Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

What determines a vehicles size?
1) Weight
2) Length
3) Height
4) Width
5) Class
6) Barrel or weapon size
7) Crew size
8) Something else?

Vehicle sizes range from 2 to 6
Example: Tank Transporter 4 / Tanks 4or5 (Tank Transporter should be 6 or 7)

Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment.

Is their any way of getting a set of rules as a guideline for vehicle size?

This issue is critical to fair game play as size affects spotting and hitting.

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

2) Length
3) Height
4) Width

Read the MOBHACK Help file

"SIZES OF UNITS

INFANTRY:

Size 0: Snipers, FOOs, Scouts, Inf-AT, Inf-SAM (all 5-men or less), MMG & HMG (see section on machineguns)
Size 1: all others

Note the ATGM teams are specifically made easier to spot in the game code because of the large flash and smoke emitted by these weapons.

ARTILLERY - GUN SIZES

Howitzers (on-board ONLY * )

up to 49mm = 0
50mm to 110mm = 1
111 to 150mm = 2
151mm to 215mm =3
216mm to 250mm = 4
250mm to 299mm = 5
300mm + = 6

* Counter battery fire does not use size as a factor for potential damage to off board artillery units. Any size number these units may have is ignored by the game


Infantry Guns and Anti-Tank Guns

up to 70mm = 0
71 to 120mm = 1
121mm to 180mm = 2
181mm + = 3

AA Guns

up to 40mm = 2
41mm to 90mm = 3
91mm + = 4"

Some very small ATV vehicles are size 1 but 99% are size 2+.
If you go thru the OOBs you can get a pretty good idea what size equates to what vehicle type.

There are of course exceptions, some based on OOB designer interpretation others on "common sense". Example : A medium truck with a canvas cover on the bed has a huge cross section ... but shooting holes in the canvas isn't going to bother the vehicle a bit so it's "size" may (and should) be less then it's height x length x width would indicate.

Inconvenient - yes
Annoying - yes
Critical - no (unless the size variations are greater then +/-1)

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

Vehicle sizes are determined by their size in relation to other pre-existing units. In other words, the OOB designer looks at other tanks roughly the same size and uses that size or makes them one size bigger or smaller based on judgment. Given vehicles are either 1, 2,3,4,5 or 6 in size it is an acceptable system. The problem is when two different people interpret the same unit differently but 1 size either way does not have a serious impact on game play due to the large number of variable factors the game use as noted in Suhiir's post.

That said if Tank X in nation Y is size 4 and the same tank everywhere else is 6 there is a problem that needs addressing and if you have been reading the other threads on this forum you will already know that these issues are being reported and dealt with.

So YES, Length and Height and Width are the main determining factors in choosing a vehicle size but there is not and never will be a mathematical formula devised and used to determine a vehicles size. It's a judgment call and if you are aware of similar units with differing sizes then please do read the Anomaly thread in it's entirety and if there is a unit you know about that has been omitted tell us and we will note it down for investigation. That would be much more useful than blanket statements that "Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment"


Don

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

I'm actually saving the tanks themselves until last - I wonder why?:)

Richard H

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

NO idea... maybe it's an assumption ?

I have no doubt you will find some but with over 35,000 units it's more than likely

However, the original post was about vehicles. The example I gave was tanks so unless we are nitpicking the size of a medium truck the tank sizes should be the same

All M48's are
All M60's are
All Abrams are
All T-80's are
All T-72's are
All T-55's are
All Shermans are
All T-34/76's are
All T-34/85's are
All Leopards are

all those tanks are the same size as other tanks by that name so you won't find a Greek Leo 1 a different size than a Canadian one

I'd go on but I have plenty to keep me busy

Don

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

Suhiir- I have read the help files and nothing about vehicle size is mention other than SCALE ( Vehicle Icons ) One icon pixel equals six inches.

DRG- I'm sorry if you feel like I'm nitpicking, I'm just bringing up observations of the game for conversation and possibly for future upgrades. I gave an example, how is a tank transporter smaller than a tank?

Some Icons are smaller in size but are rated larger?
Example: Sherman tank vs Challenger tank, M109 vs M1a2
Some Icons are the same but are rated different
Example: Stryker vs Lav3

If their is no affect on game play for vehicle size than disregard my last

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

I SPECIFICALLY used "medium truck" as the "nitpicking" example because medium truck is just a unit class name and the "medium truck" used in one OOB could easily be a different overall size than the "medium truck" used in another OOB. There is no 10 commandments of unitclass naming that says "Thou shall always rate this truck size 3 in this unitclass...no more..no less" It's depends on what the OOB designer needed to use it for and what a "medium truck" is in that nation. Yes, GENERALLY they will be all about the same size but more and more people are making these variations out to be far more serious issues than they are.

As to tank transporter.. how tall is the trailer of a tank transporter when it's empty ? 3 feet high ? How big a target is that? We picked a number for those years ago and stuck with it.

The Sherman is a tall tank. We have 6 sizes to choose from and based on it's opponents 5 was decided on as the best size choice all things considered. Should it be 4 ? Thats the same size we use for a Pz IV . A Sherman is a taller target and should be bigger than a Pz IV so it was made 5. We don't have the option of 3.4 or 4.2 it's 1 or 2 or 3, 4, 5 or 6.

M109 vs M1a2---OK WHICH M109 ?? You might make a case the early version should be 5 but not the Paladin

As to stryker vs Lav III one doesn't have a turret, one does. As I've said in other posts these are judgment calls and at some point somebody has to say this crosses the line and should be rated one larger or smaller than something similar and years later yes, it sounds like nitpicking especially when I have buried in work and NONE of these examples even comes close to "Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment" and PLEASE give me nation and unit number of all the "Some Icons are the same but are rated different" units you are aware of and I will make a note to look into it.

Feel free to find issues and report them but keep the comments realistic. I'm not going to pretend there are no problems with some of the numbers. I just discovered that 3/4 of the T-34's in MBT are size 5 and they should be size 4. That is being corrected now.

There are over 35,000 units and each unit in MBT has 68 data fields that could possibly differ and a great number of people have worked on these OOB's over the years so if there are differences I will deal with them but I need specifics not general statements like "Some Icons are the same but are rated different" tell me WHICH ONES.


Don

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

Sheer fear at the size of the task:)

I'll try & remember that bit about the T-34 & leave it out - the last thing I suspect you need is info 3 & 4 times over.

Please excuse my ignorance, but has amybody tried making a vehicle with size greater than 6? I see that hovercraft go up to 17. Hard-coded thing?

Richard H

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

[quote]The size of the truck should not be less because it has canvas. This makes it easier to spot/track and engage. You would engage the target until disabled or destroyed. If your just putting holes in the canvas than your probably using the wrong ammo to begin with.

1-6 is the standard for tanks since SP1

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

I experimented targeting different vehicles at their front profile and side profile and found no credible difference in targeting accuracy. The range to the target/speed seems to much more important deciding factor.

I will experiment with spotting vehicles with varying sizes/speed.

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

And you can note down I DO NOT care if loadcost of vehicle A is 10 and the same vehicle in another OOB is 12. I really ( REALLY ) don't care especially with tanks. The only thing loadcost is used for with tanks is loading into landing craft for beach assaults. It has no other purpose so it has to be 55 or below. I someone wanted to be able allow two tanks into a landing craft he would give the tank a weight of 27

In the past some players ASSUMED it was weight in tons. IT IS NOT otherwise most modern MBT's would not fit into a landing craft that has a code limit of 255 .


Don

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

How could it be otherwise when size the game code reads is limited to one number ?


Don

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

With the armour ratings for front and side I thought maybe the targeting/spotting would change with vehicle profile frontal/side?

If Russian tanks are size 4 than the height profile of a vehicle is the most important factor in determining size.

Most SPA are size 6 and have a high profile.

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

I thought the standard size of a main battle tank is 5

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

[quote=EOT;789514]I'd have to agree,the size of truck should should be relevant to the actual profile of the vehichle downrange,regardless if most may be canvas,and usually it's transporting men or equipment!

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

(SP2) Size Definition: The Measure of the unit's weight and bulk.
(SP3) Size Definition: The Measure of the unit's silhouette size.
Large units are easier to spot and hit.

(SP2 and SP3)
Infantry squads 1
Attack helicopters 2
Main Battle Tanks 5
No object is larger than 12

If we go with the (SP3) definition of silhouette than we can use the front/side profile.

Front Silhouette = Width X Height
Side Silhouette = Length X Height

If we add the two totals and divide them we can arrive at an average silhouette size.

Examples

Bradley IFV Game Size=(4)
Front Profile (11.81ft X 9.78ft)=115.51
Side Profile (21.49ft X 9.78ft)=210.17
Average Silhouette 162.84

M1 MBT (5)
Front Profile (12ft X 8ft)=96
Side Profile (26.02ft X 8ft)=208.16
Average Silhouette 152.08

Lav3 IFV (5)
Front Profile 81.88
Side Profile 210.68
Average Profile 146.28

Lav-25 (4)
Front Profile 68.96
Side Profile 176.36
Average Silhouette 122.66

Stryker (4)
Front Profile 71.37
Side Profile 163.54
Average Silhouette 132.92

M113 (3)
Front Profile 72.24
Side Profile 130.71
Average Silhouette 101.48

T-72 MBT (4)
Front Profile 88.06
Side Profile 163.54
Average Silhouette 125.8

M109-A5 (6)
Front Profile 112.32
Side Profile 220.32
Average Profile 166.32

M109-A6 (6)
Front Profile 115.56
Side Profile 241.92
Average 178.74

Leopard 2 MBT (5)
Front Profile 98.7
Side Profile 205.93
Average Silhouette 152.32

Challenger 1 MBT (5)
Front Profile 94.14
Side Profile 223.86
Average Silhouette 159

Leopard 1 MBT (5)
Front Profile 94.67
Side Profile 199.11
Average Silhouette 146.89

Warrior IFV (4)
Front Profile 83.81
Side Profile 191.36
Average Silhouette 137.59

AAV7A1 Amphibious APC (6)
Front Profile 119.46
Side Profile 291.37
Average Silhouette 205.41

BMP-2 (3)
Front Profile 83.05
Side Profile 177.28
Average Silhouette 130.17

Humvee (2)
Front Profile 42.48
Side Profile 90
Average Silhouette 66.24

Cougar AVGP (5)
Front Profile 70.52
Side Profile 166.75
Average Silhouette 118.64


Spotlights
Size 2 Humvee Silhouette size 66.24
Size 3 M113 101.71
Size 4 Lav-25 122.66 T-72 125.8
Size 5 Lav-3 146.28
Size 6 AAV7A1 205.41

In keeping with (SP2) Tradition we should gauge the size of vehicles based on the MBT size of 5 as a reference point. We can decide on what the cut-offs are for size 2,3,4,5 and 6.

Cut-off Points
Size 2 (50-79)
Size 3 (80-109)
Size 4 (110-139)
Size 5 (140-169)
Size 6 (170+)

If we go by these cut-off points than the vehicle sizes are very close to what we have now in SPMBT OOB's. I think the vehicles that are off on the sizes are either typos and only a few would need to to adjusted per country. The sizes are actually more accurate than I first perceived.

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

Never use SP3 as an example as it is a totally different game with totally different code then SP2 or WinSPMBT. The two are not really comparable.

As to trucks, point taken.

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

You wouldn't have to change the code, this is just a reference point/guide to follow when deciding on the size of a vehicle. This would be a quick slotting system so that the vehicles specs are as close to the real thing and so that guys like me don't complain.

There is enough various between sizes so that any amour upgrades and turrets/remote weapon station would not affect the size unless the vehicle was on the bubble.

Example: M4 Sherman Size 5 would change to 4
Front Profile (8.7ft X 9ft) = 78.3
Side Profile (19.2ft X 9 ft) = 172.80
Average Silhouette 125.55

T-72 Size 4 would not change
M1 MBT Size 5 would not change

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

Enough various so that if I found specs that say the height of the vehicle is say 7 inches shorter and someone else finds info that references 5 inches taller, the vehicle should still be in the same sizing slot.

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

I'll keep this simple

1/ We are NOT going to implement a mathematical formula to determine vehicle size in the game. It is an enormous waste of time and man hours for more reason than I care to itemize but for one ANY "information" used to determine vehicle length would have to EXCLUDE gun overhang and a high percentage of specs give the maximum length that includes gun barrels and gun barrels don't figure in to a size calculation like that. What you will end up with is, in the vast majority of cases, the same numbers we already use as you have already discovered. I didn't need all the math to know that. :)

2/ I said "1-6 is the standard for tanks since SP1" as in little tankettes are one and a Koenigstiger is 6 and everything else fits in between with something extraordinary like the Maus being a 7 with most tanks fitting into the 4 -5 range.

3/ All of that diverts away from that "Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment" claim and I'm still waiting for the list.




Don

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

What attracted me to the SP series 15+ years ago was how realistic the equipment specs/capabilities were and the seamless simulation between the different units. If we sound like were harping on you/game, that's not the goal. We have guide lines for non-vehicle units. We can do the leg work for the specs on the hull lengths, vehicle width and height.

1)I found the hull lengths quite easily.

2)It would be useful to have a hard rule to refer to, that would end arguments over a units size. If I'm the first one to have brought this issue forward then I guess it's not an issue.
I will then just edit the OOB's im my copy of SP.

3) "Most OOB's have many size discrepancies between vehicles and countries with same equipment" I apologize for this blanket statement as I didn't mean a vehicle such as a T-72 from country A was not the same size as country B. The point I was trying to to make was some vehicle units were either too large and/or too small within OOB's.

What kind of ideas or input are you looking for or not for possible future upgrades? I'm only guessing your the upgrade Jedi?

My next thread was going to be on Artillery guns ranges for counter battery, I guess no point in arguing about base charge ranges,base bleed ranges, Excalibur GPS type rounds and more OOB's with airburst (VT) rounds.

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

Don, understood, I'll bear it in mind. I'm hoping that the only Load Cost items I've brought up re vehicles are where it's been under 10.

@ EOT - if you search the forum, I think you'll find that all sorts of 'smart' shells have been discussed before. Trying to add base bleed ranges and different ranges for different charges will (IMHO, of course) only succeed in clogging up what in some cases are already nearly full weapons rosters.

Richard H

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

Don't need to add any more ranges except airburst (VT) for more OOB's. Just checking to see if the base ranges and extended ranges whether they be rap/bleed are accurate enough. Anyone find their countries off-map artillery ranges too long or short of a range?

Re: Vehicle Size- Does size matter?
 

I don't feel that sizes need general changing, but only my 3 cents: most important IMO should be height and "fullness" of silhouette (say, boxlike APC should be bigger target, than a tank with low hull and only streamlined turret reaching the same height, as APC's roof). Barrel is IMO negligible.

Tanks similar to T-54 are size 4, tanks similar to M-48/Centurion/Leo-II are size 5 and it seems OK. There will be always problems with border cases, and it's subjective. Mathematical formula won't help much, because a difference of 10 cm might decide, if it's 4 or 5. (I've had a similar problem long ago, when I was modifying aircraft sizes in SP-I).

Having said this, I think, that PT-76 is too small (3), comparing to T-54.

Michal