 700 has Weight 10, others 12. Bedford – Tanzania 40 has Crew 4, others 2. It also has Speed 15 (others 18) and Lift Capacity 115 (others 118). Sweden 550 is a 30-cwt – maybe a bit small for this class? Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
And finally for trucks and transport:
Class 26 – Utility Vehicle 2½ Ton Truck – Afghanistan 309 is Size 3, the standard for a Deuce and a Half is 4. Bedford – Sudan 310 and Kenya 311 have Speed 15, standard is 18. Both also have Lift Capacity 115, standard is 118. Bren Carrier – Egypt 226, UK 281, Netherlands 259, Denmark 225, Malaysia 51 & Uruguay 128 have Speed 18, others have 17. I believe 17 is correct. India 217 and Pakistan 67 have Load Cost 0, others 10. UK 281 and Denmark 225 have Lift Capacity 104, others 106. Bernardini AM-IV – Argentina 309 is Move Class 4, others 3. It’s a wheeled vehicle. Brazil 309 has Survivability 2, others 0. It also has Hull Armour 1/1/1, others have 2/2/2. BT-50 – Argentina 307 has Size 2, others 3. BTR-40 – Algeria 328 has Crew 3, others 2. Iraq 329 and Peru 307 have Survivability 3, others 4. Red 82 and UN 304 have Lift Capacity 106, Algeria 328 has 107, others have 108. 108 is correct. Civilian Car – Sweden 565 has Speed 14, others 20. EE-12 – Brazil 308 has Survivability 1, Angola 314 has 0. GaZ-69 – E.Germany 224 has Crew 3, Viet Cong 182 has Crew 4, all others 2. Red 79 & Poland 432 have Survivability 1, others 0. Viet Cong 182 has Lift Capacity 104, others 106. GaZ-3937 – Russia 241 has Survivability 4, Red 81 has 2, others 0. HMMWV – Poland 921, China 55 & Tanzania 316 have Crew 3, all others 2. USMC 71 is the only armoured HMMWV to have Survivability 0, others have 2. Yugoslavia 522 has FC 1 and Rangefinder 1, others 0. Iveco LMV – Norway 345 has Lift Capacity 104, others 109. Jeep – Switzerland 715 has Crew 1, Viet Cong 181 has 4, all others have 2. Belgium 251 has Speed 26, Argentina 306 has 25, Switzerland 715 has 20, all others 24. Canada 201 has Survivability 1, others 0. Viet Cong 181 has Lift Capacity 104, Somalia 312 has 108, all others 106. USMC 66, Belgium 251 & Spain 189 have Weight 9, all others 10. Land Rover – Cyprus 281 has Speed 28, all others 24. Switzerland 46 has Crew 1, others 2. Australia 254, Kenya 313 and Malaysia 52 have Survivability 1, all others 0. Somalia 313 has Lift Capacity 108, others 106. Light Truck – Size varies – up to oob 38 always 2, then mostly 3. Too much hassle to change. However:- Nigeria 310, Somalia 311 & Uganda 310 have Size 4 – surely too much? Somalia 311 has Crew 6, others 2. Nigeria 310 & Somalia 311 have Speed 18, others 20. Iraq 325, Green 307, Nigeria 310 & Portugal 592 have Lift Capacity 110, N.Korea 222 has 106, Somalia 311 has 108, all others have 112. N.Korea 222 has Weight 5, Cuba 310, Algeria 326, Nigeria 310, Kenya 310, Somalia 311 & Uganda 310 have 12, all others 10. Medium Truck – Libya 326, Albania 326 & S.Yemen 311 have Size 4, others 3. Gulf 311 is Move Class 3, all others 2. Mercedes-Benz – Norway 338, although m/g-armed, has RoF 0. Norway 341 & Denmark 240 have Speed 24, other MB 240/290 have 29. Puch Haflinger – Austria 67 has Crew 2, Switzerland 60 has 1. Sufa M-240 (Israel 342) is the only Size 1 vehicle. Type 95 – NVA 238 has Crew 2, Viet Cong 180 has 4. Indonesia 308 has Lift Capacity 6, others 108. All have Weight 5. UAZ-469 – E.Germany 712 & Mozambique 11 have Crew 1, others 2. E.Germany 712 also has Speed 26, others 24. E.Germany 712, Czech 432, Hungary 432, Red 80, Cuba 311, Slovakia 217, Albania 327, Nigeria 312, Eritrea 312, Ukraine 239, Tanzania 312 & Uganda 312 have Survivability 1, others 0. Unimog – Peru 310 has Lift Capacity 110, others 113. Xingo BT-25 – Brazil 306 has Speed 26, others 25. General – Hungary 431 & Green 618/619/620 have Survivability 1, similar others 0. (Not sure why Green has 3 all with the same stats, the only difference is the icon). Switzerland 865 has Weight 2. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
General plea while I think of it:-
Could you please get rid of the commas in the descriptions of M10 Achilles, they play havoc with csv dumps! Units affected are:- Egypt 321, Israel 478, UK 220, Iran 415, Belgium 390 & 391, Denmark 5, Libya 6 & 55 and Kenya 7. Thanks. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
The snipers - mercifully short!
Class 45 – Sniper China 259, N.Korea 214, Czech 345 & 346 and Cambodia 216 are the only units to have 60 Weapon 1 rounds, all others have 50. E.Germany 277 has 20 Weapon 2 rounds, all other solo snipers have 2. Class 143 – Para Sniper N.Korea 702 is the only unit to have 60 Weapon 1 rounds. 50 is standard, although a couple of heavy sniper teams have 40. USMC 329 is the only unit to have a third weapon. May well have been a feature of the period. Class 249 – Ranger Sniper W.Germany 453 is the only unit that can swim. It appears that their Heavy Snipers in other classes (45, 143) can also swim. Class 242 – Marine Sniper Conversely, USMC 269 is the only unit that can not swim. It is also the only Heavy Sniper unit in the class. Class 164 – Ski Sniper Finland 136 & 137 are the only units that can swim (Finland has plenty of other ski snipers that cannot). Class 147 – Commando Sniper All have FC 10 except for S.Africa 504 & 509, and Indonesia 530 & 531. Indonesia has similar units with FC 10, S.Africa does not. May be a nation issue with S.Africa and a ‘give the customer choice’ thing with Indonesia. The same units are the only ones not to have Rangefinder 10. The S.Africa units are also the only ones to have 8 Hand Grenades; all other units, whether Crew 1 or 2, have 2. Again, may be a nation thing. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Ships - Part 1
Class 239 – Hovercraft China 680 has Survivability 255, all others have 6. Italy 237 has Vision 20, all others have 0. Possible, but when even the USMC doesn’t have it? USA 186 is unarmed. Its USMC equivalent (also 186) has 2 m/g, as do Japan 290 & S.Korea 187. They do not appear to have different formational uses. USA 186 also has Crew 4, others have 8. Classes 43, 46, 198 & 199 – LCS, LCG, Torpedo Boat, Patrol Boat. Not worth going there, too much national variation. Class 197 – Rivercraft Generally as 198 & 199, but there are a couple of named craft here, which I presume are built to a formula, to whit the Zodiac and the Rigid Raider. It seems there were 2 basic marks of Rigid Raider, one with a capacity of 8 and the other with capacity of 20. Rigid Raider – Italy 250 has Size 1, all others 2. UK 251 & Australia 344 are the only 2 with armour. Other stats are pretty evenly split, so will leave alone. Zodiac – all have Swim Speed 6 except Netherlands 274, which has 7. Argentina 240 has Lift Capacity 110, others have either 13 or 113. Class 42 – Assault Boat (Always Unit 246) Netherlands is the only Size 2, others Size 1. USMC, Ethiopia & Somalia have Radio% 90, others 0. S.Africa has Load Cost 0, all others 1. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Ships - Part 2
Class 41 – Landing Barge Poland 752 has FC 100 (AA Radar), all others 0. This is not for an AA Gun, but for a weapon called ‘60mm OTO HVMS’, which is available here in 1/62. IIRC the main user of this weapon is Chile, which doesn’t have it until 1/84. That a Warpac nation would have it in 1/62 doesn’t stack up. Poland 700 and Iraq 250 are amphibious – should they be in an Amphibian class? Of those units (all in slot 247) called ‘Barge’:- Sweden has Crew 4, all others have 5; ARVN is the only armed version. LCM (8) Mk.1 – Belgium 235 has different stats from all the others. Israel 369 has Size 12, Netherlands 241 has 8, Greece 250 has 7, all others 9. The same units have Crew 5, all others 7. The same units have Swim Speeds 7-8, all others have 10. Israel 369 has Lift Capacity 248, Netherlands 241 has 250, Greece 250 has 234, Chile 253 has 240, others have 254. LCM Mk.6 – France 434 & Iran 184 have Size 12; USMC 191, Turkey 252 & Spain 231 Size 6, all others 9. Israel 368, France 434, USA 184, USMC 191, Turkey 252 and Spain 231 have Crew 4, others have 7. USMC 191 has Swim Speed 6, all others have 8. USA 184 has Lift Capacity 175, others have 180 or 240. France 434 has steel armour 5/3/3/6/4/4/0, HEAT armour 6/4/4/7/5/5/0, all others have 4/4/4/4/4/4/0, 6/6/6/6/6/6/0. LCVP – remarkably consistent, which leads me to believe that anomalies need pointing up. USA 254 has Size 12, all others 8. USA 254 has Crew 4, Netherlands 240 & W.Germany 355 have 5, all others 7. USA 254 has Lift Capacity 136, Netherlands 240 has 254, W.Germany 355 has 250, all others 236. LST – similar to LCVP. Russia 204 has Size 14, Ethiopia 251 has 12, UN 240 has 11, all others 10. Ethiopia 251 has Crew 8, all others 12. It also has Swim Speed 10, all others 8; Steel HF 6 (all others 4) and HEAT Top 4 (most others 3). UN 240 has HEAT Top 4, Peru 255 has 5 see above). T-4 – Syria 250 has Size 12, all others 10. It also has armour 2/2/2/2/2/2/0, no HEAT (others have 4/4/4/4/4/4/3, 6/6/6/6/6/6/5. Poland 184 & Syria 250 have Crew 4, others 8. They also have RoF 6, all others 9 (same Weapon 1). Libya 250 has Swim Speed 8, all others 6. Romania 184 & Bulgaria 184 have Lift Capacity 250, all others 230. Poland 184 has HEAT Top 3, others 5. I’m not going for any of the other named classes because there is so much variation in them, and I don’t have my reference works to hand. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Scouts and Observers (mostly to do with grenade loadouts not matching the squad size)
Class 243 – Marine Forward Observer USMC 221 have 12 hand grenades as weapon 2. After 1/60, they revert to 4 (2 each). Class 241 – Marine Scouts S.Korea 370/371/372 are the only ones who cannot swim. They are also the only units who have 80 weapon 1 rounds (others have 60, even with more crew). S.Korea 370 & 371 have 5 Weapon 3 rounds (Crew is 4). Poland 280/281/282/283 are some of the very few Scouts, particularly in specialist units such as Marines, who have Speed 6 – most have 7. Class 234 – Guerilla Scout Somalia 441 have 6 weapon 2 rounds, with 4 crew (others have 2 each). Class 229 – Para Observer W.Germany 378 & 379 are Size 1, even though Crew 2. France 630/631/632/633 have 9 (Weapon 2) Hand Grenades, between 2 Crew. Class 228 – COIN Scouts Rhodesia 220 is the only unit with Speed 6, all others have 7. Nicaragua 395 is the only unit that can swim. Other Nicaragua COIN Scouts cannot. Class 168 – Ski Scouts Norway 308/309/310/311 and Sweden 140/141/142/143 are the only units with Speed 6, others have 7. Sweden 143 has 8 (Weapon 3) hand grenades, with 5 Crew (others have 10). Class 101 – Paratroop Scouts ARVN 502, Belgium 563 & 564 have Speed 6. All others (apart from 8-man units) have 7. E.Germany 345 & 346 have 90 Weapon 1 rounds, Belgium 563 & 564 have 80, Romania 376 has 70 (Standard loadout for 3-4 man units is 60). N.Korea 450 & 451 have 60 Weapon 2 rounds (standard loadout for a sniper rifle is 50). Poland 390/391/392/393/394 have 4 Weapon 2 rounds (Hand Grenades for a 3-man team). Belgium 564 has 18 Weapon 2 HE rounds (standard loadout is 14). USA 100 has 7/1 Weapon 2 rounds (standard loadout is 14/2 for a 4-man unit). Sweden 157 has 80 Weapon 3 rounds (standard loadout is 50). Poland 393 & 394, and Romania 376 have 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds in 3-man teams. E.Germany 345 has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds in a 4-man team. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Scouts and Observers - 2
Class 88 – Commando Scouts Poland 289-294 have 4 crew, and 9 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds. NVA 270 has 9 crew, and 11 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds. ARVN 535 has 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) and 6 Weapon 3 rounds, with 4 crew. Chile 395-398 and El Salvador 395 & 396 have 30 Weapon 2 rounds, standard loadout for Sniper Rifle is 50. PLO 424 has 3 crew, and 5 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds. Class 82 – Patrol N.Korea 609-615 have Crew 3, but Size 1. USMC 400 is the only unit that can swim. Class 81 – Mechanised Scouts Czech 202 & 203 have 8 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with crew 6. Norway 207 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with crew 8. Class 80 – Partisan Scouts Poland 893 has 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and crew 4. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Scouts and Observers - 3
Class 63 – Artillery Observer Ecuador 400 has Size 9, Uruguay 400-404 have Size 1 (crews either 2 or 4). Somalia has no observer (and no observer formation) after 12/90. They have artillery until 12/93. Paraguay has no observers (?). UK 327 & 333 have Speed 4 (thought it might be the GSR, but Unit 340 has Speed 6). Denmark 383, 384 & 387 have Speed 5, other Danish (and most others, even with similar EW/Vision etc) have 6. Norway 210-213 & 228, Denmark 385 & 386 have 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with 2 crew. France 594-597 have 9 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with 2 crew. Class 58 – Scouts Jordan 550-553 have Speed 6, all others have 7. Argentina 388 have 4 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with 3 crew. Kenya 450, 451, 453-455, 457-459 have 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) round, with 4 crew. Czech 339 & 340, and Ethiopia 400 have 8 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 3 crew. Pakistan 259-266 have 10 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 crew. Romania 289 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 3 crew. Australia 377 has 9 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 crew. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
SAMs
Class 16 – Area SAM Amoun – Egypt 297 has Size 6, Crew 3, Gulf 269 has 4/4. They should maybe be similar to the Aspide (3 & 4). Aster 30 – France 448 has different stats from the others, and should probably be renamed ‘Aster 15’. HQ-2 – Thailand 285 has Weight 10, others have 15. I-Hawk – Jordan 331 has Crew 6, Sweden 379-381 have 5, others have 3. Nike Hercules – Norway 39 has Crew 10, others have 3. It also has RoF 3 (others have 1) and 3 missiles (others have 2). Patriot – Saudi 268 has Crew 3, others have 2. W.Germany 185 has 3 missiles, others have 4. Rapier – Switzerland 231, 908 & 909 have Size 3, others have 2. They also have Crew 10, others have 5. Iran 501, Australia 328 & 329 have Weight 10, others have 5. Roland – Argentina 571 & 572 have Survivability 3, others have 0. They also have 4 missiles (others have 10). SA-2 – Egypt 294 has Size 6, others have 2. AFAIK the Tayir es-Sabah is just a reverse-engineered version. Egypt 294 has Weight 15, N.Korea 580 has 100, all others have 10. Egypt 294 & Bulgaria 44 have RoF 2, others have 1. Egypt 294 & Somalia 570 have 2 missiles, others have 1. SA-3 Goa (Neva) – N.Korea 581 has Weight 100, others have 15. Czech 48 has 2 missiles, others have 4. SA-5 Gammon – Poland 76 has Size 2, others have 5. SA-10 (S-300) – Iran 503, China 586, Czech 95, Yugoslavia 449, Red 272, Cyprus 111, Slovakia 121 & Ukraine 296 have Crew 10, all others 8. The same units have Survivability 0, others have 6. Czech 95 has Speed 21, all others 20. Skyguard Aspide – Spain 165 is armoured, others are not. Tigercat – India 235 has Weight 10, others have 5. Class 29 – Infantry SAM Belgium 45 & 460 – do these belong here, or rather in one of the MG classes (176 & 193 are not used by Belgium). Denmark 79 & 80, Cyprus 116, Finland 204-208 and Bulgaria 83-86 all have Crew 2, and Size 1. All other 2-crew units have Size 0. PLO 145 & 146, Chile 466 & 467, Finland 207 and Bulgaria 83 & 84 have Load Cost 1. All other 2-crew units have Load Cost 0. Ukraine 409-413 have Crew 1. May be a national thing, but all similar units have minimum Crew 2. Blowpipe – UK 438, Canada 209 & 211 have Crew 3, all others have 2. However, they also carry 5 missiles as opposed to the others’ 4, so may be a national thing. Javelin teams (UK 439, Canada 210) are similar. If they are changed, Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds would also require changing. Portugal 360 has Speed 4, all others have 6. Canada 209 & 211 have RoF 4, all others have 3. Gimlet – Bulgaria 86 has 3 Weapon 1 rounds, all others have 4. HN-5 – Iran 212 has Crew 3, others have 2. Igla – Jordan 390 & S.Korea 567 have RoF 3, Gulf 182 & 183 have 4, others have 6. Mistral – S.Korea 568, Spain 456, Green 111 & Brazil 111 have Speed 6, others have 4. Italy 464 has RoF 4, others have 3. France 550 & Belgium 46 carry 3 missiles, others have 4. RBS-70 – Finland 207 has Crew 2, all others have 4. Iran 214 & Green 110 have 6 Weapon 1 rounds, all others have 4. Redeye – Turkey 237 & Iran 210 have Crew 3, others have 2. USMC 79 has RoF 4, others 3. SA-7 Grail (Strela 2) – Iran 211, Iraq 385, Cuba 110, Cambodia 295, Chad 155 & Uruguay 80 have Crew 3, others have 2. Gulf 180 has RoF 4, others have 6. Iraq 385, Uruguay 80 and Bulgaria 83 & 84 carry 3 missiles, others have 4. SA-14 Gremlin (Strela 3) – Iraq 386, Yugoslavia 435, Bosnia 434 & Croatia 435 have Crew 3, others have 2. Gulf 181 has RoF 4, Jordan 389 has 3, others have 6. Iraq 386 & Bulgaria 85 have 3 missiles, others have 4. Starstreak – As with Blowpipe, UK 440 & 441 have Crew 3, S.Africa 128 & Malaysia 109 have 2. However, this time there is no difference in the missile load. Stinger – Turkey 238 & 239, and Greece 274 have RoF 3, Angola 118 has 6, others have 4. Class 30 – SP SAM AMX-30 Roland – Jordan 337 has Speed 21, all others 23. Spain 150 & 151 have Survivability 3, all others 4. Iraq 379 has Load Cost 22, Spain 150 & 151 have 23, all others 32. France 466 has Vision 0, even though it’s the most modern version. Anza Car – Pakistan 222 has Size 2, Malaysia 113 has Size 4. Avenger HMMWV – Taiwan 52 has Crew 4, others have 2 or 3. Cactus – S.Africa 583 has Weight 10, Chile 455 & Green 555 have 0. Crotale – France 58 & Chad 570 have Survivability 2, others have 4. Egypt 232, France 58, Gulf 260, Libya 557, Chad 570 and Saudi Arabia 261 & 262 have Weight 0. Crotale NG – France 559 has Swim Speed 2, Chad 571 has 4. HN-5 Truck – China 515 has Swim Speed 0, Pakistan 220 has 4. 0 looks more appropriate. China has Survivability 3, Pakistan 0. China has EW 0, Pakistan 1. M48 Chaparral – Egypt 233, Afghanistan 506 & Ecuador 440 have Speed 18, all others have 20. Survivability is mixed. A slight majority have 4, but Egypt 233 and Afghanistan 506 have 5, USA 207 & Portugal 50 have 3. Israel 100 & 101 have Steel TS armour 1, others have 2. Egypt 233 has Steel Top armour 0, others have 1. SA-4 Ganef (Krug) – E.Germany 49 has no armour, others have 1/1/1/1/1/1/1. Russia 292 & 924 have Speed 16, others 6. They also have Weight 45 & 99 respectively, all others 28. SA-6 Gainful (Kub) – Cuba 238 has Size 2, all others 4. Egypt 280, Bulgaria 47 & Tanzania 211 have Speed 6, all others 16. Czech 44 has Crew 3, others 10. Cuba 238 has Load Cost 0, Poland 50 & 563 and Czech 44 have 20, Russia 283 & 613 have 99, all others 15. Hungary 50 has RoF 9, all others 3. SA-8 Gecko (Osa) – Greece 77, Cuba 237, Bosnia 454, Croatia 455 and Chad 569 have Speed/Swim Speed 15/1, all others have 27/3. Jordan 335 has Survivability 3, Angola 212 has 4, all others have 5. Strela 1 – E.Germany 46, Romania 45, Libya 555, Yugoslavia 454 & S.Africa 585 have Speed 36, Czech 45 has 33, others have 32. S.Africa 585 also has Swim Speed 4, Czech 45 has 3, others 2. SA-11 Gadfly (Buk) – Yugoslavia 455 has Crew 4, all others 10. Yugoslavia 455, Red 527 & Ukraine 289 have Speed 6, Finland 561 has 16, Russia 289 & 612 have 18. Some authorities give 50 kph, others 65. The Russian units have Survivability 3, the others 0. Load Cost is 99 for the Russians, 22 for Yugoslavia, 15 for the rest. Strela 10 – Russia 428, E.Germany 45, Czech 46, Libya 556 & Yugoslavia 456 have Speed 22, others 20. The last 4 also have Survivability 3, others 4. Tor M1 – Iran 506 has Armour 2/2/1/3/1/1/1, others have 3/2/1/3/2/1/1. Yugoslavia 457 has Speed 20, others 22. It also has Survivability 3 (others 4), Load Cost 24 (others 20), and Armour 2/1/1/2/1/1/1 (see above). Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
Quote:
In all other countries including Russia they should be replaced with something else, for example Ya-12 tractor (in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia spelled Ja-12) - http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/17698, especially, that data don't fit to Komsomolets. We even have a picture of Ya-12 - 29395. Data could be similar, but speed was up to 38 km/h (12-13) Hungary and Czechoslovakia used also several types of ex-German SdKfz tractors. Quote:
Michal |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
Quote:
By the way, speed of PTS-M was only 42 km/h and 10 km/h on water - in the game it is faster. Capacity 10 ton on water, on land - half. Regards, Michal |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
I have noted this down but given the volume of reports it will be well after Christmas before I get to this but for now please note the UNIT CLASS of the unit involved and consider what that UNIT CLASS main purpose is and that applying carry capacity to units that can be used as personal carriers AND gun towing vehicles requires that the carry capacity's be occasionally different. That is a game reality and when it conflicts with actual reality game reality takes precident. Also note the carry capacity for this vehicle in the Russian OOB and that will likely be what the carry capacity of any other unit of this type is changed to. Also note that for Egypt the Russian carry capacity is what the APC version is already set to ( and what I find when I check sources ) and changing it to the same for the Artillery Prime Mover class may render it useless in that role........ right now IDK if that is the case or not but I will when I get to it but what I do know at this time I have no intention of tearing apart the carry capacity's and carry costs for artillery to make it work with APC's when for 99.9% of players the existing, albeit somewhat flawed system, works just fine and it is unimportant that there may exist slightly different capacitys from one unitclass or one OOB to another Don |
Re: Anomaly reports
If I understand your concerns correctly, there's no problem in this case, because all BTR-50s should have increased capacity, to 120, not lowered (source: Russian books Bronekollektsya 4/2000 on the Soviet armour and Bronekollektsya special issue 1(5)/2004 on PT-76 family).
Sorry to bother you. Regards, Michal |
Re: Anomaly reports
I went though all of this three years ago with the Russians from SP Russia who produced an almost endless list of corrections for the Russian OOB . The APC BTR-50's are already 120 BUT....BRT-50PK's that have overhead armor cover and are 114. It's on the list to check the carry capacity of other nations BTR-50's this release and any that deviate from the Russian OOB norm will be corrected.
Don |
Re: Anomaly reports
The quoted sources explicitly say, that BTR-50PK carried 20 soldiers as well -that's why I wrote about "BTR-50" in general.
Regards Michal |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
And as Don pointed out, we already had a conversation with Russian gamers who were insistent that the closed top versions (to include the BTR-60s etc) had a lower troop capacity. AFAIR, the roof and arrangements for hatches reduced the capacity of the open top version (which had simple charabanc type cross-benches) And as for sources - despite most web sites saying "20", I'll stick with David Isby's "Weapons and tactics of the Soviet Army" where it is stated that passengers are 12 (18-20 in open-topped versions). That tends to agree near enough to the Russian guys who we dealt with 5 or more years back. 14 is near enough to 12 for game purposes. Cheers Andy |
Re: Anomaly reports
Well, I don't know myself, I'm only basing at what Mikhail Baryatynski wrote (quite a known expert on Soviet armour). It's very probable, that capacity was 20, while the gamers may refer to actual number of soldiers carried, which depended on organization (it was sure more comfortable for less soldiers). For example, in the Czechoslovak Army, a modified OT-62 carried crew of 2 and 14 soldiers (two sections) plus platoon's commander (sketches at http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/53321 )
You've made me to search an original Soviet military manual of BTR-50, which I've just downloaded, and which says on p.4: "each APC of both variants enables carrying or ferrying [ie. on water] of 20 troops with full combat equipment or 2000 kg of different loads". In a troop compartment there were two 4-seat benches along sides, upon tracks and three longitudinal removable benches along the compartment. It is BTW interesting, that BTR-50P could carry a 57-85 gun or 107 mm RG or 3 mortars or GAZ-69 jeep atop. Hope this info helps. PS. BTR-60 indeed had capacity reduced from 14 (P) to 12 (PA) and only 8 in PB - it might need changes as well (possibly 9, if we include commander sitting next to driver). Regards Michal |
Re: Anomaly reports
Not going to get involved with this one, if only because my reference books are currently a couple of thousand miles away, and I'd have to rely on the Net. However, I must agree with Don that the original unit that started this discussion off has a primary function as a Prime Mover - the fact that it can carry anything else is a bonus.
In the meantime, I'll just keep them coming . . . Class 31 – Off-Map Rockets Russia 275 has Speed 25 – I suspect it’s a typo. Similarly, Switzerland 957 has Swim Speed 2. 34 units have armour. IIRC this is not required for off-map units; what I don’t know is whether or not it may affect counter-battery fire. They are:- Egypt 563; Syria 569, 570, 573; Israel 252; China 554, 565, 742 & 743; Gulf 472 & 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; S.Korea 549 & 550; Pakistan 278 & 279; Czech 162; Argentina 585; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172 & 173; Saudi 470; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Ecuador 187 & 188. Similarly, the following units have a Survivability rating:- Egypt 562 & 563; Poland 162, 165, 298, 299; Syria 567, 569, 570, 573; Israel 252 & 257; PLO 296 & 297; Russia 275; China 554, 742 & 743; Gulf 470, 472, 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; N.Korea 519; Pakistan 278 & 279; Turkey 919; Romania 166-168; Argentina 586 & 587; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172, 173; Slovakia 144; Switzerland 957; Cambodia 518 & 519; Saudi 470; Lebanon 587; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Eritrea 580; Ukraine 263 & 264; Ecuador 187 & 188; Nicaragua 185 & 186; Somalia 580. If this is purely cosmetic, it’s probably too much of a PITA, because I’m sure you have more important concerns. Many of the above (and others) also have a Weight rating, but unless this affects the game, I’m not going to bother. Crew numbers may not affect off-map weapons (can’t remember) and if this is the case, non-bold parts of this section can be ignored. Arash Platoon – Iran 492 has Crew 24, others 18. BM-14 Platoon – Cambodia 518 has this title, even though its weapons are 240mm rockets, not 140mm. AFAIK Cambodia never had the BM-24 (240mm), so it’s probably the weapon that should be changed/added. BM-21 Platoon – Russia 260 & 266 have Crew 20, Bulgaria 165 has 24, Poland 165 & Hungary 165 have 12, India 530 has 6, others have 18. Bosnia 333 has weapons loadout of 40 x 3 and RoF 20, all others have 80 x 3 and 40. BM-24 Platoon – Iran 490 & Russia 262 have Crew 24, Poland 168 has 16, others have 18. BM-27 Platoon – Crew standard 18, Russia 261 & N.Yemen 464 have 24, Ecuador 186 has 15. BM-30 Platoon – Russia 259 has Crew 32, Algeria 172 has 24, Ukraine 264 has 18, Ecuador 188 has 12. CM versions (Russia 263, Algeria 173, Ukraine 263) have similar numbers, although 1 weapon less. LAR – Israel 250 & 251 and Argentina 585 have weapon loadouts of 52 x 3, and RoF 36. Suspect loadout should be 72 x 3. Argentina 585 has Crew 27, others have 6. LAROM-122 – Romania 168 retains the RoF = 13 of other LAROMs, but has 80 rounds per weapon. M270 Section – Spain 93 has Crew 12, Turkey 142 has 16, UK 159 & Greece 101 have 18, Finland 557 has 24; all others have 9. RM-70 Platoon – Angola 585 & Uruguay 118 have Crew 6, Finland 556 has 24, others have 18. Sakr-30 Section – Egypt 566 has Crew 18, others have 6. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 137 – SP Rocket Launchers
Taiwan 510 has Lift Capacity 130, Iraq 553 has 108. No other unit has a Lift Capacity. Taiwan 510 has Load Cost 100. All others can be loaded onto transport. BM-13 – Yugoslavia 322 has Crew 24, others have 6. It is also Move Class 2, others are either 0 or 3. Bulgaria 160 has Size 6, others have 4, PLO 280, Chad 175, Sudan 460 & N.Yemen 460 have Speed 15, others have 13. Russia 256 has Survivability 2, others have 0. Yugoslavia 322 has Load Cost 14, Red 91 has 20, others have 12. Libya 580 has 127mm rockets, all others have 132mm. The oob has an unused Weapon 204, which would fit. BM-14 – Russia 254 has Size 4, others have 5. It also has Survivability 2, others have 0. Iraq 551 has Crew 6, others have 7. Russia 254 has Speed 20, E.Germany 166 has 0, others have 15. Weights:- Russia 254 is 10, Iraq 551 & E.Germany 166 12, Hungary 167 is 14, and Poland 167 is 15. BM-21 – Mozambique 225, Tanzania 585 & Uganda 582 have Size 6, Finland 550 has 4, others have 5. Egypt 564, Russia 255 & 257 and Bulgaria 161 have Crew 5, Red 92 & Chechnya 97 have 4, Poland 160 & Hungary 169 have 12, others have 6. Green 180, Chad 176, Ethiopia 582, Ecuador 180, El Salvador 180, Nicaragua 180, Peru 180 & Tanzania 585 have Speed 15, Sudan 461 & N.Yemen 461 have 8, others have 25. Ukraine 255 has Survivability 3, Egypt 564 & Russia 255 & 257 have 2, Syria 557, Israel 253, PLO 282, Mujahadeen 496, Chad 176, Sudan 461, N.Yemen 461, Eritrea 585, El Salvador 180, Somalia 585 & Tanzania 585 have 1, others (still the majority) have 0. Chechnya 97 & Ukraine 255 are the only armoured units of the type. Poland 160, Russia 255 & 257, E.Germany 169, Hungary 169, Peru 180 & Bulgaria 161 have Weight 15, Red 92 & Chechnya 97 have 24, others have 19. BM-24 – Iran 483 & Algeria 175 have similar stats, as do Egypt 576 & N.Korea 508. But the 2 sets are different. LAR-160 – Green 181 has Size 4, others have 6. Israel 255 & Green 181 have weapon loadouts of 13 x 2, and RoF 18. M-51 130mm – Poland 163 has Speed 21, others have 15. Poland 163 & Austria 165 have Survivability 2, others have 0. RM-70 – Indonesia 187 has Speed 25, Greece 105 & Zimbabwe 226 have 18, others have 15. Finland 551 has Crew 8 & Size 6, others have 6 & 5. May be a different chassis though. Poland 295 & 296 have Weight 18, Finland 551 has 25, others have 20. Greece 105 has no top armour, others have 1. Libya 581 has weapon loadout of 6 x 2, RoF 12. S.Africa 320 & 321 have Crew 18 – seems a bit excessive. Switzerland 956 has no Weapon 3 ammo. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 151 – Rocket Launcher
Egypt 561 & 574 have all the characteristics of vehicles (Name, Move Class, Speed, Size, Weight). I suspect they should be Class 137, with a .lbm change. BM-12 – Russia 523 & Ukraine 254 have different stats from Mujahadeen 491 & Afghan 491. They also have 122mm rockets. According to www.armyrecognition.com, www.strategypage.com etc, this is a 107mm weapon. BM-14-16 – Red 486 has Speed 1, others have 0. Grad-P 122mm – Egypt 560 is called a ‘Platoon’, but has the same weapons loadout as Egypt 571. Should it maybe have loadout increased, and be transferred to Class 31? PLO 279, Mujahadeen 489 & NVA 372 have Crew 5, others have 6. The same 3 units have Speed 3, Chad 180, Sudan 454, Lebanon 575 & N.Yemen 454 have 2, others have 6. Red 485 has 2 rockets, but Weight 1. Other 2-rocket units have Weight 0. The Chad, Sudan and Lebanon units have 6 rockets, but Weight 0. Other 6-rocket units have Weight 1. Haseb – Iran 480 has weapon loadout of 6 x 2 and RoF 6, PLO 278 & Lebanon 578 have double these. Local modification? RPU-14 – Russia 522 has Size 1, others have 0. Russia 522 has Crew 5, Indonesia 185 has 3, others have 6. The same 2 units have Speed 1, others have 0. Weights are:- Poland 166 has 5, Russia 522 has 1, Hungary 166 has 0, Indonesia 185 has 19. Type 63 – Libya 575, S.Africa 317, Albania 500 & Zimbabwe 208 have Size 2, others have 1. They also have Survivability 3, others have 0. The same 4 units have Crew 4, Syria 552 & NVA 370 have 5, others have 6. Syria 552, NVA 370 & Sudan 456 have Speed 0, others have 1. Syria 552 & NVA 370 have Weight 3, others have 2. S.Africa 317 bothers me. If the S.African regulars had wanted a towed MRL, wouldn’t they have stuck with the Valkiri-5? Buying Chinese just doesn’t feel right. The alternative is that these came in from Zimbabwe for the ‘liberation’ struggle, in which case I wonder whether they’d be better off in Class 236? In which case, of course, we’d need guerilla infantry as well . . . . Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 210 – Off-Map Minelets. As with Class 31, much of this is probably cosmetic.
Russia 264 is the only armoured unit. Syria 571 has Survivability 2, Iraq 565 has 3, all others have 0. Syria 571, Russia 264, China 568, Taiwan 530, Netherlands 142, Spain 97, Italy 149 & 151 have a Load Cost. Japan 240 & Finland 554 have RoF 6, all others have 1. Weapon loadouts are similar throughout the class. BM-27 – Ukraine 265 has Crew 12, others have 18. MLRS – Favourite Crew number is 9, but France 563 & UK 160 have 40, Finland 554 & Sweden 473 have 24. Class 236 – Guerilla Rocket Launcher Iraq 985 is called ‘105mm MRL’, although it has 107mm rockets. Syria 551 has Crew 5 & Speed 3, other Grad-Ps have 6 & 6. Syria 551 & Chechnya 125 have Load Cost 0, others have 1. |
Re: Anomaly reports
Class 111 – Rangers
Poland 255-259 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, with Crew 9. ARVN 52 have 14 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and Crew 9. Pakistan 508-512 have 24 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and Crew 10. Greece 327 has 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and Crew 12. Nigeria 483 have Speed 1, all others have 6 or 7. Finland 474 have 5 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 crew. Class 246 – Ranger Light Infantry Italy 335 is the only unit with Speed 7. Even other Lagunari are 6. Class 247 – Ranger Heavy Infantry Turkey 317-319 – I wonder whether these would be better as Class 114 (which Turkey doesn’t have at the moment), and perhaps then keep Formation 237 for the LMG, and 238/239 for the AT/ATGM. If you do take that route, relevant sub-formations would also need to be added to Formations 233 & 234. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
OOB #13 (USMC)
For some reason Unit #284 Predator Team and Unit #288 Predator Team are both 3-man teams, they should be two. As a guess I'd say this was done because if it is a two-man team then the cost calculator makes it cost less then Unit #413 SMAW Team (which is two-man) even tho the Predator is superior anti-tank weapon to the SMAW (in both real life and game terms). |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
First of all, Apilas: The troops that want to be as mobile as possible do not carry such a big and cumbersome weapon. Also, they would not engage in direct combat with MBTs. More so, I'd guess they prefer LAW for engaging APCs and satchel charges / AT/AP mines. Second, I think that 4 crew is way too small, but perhaps justified with the dispersive tactics. They're for reconnaissance and sabotage and I understand that they'll prefer to stay out of firefights whenever possible. The wikipedia article is quite a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_%...ht_infantry%29 |
Re: Anomaly reports
@ Suhiir - haven't got to that class yet (I don't think!). But my main concern this time around is whether or not all Predator teams agree with each other. Whether or not they agree with RL is not (yet) something I'm addressing. But I shall :)
@ dmnt - the Finnish oob has been the subject of so much faffing around, corrections from one Finn to another etc etc, that I'm not sure it knows where it is. But as I've just said, how the game stats stack up to RL is not my concern this time around - Don & Andy know how the game works far better than we do, and if we're going to mess with stats outside the given parameters, then we'd better have 1) some sourced evidence and 2) some considerable playtesting to make sure the new ideas work. There are lots of areas where I don't necessarily agree with them, but I'm not going to publish anything unless I'm damn sure I can back it up. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
|
Re: Anomaly reports
2 Attachment(s)
@ Suhiir - not a problem. i've put it on my "to do" list (P.196 :D)
@ Andy - even without my written sources, I'm entering the joust here. First, I haven't seen a single web source (and yes, I read Russian, albeit slowly!) that suggests that the PK version accommodated anything less than 20 pax. Secondly, I've attached a photo of the hatches on a PK - if one thinks about this logically, what can adding armour do to reduce troop capacity? Answer - not a lot. I've also attached (and I know this is iffy, but I Googled it in cyrillic characters, so presumably it's authentic) a photo of a modelled interior of a PK. Now, if the bank of 4 seats on the left take 2 bums each, far right takes 3 and near right takes 4, you end up with 15 - which agrees with nobody! However, if the bank of 4 takes 3 bums each, plus 4 plus 5, you're pretty close to 20 (plus 1 guy saying 'spasibo Tovarishch' for the extra room). However, the seating layout is nowhere near what Michal suggests. I await a proper shot of the interior of a PK. My 2 cents worth. Richard H |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
Regards, Michal |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...tr-50-pics.htm It's fairly packed, and the guys are in parade dress - so no field packs and stuff etc. But I can only make perhaps 12 (3 rows of 4) or maybe 14 in back on trying to count noses in these lo-res shots. So, I really doubt 20 in the early open top, myself - unless some were supposed to hide in the engine bay ? They were used in the early 2-vehicle platoon as half-platoon carriers though, but not for very long apparently. "20" was probably a theoretical number (and 3 rows of seats does not divide easily into 20) - unless they were jam-packed in like sardines with one row of 6 in between 2 of seven?. So - the BTR 50 carry capacity can remain as we have ATM. Andy |
Re: Anomaly reports
You'll do what you wish. I only say, that the official manual clearly states, that BTR-50P/PK is fit to transport 20 armed soldiers. It's obvious, that in normal service it carried actually less, depending on organization, and for all 20 it sure wouldn't be comfortable. I can't imagine travelling long on benches without backrests even for half of that... 14 + commander travelled normally in the Czechoslovak army. Note, that photos show parade configuration, with standing soldiers (or seating on some higher transversal benches), and they are meant to represent only its section, not full capacity. Five longitudinal benches were a fact - if four soldiers sat on each, it makes 20 (or 3+5+5+4+3).
I can't see a reason, why don't we change a capacity of this APC to real guaranteed one, even, if only 12 or so troops will be normally packed into it. But, as I've said, you do what you wish. Regards. Michal |
Re: Anomaly reports
Quote:
If a vehicle is amphibious (or an aircraft/helo for that matter) adding armor can decrease the potential cargo load thus troop carrying capacity. My irrelevant to the discussion 2 cents :D As Mobhack pointed out, the manufacturer often base troop carry capacity on troops no field gear, thus the "real" carry capacity is often less. |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:03 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.