What am I doing wrong?
 

So, I tried a chassis today which I thought was pretty good, but the RNG didn't like very much. I GoR'd a gargoyle and kitted him out, including an amulet of Magic Resistence. With the enemy's drain scale of 1, his total MR was 17. I thought that should be reasonably adeqauate.

Instead, one of the enemy mages (S2) casts Control, and my Gargoyle is toast.

So how much MR do I need for an effective thug? I don't mind losing a thug after several turns of stomping chaff, but for the enemy mage to fry him on the *first try* scares me. Or was I just unlucky? Or does the AI cheat badly? I was playing against Mighty opponents. The mage in question was a CBM King of the Deep W2E2S2 with a pile of gems but no items to improve penetration.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

12 vs. 17 is not safe, a bit less than 10% chance, I guess. Look at the table for the DRN to get a feeling.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Anything above 20 is heartily recommended.
30 gets in the realm of safe, crap MR is one of the reasons why Gargoyles dont see that much use often.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

What mighty peons said.
Most decent chasis start at 18, and even then, that's low, and you are advised to slap an Amulet on them to get to 22 at least.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

A gargoyle is usually a fine thug despite the mr. If you know how to scrip him that is.

(Hint: Control and opposition only have range 20)

Remember to give him a silver hauberk or something to protect him from arcane bolts and you are golden.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Well, I was planning to use him to stomp AI hordes, so scripting him to stand in the back and wait is suboptimal. If his troops are cooperative it will work, but his archers will likely stand back and fling arrows till my gargoyle charges them and gets fried.

It looks like the undead thugs really have an advantage over earth summons against astral. Yes, astral has some painful anti-undead spells, but nothing quite so bad as control/opposition/etc.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Paralyze has range 100. Just becouse your enemy is a vampire it does not means you have to use a wooden stake, when you can just use your standard bazooka.:-)

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

LOL!

OK, so let's say I pass on the Gargoyle and use a Troll King instead. With base MR of 17, plus an amulet of magic resistance pushing him to 21, how long will it take a half dozen S2 mages to fry him? Assuming AI mages with no spell focuses/etc.

I'm obsessing over the earth summons because I'm determined to get a high native protection. If you drop a Robe of Shadows on a Bane Lord he gets chewed up pretty quickly. A troll king casting Invulnrability on himself is much hardier. The only annoying thing is the 55 gem cost, that's brutal, barely compensated by the high-upkeep trolls that come with him.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

There 's no way to have a SC completelly inmune to everything. However, 21 is good enough,probably can survive 100 shots or close to (barring bad luck RGN)

That said, you dont really need robe of etherealness to have a thug. Most the time, a pendant of luck and a vineshield is enough to save your banelord. The Wraith helmet gives you etherealness as well. A shield.with awe is good too. However, almost anything able to pierce or kill a Banelord/gargoyle/troll king, will have magic weapon and bypass etherealness.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

No, I gave it a try. Without the etherealness, a bane lord gets hit too often by a horde of Dai Bakemonos, routs, and dies. With the etherealness he gets chewed up and spat out due to insufficient protection (even with boots of stone) Meanwhile, the ethereal gargoyle or an ethereal ironskinned troll king pound on them relentlessly. Admittedly the extra HP of the gargoyle and the regen of the troll king help a lot.

Like you point out, anything with a magical attack is going to be a problem, but I'm trying to kill chaff mostly.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Take a look at some other defenses. Luck is easily gained, and there are other interesting options. Awe has been discussed, as well as the Vine Shield and its entangling effect. Then there are the really fun options. The Charcoal Shield, for instance, can be surprisingly effective as a form of protection against chaff. Then there is the matter of numbers. One Bane Lord will get cut down, true. What about three, each armed with a frost or fire brand? That will take a lot of chaff, or chaff buffed to the point they no longer deserve the name.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

what Knai said.

Sure, a Banelord naked is not enough to fight against hordes of huge strength guys with 2 handed weapons as Dai Bakemonos. That's clear, those Dai Bakemonos hit through his armor.

But give the Banelord a Golden Shield (awe)+Luck Pendant, and let's see how it works :)

Probably a Vine Shield might be enough. Vine Shield + Luck Pendant would work for sure.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

There's no such thing as being really safe, but to be "safe" you need to be somewhere in the vicinity of 24mr. A gargoyle wearing all of the +mr gear (mr amulet, starshine skullcap, rainbow armor, lead shield) is in this vicinity, though obviously a lot weaker than normal in actual combat. Probably the easiest thing to switch out and keep it strong in melee would be the shield, and that should leave you with 22 or so mr. Also, for etherealness, try bringing along an astral mage to buff with body ethereal.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Triqui is right about the etheralness. If you are kitting thugs right, the normal damage negated by it isnt really what you're worried about. Magic is what is going to take down most thugs, and etheralness doesnt protect against it. Sure, lucky rolls can still kill your thug, but imo the robe isnt worth it- losing the protection and other benefits from the chest slot isnt worth the etheralness.

Think about it this way- etheralness protects against 75% of non-magic hits ( I think), while an amulet of luck protects against 50% of all hits, and lets you have higher protection (by having armor) for the hits that do get through. It's really a better deal.

Doubling or tripling up on thugs is also a good idea. At first it doesnt seem efficient- ideally, two fully kitted thugs could raid two different provinces. But pairing them allows you to get away with less gear on each letting you save on gems (as compared to fully equipping them). And it will increase their odds of survival.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

If you're playing CBM, try the Poison Golem. No flight (without gear), but it's MR starts out a lot higher. I'm fond of boots of the behemoth and a pair of shields, but that is just me.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

I think you are all misunderstanding the purpose of thugs and gargoyles in general. They are not supposed to beat every kind of enemy. They generally have a specific task in mind and things that fall outside that scope should be handled in other ways.

For the gargoyle the main selling argument is that you get a flying raider that can knock over most PD and cant be mindhunted for 16 gems (in CBM 1.92).

Why on earth would i want to spend 35 gems equipping it with mr gear in order to block just one of the uncountable myriad of things that can kill a thug? I could get two additional Gargoyles for that cost! Thugs die all the time! Deal with it!

It would be much better to just get 3 Gargoyles, give them a frostbrand and hope that they kill and conquer more than they themselves are worth.

If you are facing an astral nation, dont give them mr items. No, give them a silver hauberk. Control and opposition have short range and if you stay out of that range the mages will switch to other spells. Just wait until the enemies comes to you. If an enemy comes within melee range the Gargoyle will automatically stop waiting and attack it.

From the astral path of magic the only other dangerous spell -(that I can think of right now)- is arcane bolt. And that's were the silver hauberk comes in. It cost 5A and gives you the spell effect Air Shield 80%. And because Arcane bolt is a "bolt" spell it can be blocked by Air Shield.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Paralyze has range 100, as I said before. Most of the normal anti thug spells have MR.

Obviusly, for a thug, it might not be needed. For more serious SC (ie: the ones you use against armies,instead of raiding PD), MR is a must. You dont need a huge amount, just using the right chasis and an amulet to raise it to 22 is enough.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

But triqui, the Gargoyle is mindless. This means that it is immune to all forms of magic that affect the mind.

Paralyze? Immune! Soulslay? Immune! Enslave mind, charm, and master enslave? Immune!

In fact, mindlessness in combination with the other tag called lifeless means that the Gargoyle is immune to all MR-negate spells!







...with the exception of these four: Control, Opposition, Arcane Domination and Disintegrate. And leaching darkness apparently. Dont give it a shadow brand! Blind is a maybe? Anyway, all of these spells Except Arcane Domination are short ranged and can be dealt with by using the above methods. And if your enemies are hunting your thugs with Arcane Domination... Well, then you really have worse things to worry about.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Good point, I stand corrected :)

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Just to be clear, I was talking about a fully kitted thug. For the Gargoyle: Vine Shield, Pendant of Luck, Amulet of Antimagic, Boots of Behemoth, Sword of Swiftness, Robe of Shadows, and that horned helm. That's why I like the robe of shadows so much -- combine that with the pendant of luck and the vine shield, and you're wrapping up troops left and right for minimal damage.

A horror helm would probably protect the thug better... but I'm trying to wipe out AI hordes, not just send them screaming into the hills. Although with the gargoyles I could fly them in and cut off their retreat and exterminate them that way.

Any modest quantity of bane lords against 300+ troops just dies after inflicting minimal damage. A single kitted gargoyle will stampede them plentifully -- unless an astral mage fries him first.

Do the other MR item effects stack? Maybe the rainbow armor and doubleshielding with the lead & vine shield is the way to go.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Don't full kite thugs. Full kite only SC. 2 optimal kited thugs costs same as 1 full kited but are much better.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Use a full kitted Wraithlord. With Soul Vortex you are quite strong. Add stoneskin boots, gold shield or lead shield, luck pendant and antimagic amulet, with a "brand sword" of some sort. Put some heavy armor (blacksteel) or maybe rime hauberk for extra Area of Effect damaging aura.

You get 21-25 MR, high prot, etherealness, luck, two damage auras, life leech, AoE sword, fear, good hp and a couple of inmunities.

Double damage auras are very destructive.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

The Wraith Lord is immortal, full kitting it is pointless. They work best as defensive troops with minimal kit, as the kit is easily replaced. Soul Vortex, Charcoal Shield, Frost Brand, Luck Pendant, Antimagic Amulet, done*. They already have solid armor, so it usually isn't worth sticking either armor or a helm on them.

*If you can get away with less than that, do it.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

My aim is to "rainbow kit" my thug. Spending 10 gems of each type is better than spending 70 gems of one type, unless I have an alternate use for them which is better.

Maybe my thug is good enough for stomping troops, as long as I avoid particularly troublesome mages.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Using thugs against the AI is different than against players. Players will kill your thugs whatever you do, generally sending something specifically designed to do so, whether be targeting specific weaknesses or using anti-thug thugs. Thus you make thugs as cheap as you can and hope to raid a few lightly defended provinces before they get nailed.

The AI won't react to what you do. So you usually only have to worry about covering his major paths. MR if he's got good astral, lightning resistance if he's got Air, etc.

OTOH, players tend to leave a lot of poorly defended provinces around since a good thug can take a lot of PD and actual troops are needed at the front. The AI tends to buy PD and have a lot of troops wandering around its backfield. This means you'll run into more generic troops and for a thug to be useful it has to be able to handle that. Which usually means a more expensive chassis and/or more gear. Which is OK, since they're not guaranteed to get targeted and killed as they are in MP.

To get any real use out of a thug in SP, he has to be almost an SC. Able to deal with pretty much any amount of normal troops. 20+ protection. Luck. Awe/Vines/maybe ethereal. No fatigue. Probably regen. AoE weapon.

Re: What am I doing wrong?
 

Lol, in the game that I'm playing right now there's a tug of war over my earth kings...

He charms/ hellbinds heart them, I return the favor...

Lead shield, amulet of am, ect...

Its funny to see them attack one side then change and attack the other...

Sometimes they just stand there in confusion...:lol