Fatigue 100- ?
 

Only been playing for a year....

I know you pass out at 100 fatigue (or is that start getting criticals, and 200 for pass out...?). All questions without Communion.

(Purely as an example, I happen to be looking at "Wind Guide" or "Thunder Ward".)

Do mages cast spells which cost them 100?
Does it have to be the first spell they cast (so thay start from 0)?
What exactly does the minus character in the "100-" tell me?

I think there may be detailed information threads, I'd be obliged foir quick answers which let me decide when to script a 100- fatigue spell!

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

100 or more fatigue is inaction. 200 or more is "extra applied against your hit points." Increase critical chance starts pretty much immediately, but isn't significant until fatigue gets over about 25.

Only if the enemy meets the AI's standard for "tough enough to merit that." It's best to hedge if you really want that spell to go off, perhaps by providing an extra appropriate gem to boost the caster's effective level and drop the fatigue cost.

It can't hurt, but that brings into effect other AI standards for what they like to cast at various points in the battle. Certainly casting it before the enemy is within range of attack spells that the AI might like more is a good idea.

I'm not sure, but I speculate that it means "this can be reduced by having a higher level in the appropriate magic path(s) than the minimum required."

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

You have an increased chance of criticals with any fatigue. You pass out at 100 and fatigue converts into damage over 200.
Mages are perfectly willing to cast spells that cast more than 100 fatigue, or put them over 100.
It does not have to be the first spell.

All the minus sign tells you is that fatigue cost is reduced by having a higher path level than needed. You'll notice that all spells have this.

Note that 100 fatigue also means 1 gem. You will actually take slightly more than 100 based on encumbrance.

Your mage will also happily burn extra gems to keep his fatigue down.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

@StarBelly
@thejeff
You seem to be in complete disagreement over first point?!

Indeed, in general, you seem to quite disagree with most of the answers....

No problem :), but could we please have the debate here and then reach agreement?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Perhaps that wasn't very clear... [Edit: or indeed, on very careful re-reading, I may simply have been wrong :), anyway.....]

Let's (deliberately) take a very simple example:

• I have a level 1 mage scripted to cast a level 1 spell with 100- fatigue.
• I do not give him any gems.
• The enemy is considered "worthy" of gemming against. (Edit: or rather, "tough enough".)
• There are no other relevant factors :)

Does he indeed cast the 100 spell if 1st scripted? If he had first cast, say, a 10- buff, would that affect his likelihood to cast a 100- on next round? Can I do several 10- -type buffs, and conclude scripting with a 100- ?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

No, thejeff's answers match what I thought I said. He just streamlined it and emphasized different stuff. I added the AI confusion.

Clarify it so:
1S caster has one pearl and is scripted to cast Power of the Spheres.
Yes.
Not without other relevant factors.
Yes.

Sometimes "other relevant factors" is "the AI really likes this one spell that you just researched that this mage can cast," but the basic answer is that the fatigue cost of the spell isn't a critical determinant most of the time when the mage decides whether to follow your script.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

I dunno. Maybe it depends on how fast your CPU is?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Also, you get additional fatigue. You get the spellcasting encumbrance added tot the specific spell fatigue. (the spellcasting encumbrance is visible if you click on the encumbrance line in the specific units unit window).

Iirc swamps and hot and cold provinces add some encumbrance. (if you do not have immunity).

Also, 100- fatigue spells still require one gem.

Each additional level you have above the spell requirements reduces the fatigue by 1/X+1 with X being the amount of levels you have above the requirements.

Secondary spell levels do not help reduce fatigue in any way.

So casting a f2 spell which does 200 fatigue with a f4 mage reduces the fatigue by 1/3. For a total of (200 * 1/3 = 67 rounded up) 57 fatigue + spell casting encumbrance.

This works for all spells, no need to add the - signs to spellcasting fatigue levels. (So write, a fatigue 10 spell, not a fatigue 10- spell).

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

To clarify.
All spells with a cost of 100- cost 1 gem.
That's what Soyweiser said, but it may not be clear enough.
The ai does not care about fatigue when deciding to cast a spell. It cares about gems.
So if it decides the enemy is puny and not worth spending a gem, it won't cast the 100- fatigue spell because it won't burn a gem, not because of the fatigue.
The ai will cast the spell if there are valid targets etc. and there are enough gems available and the enemy is deemed worthy.
It does not matter how much fatigue you currently have. The spell will be cast. The ai will try to burn gems to reduce the spell fatigue, and I think it's more likely to do so when you're already fatigued, but the effect is only on the number of gems you burn.
Also, I think the manual states a mage casting a spell can't get over 200 fatigue from the spell itself, but I never checked that.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Thanks, guys.

Sorry I made mistake about not realising every 100- fatigue spell costs 1 gem, I had not noticed that. So, I meant in my example the guy does have 1 gem, but no extra gems, nor extra expertise levels, to reduce fatigue.

It seems from your answers that he doesn't care about the fatigue, which is good, as it makes it easier for me to script!

But there must be a limit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are some spells with like 400- fatigue. If I script a mage, and he has no extra gems, no extra levels and isn't doing a Communion or similar, I should be quite happy if he killed himself casting it (I believe 400 fatigue kills you?), but will he commit suicide for me?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

200 is the limit. So, even if he is currently at 99 fatigue, if he casts a 500 fatigue spell, he will just have a total of 200 fatigue.

From there his fatigue would normally decrease by 5 per combat round, but if there is something that continues to give him fatigue (eg Grip of Winter, Heat from Hell, Rigor Mortis), and he is at 200, he will take HP damage instead of additional fatigue.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

A spell can only set you at 200 fatigue. The only way to kill somebody using spellcasting (well... you know... without friendly fire) is to use a communion.

Edit: somehow I missed deathblobs post.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

OK, soooo.....,

When casting a high-number- fatigue spell, the only point of bothering with extra gems/levels/slaves/etc. is if the calculation will take the final fatigue (added to now) down to 199 or less... prolly 99 or less so he isn't comatose... else you may as well go 500 over as 1 over... I don't think I'll bother, it's too hard to organise for the benefit... :)

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Well, it makes it a lot harder to cast them in communions and have the slaves still be awake/alive :D. At least, I assume that higher 200 fatigue has some effect on communion slaves, but I never tested this myself. (should be easy, but... you know... effort ;) ).

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Biggest reason to avoid punching fatigue over 100 in one spell is so that the mage can do something else during the battle, up to and including run away.

Communion masters casting spells can take slaves over 200 and kills those slaves deader than heck.
The slaves themselves can't cast themselves over 200 (but they can cast themselves unconscious and then die when the master(s) keep casting.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Odds are without extra gems or a communion you won't be casting it. Many of the high fatigue spells have high path rates, which means you are blowing gems or joining communions to be able to cast them at all.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

I understand I may have to blow 1 gem to get a path +1. But I meant that's it: I shan't bother with any further fatigue-savers. So 400- (or more) might as well be 200-; in fact a lot of the time it might as well be 100- for all the difference it makes.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

The difference is that for each 100, it will cost you one gem (or slave to cast it).

And a mage can only use as many gems (or slaves) as his current path level.

Also, if the mage is a higher level than the spell, he gets fatigue reduction.

Example 1:

Arrow Fend is A3 to cast, and 100 fatigue.

So, an A2 can blow 2 gems on the spell to cast it. Not possible if it was 200 fatigue (since he can't blow 3 gems).

An A4 can cast it with 1 gem, and end up with ~50 fatigue. If it was 200 fatigue, even if he blows 2 gems he ends up with ~66 (=200/3) fatigue.

Example 2:

Blood Rain is B3 to cast, and 300 fatigue.

If all you have is B1 mages, it is impossible to cast without a communion. So, first you need one make to blow one slave to become a communion master, then you need to blow four slaves for all of the communion slaves (one each). Blowing all those slaves will make the casters pass out, so you have to wait and hope they don't take too long waking up. Then the master needs to blow three slaves because it is 300 fatigue.

So that's a whole lot of slaves you need to blow to cast the spell, and you will definitely be very fatigued afterwards.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Perhaps I have not been explicit enough (though I thought I had) about the question I am trying to ask.

I was asking about the voluntary, extra gem when casting a fatigue spell. I understand the rule about gems are required to cast a spell, I am trying to understand how much to worry about reducing the final fatigue.

Let's take an example:

A spell requires level 4, costs 4 gems, and causes 400 fatigue ("Darkness" will do).

• I have a level 5 (five) mage.
• If I give him 4 gems, he gets 200 fatigue (i.e. reduced to 1/2 for possessing one extra level).
• If I give him 5 gems, and he boosts, he gets 133 fatigue (i.e reduced to 1/3 for possessing 1+1 extra levels).
• Not sure I can be bothered for that [especially, I think, if, say, he's already on 50 fatigue, and if that means the extra 200 fatigue maxes out at 200 and so can only add 150, if it works that way...(?)].

Simpler still, a level 4 (four) mage can cast it for 4 gems and get the 400 fatigue. But someone has said above that 200 is the maximum fatigue he can get anyway. So the level 4 mage comes out with no more fatigue than the level 5 mage with 4 gems in any case.

Right?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Right.

Having a D4 mage cast one spell and nothing else the rest of the battle is kind of painful, though. Especially if he's mortal and gets surrounded by harpies or imps that take him down when he can't strike back or defend, and is vulnerable to crits. I'd take steps to prevent one spell from laying him out for the rest of the battle.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Yes.

A lvl 4 D mage casting darkness would normally get 200 points of fatigue. But the spell is 400 points and it requires lvl4 you say? Yea but fatigue from a self-cast spell maxes out at 200. Even it it say that it will give 400 it will never give more than 200.

Thus a lvl 5 mage is equally bad as a lvl 4 mage for casting this particular spell, because they both end up with 200 fat at the end of it.

This is necessary if you think of it. Consider the spell master enslave that is lvl 8 and requires 8 pearls to cast. It also gives 800 points of fatigue. If the above was not so, the only way that anyone could cast this spell and live would be to have astral 10 and 10 pearls and that would be a little excessive dont you think?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

The most pearls you can use on an 8-pearl spell is 9, so the 10th pearl would be pointless. At most one gem can be used to boost caster level.

You could still use a communion. A really big one, with Power of the Spheres and Light of the North Star, to avoid instapopping all of the communion slaves.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

You misunderstood.

The extra pearl is not to increase the caster level. Its to prevent the caster from dying. Every 10 fat over 200 gives you 1 point of HP damage. If there was no 200 cap and you cast a spell that caused 800 points of fat with a lvl 8 caster then you would take 60 points of damage. Even an oracle pretender would die from that.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Noooo, at least I don't think so! If you read back from what has been said in posts here, and I think the manual, the claim is: you don't get fatigue->hits over 200 as a result of the action causing that fatigue --- you only get it for future fatigue.

At least, that's the kind of thing I'm asking... :)

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Umm, not quite (or it depends just what you mean). In my example, I'm claiming that a lvl 5 mage who boosts by 1 by having 5 gems comes out with 133 fatigue. (If anyone disagrees, please explain.) Whether that's "worth it" for the reduction seems to me debatable...

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

But the manual does not say that! :confused:
It says, you can spend 1 more than your skill level. (In this case, 10->11, which could be used to reduce fatigue.)
Where does it say you can only spend 1 more than the spell cost?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Guys, guys. Dont fight. You are both wrong.

A mage can spend as many gems on a spell as he has power in the relevant path. However, only one gem can be used to boost the casters casting level and that extra casting level cant be used to burn further gems. The rest of the gems can only be used to boost the caster lever for the purpose of mitigating fatigue. It will not boost caster level for other purposes.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

No, I am right. However it is only possible to get over 200 in a communion so in most cases this point is moot. In normal cases you simply stop getting fatigue at 200.

However, above I was discussing a hypothetical case were this cap would not exist. And what consequences this would have.

Sorry if was confusing people.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

So, to roll things back to something more common, an A5 caster with 5 air gems could cast Wind Guide with an effective level of A6 (net 1/5 fatigue), but could reduce fatigue by a factor of 1/8 by expending all five gems?

Have you ever actually gotten a caster to do something like that? I thought that as a practical matter the spell-casting AI would never use more than (gems required by spell) + 1 in casting a spell, and the other three gems in my example would then get used for later spells if at all.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

I am told that the AI will spend gems until the cost of the spell falls under 50 fat. Or possibly so that the caster remains under 50 fat. I have not tested this though.

But yes, an A1E3 rain of stone caster will easily spend 3 gems in a single casting of rain of stone, if allowed. This is why I used to use A1E2 casters instead if I wanted them to cast it more than once. A A1E2 caster can only burn 2 gems per turn and will thus have gems over for the next battle due to only burning max 4 gems before falling permanently unconscious.

An A1E3 caster would remain awake and continue to waste gems on misc spells until the enemy had left the battlefield.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

:doh: [brainache]

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

That is always reassuring to know :)

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Spellcasting fatigue makes my head hurt, and I'm sorry to resurrect an old thread, but maybe someone can help me understand better.

Let's say I have a caster with A3 who wants to cast Living Clouds, which requires A4 and has 200 fatigue. If I give him 3 air gems and script him to cast Living Clouds on round 1, will he do it? It seems to me he can use 1 gem to boost to A4, and 2 gems to cover the minimum, and so he can cast it and get 200 fatigue. (first of all can someone confirm that?)

But my gut tells me even though he can technically do it, the AI won't let him, because of some amorphous judgment that this is a bad idea and there is a better spell. Is that true? And if so, what is the AI judging based on? Because I think it's often really hard to ensure that your mages cast high fatigue spells even if you script them right and they have the gems to do it, the AI just says "nah, that's a bad idea." Thoughts?

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

He should cast it.

The exception would be if the AI decides that your opponent is too weak to bother wasting gems on - I don't know what metrics are used to arrive at that decision.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

just tried this exact thing. had a level 3 earth mage,cast earth power(now level 4) with 5 e gems try to cast earthquake. (300 fatigue, level 4 spell)

should have been well under 200-did not cast it

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Unless it`s a spell from some mod. :)

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

He should have cast it. I just did a test with EA Agartha. 4E with three gems casts it readily; so does a 3E with three gems after casting earth power first.

Keep in mind that if your mage is up against what it considers a minor threat, it won't use gems.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Unless I am misunderstanding you, the reason is that he cannot cast Earthquake in this situation. I believe we have gone this: your guy can only spend 3 Earth gems maximum on a spell. Actually, let's say it's 4 after Earth Power. Even then, it would be 4. I make it, that would allow Earthquake (Level 4), but only at 50% fatigue reduction (spend 4 gems when spell costs 3), which is still 150%. Whatever, I don't see how your guy needs/spends 5 gems, is that what you are relying on?

Clarification:
1. If a level 3 casts EarthPower, can he definitely spend 4 gems from turn 2 on? Or is his start-of-battle level taken as the "current skill level" maximum?
2. He gets some fatigue from casting the EarthPower on round #1. Does that affect what he can afford fatigue-wise on round #2?
3. How exactly do you plan he will spend those 5 gems?
:)

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

Example: if you are at 20 fatigue, and you cast a spell that gives one hundred fatigue, you will take no actions until your fatigue is once again under 100.

If you are at 20 fatigue and you cast a spell that gives you 200 fatigue, your fatigue will peg at 200. Again, you will take no further actions until you are below 100.

The only exception that I am *not* sure of: if you cast a spell that chains a second (or multiple spells) (most commonly modded spells), will the entire spell chain peg to 200, or will subsequent spells do HP damage (and rapidly kill you).

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

Fatigue shouldn't cause you to go off-script, if that's what you mean by "afford." Though of course if you pass out it'll take a while to get to your next command.

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

jonbrave, i guess you are right, since he didn't cast it...

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

lol, i'm not sure whether that's connected to the reason, i've learnt nearly everything i think i'm right about i'm wrong about :)

Re: Fatigue 100- ?
 

This is all counted as just one spell for the purposes of fatigue. What's chained are just spell effects, not entirely new spells. So the fatigue shown on the spell is what you'll end up with.