Pointy Sticks MA started
 

Hi there,

this game is meant for players of all skill levels.
Diplomacy is machiavellian in regards to NAPs, but trade/province swap agreements must be honoured and "misssend" items/gems/etc. sent back.

Banned are the usual things, copying Bogus orders, excessive Scout blocking, filling other peoples Lab with crap.

Age: MA
Settings: HOF 15, renaming on
All other settings normal
Time: 24hours, 48 later on.
Mods: CBM 1.92, Black Rose 0.28b

Nations:

1.Mightypeon: Black Rose of Ulm
2.Gurthang: Caelum
3.Ghoul 31: Acrosephale
4.Dogged57: Tien Chi
5.Shatner: Pythium
6.Tratorix: Ctis
7.Ossa: Mictlan
8.Shadrach: Vanheim
9: Brodie SWR: Shinuyama

I would love to play with squirreloids "Black Rose" Mod

The MC compatible version can be gained from here:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/...topic=317&st=0
Please rename the black rose ulm.dm file to
Black_Rose_Ulm_MC.dm after downloading it.

together with CBM 1.92, and if nobody cries "noooo evil! Imba" I would play that very nation.
With a total of 4 games under my belt, I see myself as a Noob/intermediate who roughly knows what he is doing.

We are looking at around 8-10 players, and will aim for a map with roughly 15-20 provinces per player.



Cheers,

Mightypeon

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I would like to play Caelum.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Welcome aboard!

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

arco

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I'll throw down with T'ien Ch'i, if you'll have me. I've played a few MP games but I'm still learning.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Sure, I'll join in as Pythium. I am also curious how well Black Rose Ulm fares in MP; I've only ever tried them against the AI.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Wellcome ghoul31, Dogged 57 and shatner!

Roster so far:

Mightypeon: Black Rose of Ulm
Gurthan: Caelum
Ghoul 31: Acro
Dogged57: Tien Chi
Shatner: Pythium

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I'll take C'tis.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I might want to be in on this game, lemme think about it for a day or so and I'll get back to you with a nation. How would you feel about another modded nation in it? Save me a spot before you start but if I take too long, just forget about it :)

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

*needs another game*

I'd like to join with Mictlan. It would be my first time with them.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Another mod nation is ok as long as:
1: it is in the mod compatibility project
2: Nobody has an issue with it

Otherwise, greetings and welcome aboard tratorix, Jiggymike and Ossa.
Roster:

Mightypeon: Black Rose of Ulm
Gurthan: Caelum
Ghoul 31: Acro
Dogged57: Tien Chi
Shatner: Pythium
Tratorix: Ctis
Jiggymike: Do be determined
Ossa: Mictlan

We are now at 8 players, I am looking at perhaps 2 more.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Hey I'm actually going to pass for now. Don't have the time for another game and was hoping to do one with some different mods. Hopefully you'll still join mine when I start it :)

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I'd be interested in trying Atlantis, if you don't mind a water nation. If you want this to be a land-lubber-only affair, I'll pick a land nation, maybe Agartha.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I would not mind a Water nation. With one water nation, Rusty Nails seems like a nice wrap around map.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I'd like to play as Shangri-La.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Can you provide a link to this Shangri-La mod nation's development thread. If you end up playing as them, I'd like know a little something about them before fighting, allying or trading with them.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/...p?showtopic=27

Here you go.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Wow! I haven't given the troops much scrutiny but those commanders are nuts! It looks like someone took EA T'ien Ch'i (but with better heroes, which is saying something because T'ien Ch'i has really good heroes), combined them with MA Bandar Log and then gave everything cold resistance/immunity. Also, they get an extra 80 design points from preferring cold-2.

They have a lot of really good mages, the majority of which are sacred. Their top-of-the-line cap-only mage (the Hidden Master) has the following stats:

400 gold for
A2E2S2H3 + 1.1 FESA
Flying
Stealthy
ColdRes 75
NeedNotEat
Map Move 3
Max Age 200
Can throw lightning

The closest MA mage of comparable power is Pythium's Arch Theurge:
380 gold for
A2W1S3H3 + 1.1 FAWS
Really, really old
Map Move 1

That and their 3 recruit-anywhere Lama mage-priests are comparable to many MA nation's cap-only mages. I could see this nation working, maybe, in the Early Age but this seems pretty jarring here in MA. Feel free to point out how wrong I am, but my first reaction is to call this nation over-powered.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

More mage analysis. All mages are recruit-anywhere unless specified otherwise. All told, Shangri-la can recruit a maximum of the following in all paths WITHOUT relying on a lucky 10% path for their mages:
Air 3
Earth 3
Water 2
Fire 1
Death 2
Nature 2
Astral 3
Blood 2

None of their mages suffer from old age. Everyone has Cold Resistance 50 or 100. Everyone has Mountain Survival and map-move 2 or 3. They have 3 stealthy mage-priests, including a recruit-anywhere mage-priest-spy. Of their 8 mages, 6 are sacred and have holy 1 or better. They have stealthy troops, stealthy leaders, a healer and are capable of casting the site-search spells for all paths except fire (they max out at F1 casters and none of them have D1 so they can't forge the cheap fire booster). All of their casters except for one capital-only can join a communion via astral or blood magic.

And I haven't bothered to look at their soldiers or their summons yet.

Again, I say wow!


Red-hat Lama
290 gold
A1E2S2H2 + 1.1 FAES
Stealthy
Mountain Survival
Map Move 3
ColdRes 50

Yellow-Hat Lama
220 gold
A1E1S1H2 + 1.1 AES
Mountain Survival
Map Move 3
ColdRes 50
okleader

Black-Hat Lama
280 gold
A1S2D1H2 + 1.2 AESD
Mountain Survival
Map Move 3
ColdRes 50
FortuneTeller 10

Wise One (capital only)
240 gold
20hp, 15str, Ape chasis
W1E1N1 + .5 ENW
Mountain Survival
ColdRes 100
Healer 30
Cold Power 1

Ragyapa Priests
160 gold
D1H1 + .5 AD
Mountain Survival
ColdRes 50

Ngagspa Sorcerer
180 gold
E1D1B1 + 1 AEDB
Research Bonus -3 (research penalty)
Mountain Survival
ColdRes 50

Shangrilan Monk
100 gold
S1H1 + .1 AEFS
Mountain Survival
ColdRes 50
Stealthy
Spy

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Shinuyama for me, if there is room!

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I would prefer Shinuyama over Shangi La to be honest.

However, I should perhaps explain what Black Rose Ulm gets compared to normal MA Ulm:
-All of Black Rose Ulms troops have 14-15 MR. They are costed around 15 gold, compared to 11 gold for normal MA Ulm troops.
-Black Rose Ulm gets troop summons, either 9 earth gems for 9 Guardian like Warriors at construction 3, 15 Fire gems for 5 Heavily Armoured Morale 30 guys with Flambeaus at enchantment 5 or 6, or 15 astral gems for 5 guys with "Elf bane Mauls" and Ethereal at Alteration 6.
-Black Rose Ulm can summon various Generals. These are mediocre Thugs -> good light SCs. They also autocast battle field wide buffs (Relief, Will of the Fates, Blessing of Gaia, Solar Brilliance and growing fury) in the beginning of a battle. Solar brilliance and growing fury can harm Ulm more than they aid it, the other 3 are highly usefull though.
-One of those commanders is actually a quite powerfull mage who gets Ulm into guaranteed Death and perhaps Nature or Blood. At 35 Hammers he is rather pricy to blood hunt with though.
-Ulm gets battle field magic to cast Legions of Steel on everbody, pimp everybodys magic resistance and, fairly high up, destroy the enemies non magic armour.

-Compared to normal MA Ulm, they do not have the "forge of Ulm", they have worse randoms on Mage Smiths (10% instead of 20%) and they dont have the low level priest extra priest spells. I also think that Black Rose Ulms Black priests are not drain immune.

Nevertheless, Black Rose is significantly stronger than Normal MA Ulm.

I took a look at Shangri la, and I honestly cant see a weakness.
They have composite Bows with Map move 2, Heavy infantry almost up to Ulmish levels, but with Map move 2, cheap stealthy and good (defense 15) raiders with map move 2 and mages to die for.
Their Sacred units are nothing particularly special, but other than that...
They get sacred 1A2S1D +110 AESD (so, Lighting Bolt/communion thunder strikes or nether bolts or more nether bolts), sacred 1A2E2S +110AESF (Blade wind, gift from heaven spamm), and those are the recruit anywhere guys.
All of them are sacred.
Hidden Masters can get A4 by themselfs with some luck, and otherwise, well sacred A2E2S2 is actually quite damned scary. Especially on a STEALTHY FLYER!!!
I think the nation has enough Strength for 3 different (EA, MA, LA) incarnations mixed in 1.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Yeah, but all Shangri-La's mages are around 250 gold (Cap only hidden masters are 400 gold each!)They better be damn good at those prices. Crazy good diversity though. Two of their recruit anywhere lama ones have old age as well. I mean, they're good, but there are a lot of ways to kill human mages. What I'm basically saying is I think I can take 'em. ;)

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

It's not that the mages are under-priced (for the most part they aren't, though some are skirting the line), it's that this nation has recruit-anywhere mages which are the equivalent to most MA nation's cap-only mages... in addition to having what is arguably the best top-of-the-line mage in the Middle Age.

Pythium has the most powerful mage of the base game for MA (the arch theurge) which is path-equivalent to the Hidden Master (a 10.1 caster). And for a mere 20 gold more than an arch theurge you get stealth, flight, cold resistance, the ability to throw lightning (not that you'd often use it) and massively less age penalties. And I believe most people would happily trade in the arch theurge's water access for earth. Mictlan has another 400 gold cap-only mage-priest (the Couatl). However, they are only an 8.1 caster with access to only air, nature, astral and holy. Also, they have terrible slots, possessing only a head and 2 misc slots. Plus cold blooded is only a bad thing unless you have paths in death (for the jade mask).

But alright, some nations have crazy-go-nuts casters. After all, the 2nd best caster of the era is the Bakemono Sorcerer who is a beefy, recruit-anywhere, 9.1 paths, map move-2, sacred caster for 300 gold. Granted he's older than dirt but most nations would sell their teeth for a mage-priest like that. However, the armies of Shinuyama aren't nearly so nice or versatile as Shangri-la's. It looks like they modeled Shangri-la's army after MA T'ien Ch'i, since it has a good combination of spear, sword, glaive and bow units in both light, medium and heavy varieties plus nice, multi-purpose cavalry. However, they have both the composite bows of T'ien Ch'i and the dirt cheap, stealthy short bows of Shinuyama. Many troops also carry a slightly better than average shield (parry of 5 instead of 4) for no discernible reason.

This nation has:
1) the recruit-anywhere mage strength of Shinuyama (who has the best of the age), but WAAAY more diverse in it's paths
2) the super capital mage strength of Pythium (who has the best of the age)
3) the versatile and powerful infantry and cavalry of T'ien Ch'i (arguably the best of the age)
4) the stealthy light infantry of Shinuyama/Pangaea (those Bhopa infantry are really nice for their price)
5) the single greatest magic diversity of any nation of any age ever
6) 80 free design points from Cold-2
7) Really nice, build-anywhere move-2 elite heavy infantry
8) decent sacreds (in both human and ape flavors)
9) cold resistance/immunity and mountain survival for everything
10) some of the best heroes in the game
11) some really nice pretenders (with a rainbow immortal, a cheap immortal with high dominion and a titan with Air, Water and Earth for one of the best bless combinations in the game)
12) recruit-anywhere stealthy, astral, spy priests.

... and I still haven't bothered to look at the national summons.

Any given component about this nation is fine in comparison to what already exists in the Middle Age but all together it really strikes me as too much.

Again, tell me I'm wrong, but I'm just not seeing it.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Well, this is all speculation on my part, since I've never actually used them myself. However I am in a game with Shangri-La right now, and while I haven't bumped into them, a cursory look at the graphs shows they aren't doing very well. They really strike me as being in the same situation as MA Tien Chi in that their diversity can hurt them as much as it helps.

You'll obviously want to be recruiting a Hidden Master in your cap as often as possible, so thats 400 gold per turn down the drain. You're also going to want to get up some extra forts early to recruit some of your non cap mages (the lama's, mainly), who are also around 250 gold each. Plus you'll want to recruit infantry, cavalry, archers, whatever you're using for expansion, which are either gold hungry, resource hungry or both. Gold is going to be beyond tight in the early game, even with heavy order and production.

Their magical diversity, while great on paper, could easily just end up as a distraction. They only have really good earth, air and astral access. Death, and blood come on mages who suck at research and have no guarantee of more than one in each path, limiting their usefulness, especially since they compete with the much better overall lamas. Their only nature and water access are through the Wise Ones, underwhelming cap only mages who compete with the much better Hidden Masters for a cap recruitment slot and aren't guaranteed more than one in each path.

Overall they just strike me as a nation like MA Tien Chi. Sure, they can do a lot of cool stuff. But not all at once. An extremely skilled player could no doubt wreck with them, but they could just as easily flounder and die early. Anyone playing them would need to have very narrow goals for expansion, pretender design and midgame and endgame. Overall I'd vote to allow them, you seem to be on the opposite side. Of course it's Mighty Peon's game, so I guess it's up to him. :)

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Hi.
A short review from a person played Shangri-La in TestingGrounds (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47232).
- Mages and the diversity are really wonderful. So are lovely national heroes (Ascended one’s).
- Sacreds are not worth investment in heavy bless. They are very situational. And cap-only.
- Heavy troops require a lot of resources to be amass. So it takes a time to rally a significant force of them.
- They actually have difficulties with early expanding. So awaken pretender or extremely good scales are the must. And its’ player will feel a constant shortage of money.
- As for national spells I’d note only assassination in blood school(It’s cheap and effective) and Tau lvl-0. Most of the rest seem to be just for fun but not for effectiveness.

I would estimate SH-L as a strong but not super nation.
SH-La could be easily rushed by Ashdod/Mictlan/ArgaDis but you are OK with them.
Strong astral makes Shangri-La better than Shinuyama but all the rest seems to be equal (if you are choosing between them).

I recommend to give them a try.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Is this a case of Shinuyama or Shangri-La, but not both? If you only want eight players, I'd be happy to let BrodieSWR play. If nine is OK but Shangri-La isn't, I'll play Vanheim.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

ma jotunheim, thx

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I am not finally decided on Shangri La, but lets update the current roster:

1.Mightypeon: Black Rose of Ulm
2.Gurthan: Caelum
3.Ghoul 31: Acro
4.Dogged57: Tien Chi
5.Shatner: Pythium
6.Tratorix: Ctis
7.Ossa: Mictlan
8.nozshand: Jotun
9.Shadrach: Vanheim or Shangri La
10: Brodie SWR: Shinuyama
I think 10 players is plenty, and I am open for Map suggestions.
I believe that between 12-18 land provinces per player is nice, so we would be looking at roughly 100-120 land province maps.
I think Aran would be too small, and Cradle of Dominion too big.
What are your toughts on Parganos, Rusty Nails or Urrapparand?

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, this is rarely the case. I have been arguing theory against Shangri-La but, when I get a chance, I intend to try them out in a few SP games.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I much prefer Plane of Rusty Nails to those other non-wrap maps. Is Ephraim still in as Atlantis?

Shatner, your theorycrafting doesn't take cost into account enough, especially for troops and blood hunting (which is more expensive than for Jotunheim and almost as expensive as for Pangaea, which is to say: really freaking expensive). Your factual analysis also contains a few mistakes. The two best recruit anywhere mages are old, and ~40% of Hidden Masters are old. The unique rainbows are all very expensive, and all the immortals have a starting dominion of 1. The 5 parry shield is not strictly better than a normal shield: it has less protection (12 vs 15). Their shortbows cost the same as indie shortbows and are not as cheap as Shin's 9g shortbows (which at 2r are also 1/4th the resources). You're also exaggerating their stealth capabilities, which are comparable with Shin's but not in the same league as Pan's. Actually, no, I take it back. Yetis probably bump them up to being a pretty good stealth nation.

All that said, Shangri-La is very powerful (especially if they don't get rushed), and after looking at them more I think they might be a bit too powerful to be fun. Also Van is a heck of a lot more straightforward, which appeals to me at the moment, so I'm gonna go ahead and switch over to Vanheim if that's OK with Mightypeon.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I vote Parganos for the map. Not in the mood for a wraparound.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Ok, so Shagrach is in as Van.
So far, 1 vote for Rusty Nails, 1 vote for Parganos.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

I abstain

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Rusty Nails for me. Love the wrap.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

2 Nail 1 Parganos

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Rusty Nails would be nice.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

When is this shindig going to get started, you think?

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Perhaps on the weekend, I reserve the right to start once enough Map votes to gain a majority are in.
I am voting rusty Nails myself, making it 4 nails 1 parganos.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

nails it is then

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Rusty Nails I guess then.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Good, the map is rusty nails.
I am now trying how to start the game ;)

The game is comparably newblike, so I will put score graphs on, and lets have victory by concession.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

The game is not accepting my own pretender due to it being late age.
I am figuring out what is wrong at the moment.
Pming some people who know stuff atm.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA recruiting
 

Yay me, Please do the following steps:
-Download the "Black_Rose_Ulm_MC mod from llamaserver
-Join the game PointySticks
-I had to delete the game and recreate it, it will appear very soon.

The problem was with llamaserver not liking spaces in mod names at all.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA send Pretenders
 

The Proletariat is in! For the Progressive Ulmish revolution!

Re: Pointy Sticks MA send Pretenders
 

The link to the Black Rose mod seems to be broken.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA send Pretenders
 

I have updated the first post.

Another link:
http://llamaserver.net/sombre/Domini...e%200.282b.zip

Re: Pointy Sticks MA send Pretenders
 

I do hope the game will be under way soon. I'm itching to play Pythium in MP for the first time. And see how the new Ulm faction fairs.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA send Pretenders
 

7 nations signed up, 3 guys are still missing unless I fail at counting.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA send Pretenders
 

Pretender is sent. Hopefully I have the right version of Black Rose installed.

Re: Pointy Sticks MA send Pretenders
 

The versions only differ in their compatibility with other mod nations, so it should not be an issue as not other mod nation are there.