Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Some leftovers and some related to new developments in the iraqi army. Bar something I missed or new develoments this should be enough for the ground units.

Unit 352 Steyr SK-105
Unit 604 M901 ITV
Unit 555 Sajil-40
Unit 463 SF Section
They could be all deleted.

The SK-105 is reported to have been in service in some old sources but it appears that this was not the case (probably some planned deal cancelled).
While a large number of M113s are in the process of being transferred to Iraq no M901 are included: only APCs, mortar carriers and various command/logistical.
The Sajil-40 is the Iraqi name for 180mm ASTROS rocket. Minimum range is listed as 15000 meters in the sources (globalsecurity etc) so it should fall under the MRLS minimum range ban.


Unit 43 ZSU-23-4V
Unit 312 BTR-152K
Unit 316 OT-64C SKOT
Unit 397 SNAR-10 GSR FO
Final availability date should be restricted to 4/2003
As far as can be told such units have not been used after OIF.

Unit n. 318 Panhard M3 VTT
It could be reclassed as class 23 APC (Wheel)
Currently it is available only in a formation that does not go past 4/2003. It would also compensate for units 312-316 being restricted to 4/2003, thus avoiding gap in formations using wheeled APCs. Some panhard APCs have been used by the new Iraqi army.

Units 346-571: SU-100M
1)FC reduced to 3 and Stabiliser to zero
2)Weapon n. 56 in slot 2 replaced by weapon n. 54 12.7 DShK AAMG
3)Final availability date could be extended, say to 12/1986.

No stabilizer were fitted, being an assault gun it would have made little sense; as far it can be told the SU-100M was a very modest upgrade. It appears from pictures that a few SU-100s may have still been around in the early part of the Iran Iraq war, probably dragged out of storage like the T-34.

Rationalization of assault guns
Unit 346-347-348-349 SU-100M, JSU-122 and JSU-152 could be reclassed as class 39 SP Gun
This would concentrate nearly all the vintage soviet assault gun in formation 18 leaving the car mounted RCL in formation 285-286

Formation n. 285 Assault Gun Co
Formation n. 286 Assault Gun Pl
Availability dates changed to 1/1957-4/2003

Formation 20 Spec Forces Co
Sapper platoon in slot 5 could be replaced by another SF Platoon

Air defense
Formations 174-176 SP-SAM and 18 SAM Battery
I suggest them to be denationalized or otherwise made unavailable.
It is still unclear what, if any, SAM systems will be purchased and when. The priority, and they haven’t been moving fast, appears to be on fielding ground based radars/support and one-two fighter squadrons to have at least a nominal air defense and ground attack capability by 2015 or so, to be followed by additional fighter squadrons before 2020. It seems likely they are following the US model of prioritizing fighters over ground based air defense and given there is barely enough money for the former it is difficult that anything will be done for the latter in the next few years, at least beyond the occasional talk.
If and when they change their priorities and make concrete moves towards acquiring such systems they could eventually be put back in.

Formation n. 245-246 SP Rocket Bty and SP Rocket Pl
Incorrect number of units
It seems that Iraq used the standard 6 MRLS per battery and 18 per battalion organization. The most straightforward solution would be deleting formation n. 245 and increasing the number of units in formation 246 to six changing its name to SP Rocket Bty.

A clone of unit 552 BM-21 could be added with 1/2011-12/2020 as availability dates. An handful have been recovered and apparently put back in service.

Unit 609 ILAV could be rearmed with weapon n. 165 50 cal TMG
This would potential free up weapon slots for later use in what is already a clogged weapons list.

Units 36-38 Assad Babyl
Icon changed to n. 357. These tanks were just T-72M1 with perhaps a little extra armor and some other minor modifications.

Formation n. 721 Kurdish Company
Units in slots 2-3 replaced by either two scout units or one scout and one 60mm mortar unit n. 804
It would make it look like more a regular infantry company, as the Kurdish units are being retrained as regular mountain units

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

It's right to remove KPVT from SU-100, but has anybody seen a photo of SU-100 (especially in Iraqi service) with any AAMG?...

JSU should be changed to correct ISU.

Some other thoughts:

025 T-62 - according to Zaloga's New Vanguard 158 on T-62, Iraq received them in 1973 (now: 1/72).

049 Vickers Mk.6b - current armament is of Mk.VIc variant (by the way, Roman numerals were only used). Mk.VIb was armed with 0.5 in Vickers TMG (a bit worse, than 0.5 Browning) and 0.303 Vickers CMG (eg. #73 Vickers CMG from EGY OOB). I don't know which version Iraq used, but Mk.VIb was more common and is pictured.

052 SPG-9 - correct pic is 11117

053 B-10 PH Team - correct pic is 29215

061 BTR-50PK - just for a sake of completeness: it could carry up to 20 soldiers. It might cause problems of loading two sections into one APC (which might be true, btw), but #62 OT-62 has carry=118, so both can be the same.

065, 072 BRM-1 - If it's meant to be real Russian recce BRM-1K, then it needs modification, because now it's just BMP-1 with reduced armament. BRM-1K had a laser RF, ground radar and 2 SD, proper pic 11488 (only unit 72 has GSR). According to Russian sources (Bronekollektsya and others), it had 20 rounds for a gun only. Crew should be 4 + only 2 scouts, not 3+109 (might be 3+3, then we could create a formation with BRM carrying scouts - same for BRDM and other scout vehicles).

066 etc BMP-1 - standard load according to all Russian sources was 4 Malutka missiles, which concerns all countries. There was a theoretical possibility of carrying the 5th missile always on a launcher, what probably suggests Western sources that it could take 5 missiles, but a normative load in a vehicle were 4 missiles. As my friend from mechanized infantry said: "theoretically you could also fill a combat compartment with 20 missiles, taken from other IFV's".

102 7.62mm MMG Sec - proper pic for PKS MMG is 45377, same for #308

104 12.7mm HMG Sec - proper pic for NSV is 11096, same for #310

111 Mi-6A - correct pic is 11177 (now its Mi-26)

281 BA-64 - actually, it had AAMG (open turret, high elevation). But were they really exported to Iraq? I couldn't find confirmation in Russian sources (mentioning Yugoslavia, Korea and China). Production ceased in 1946, so it would be hard to find working machines in 1959.

288 BRDM-2 - if we make it class:scout vehicle, than it's worth to use them in formations carrying scouts (now: armoured car)

291 Al-Walid - correct pic is 7504

294 FUG-70 - if it's meant to be Hungarian PSzH-IV, judging from armament (I don't know if Iraq used them), then proper pic is 23484 or 23039

301 BRDM-2b (unused) - it could be changed to interesting Iraqi modification with 23 mm gun, used in 80s.

316 OT-64C SKOT - was there really such Iraqi variant of Skot with Malutka missiles? There were known photos of such Polish vehicles, but missiles were only mock-ups, and they didn't became operational.

325 Light Truck - class: utility vehicle. Should this generic vehicle be A/T wheel, if we have A/T Jeep, Land Rover, GAZ and UAZ in the same class?

330, 331 TO-54, TO-55 - it needs confirmation, if Iraq used flame tanks. Russian sources don't mention, that they were ever exported, while numbers of built tanks weren't big. It's doubtful IMO.

336 GAZ-66 - class: light truck. If we have a light truck named specifically GAZ-66, it should be A/T wheel?..

535 BMD-1 - Russian sources all say it carries 3 Malutka missiles, not 4. It could carry only 5 troops (+2 crew) - same for Russian.

Possible addition:
MT-LB /2B9 mortar - like Soviet unit #591 MT-LB Vasilek. Used in 1991 (seen on photos).

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Nope. But it gives it a bit of extra flexibility game wise and since I have seen only limited photographic evidence of iraqi SU-100s
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9828/iraqi20008.jpg
I did not feel like cutting it out, particularly as they seem to have bolted additional AA weapons on a number of chassis. I'd recon it could be argued either way.

From what I recall, but I am only going by memory, those iraqi Vickers were scrapyard items which the iraqis recovered, repaired and rearmed with whatever was available, in some cases 15mm Besa, in others only 0.303s. Keep also in mind that there are very few weapon slots left so one has to be careful which weapons to add.

These were originally redundant BMP-1s with some off stats. I suggested them to be modified into BRMs, since that was what they were closer to. From what I read at that time not every BRM was fitted with GSR and given the role I would expect the LRF to be an add on, rather than integrated into the gunner sight.
The alternatve would have been deleting them but I have no idea if they were actually exported to Iraq or not.

Like for a number of other items there is no way to tell either way, short perhaps of digging in some russian archive or interviewing some old iraqi. Personally I thought it was not exported but I could not be sure and I had a long list of more urgent changes.

There is alredy a BRDM-2 classed as scout vehicle in a formation with dismounts available.

I am not sure it was actually produced beyond prototype stage.

Me neither, but everyone has them and that flamethrower T-62 which probably never existed to boot.

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

No idea. I would suspect it is just a carryover from polish OOB or whatever other OOB the OT-64 were picked from. The armored threat on the iranian front was less than in Europe to warrant such, though still present.


As noted, not enough weapon slots left to add any odd little used weapon. While there are some unused or redundant weapons in addition to those one has to be careful to overwrite them with something not too dissimilar, least they screw up already existing scenarios.

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

049 Vickers Mk.6b - I've checked, and only 88 Vickers Mk.VIc were made, with some 900 Mk.VIb, so VIb is more probable. But I wouldn't suspect, that Iraqi weapons file is so crowded...

065 BRM-1 - I see. However, number of troops carried might be lowered and we could create some nice formation with scout vehicles and scouts (I haven't noticed such unit).

As for BRM-1K export, Russian sources say, that they were exported "mainly" to Warsaw Pact countries - so we can't be sure :-) However, Poland and CS received them only in late 80s.

281 BA-64 - I think it can be removed. They were withdrawn from the Soviet Army by mid-50s and would be rather worn-out, while they could export newly produced BTR-40.

As for BRDM-2 with 23 mm gun - I think we could add one. Authors like Zaloga write about "some" vehicles rearmed, so I think it's worth adding, even if there were few.

316 OT-64C SKOT - I think, we can safely remove this one.

Further thoughts:

225 BRDM-1 Shmel - I'm pretty sure, that Iraq hadn't them, but I can't prove it :-( A Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_2p27.htm says, that they were exported to Warsaw Pact countries, but it is known, that Cuba had them as well. I've read somewhere, that BRDM with Shmel were never used in combat. Anyway, proper picture is 29057.

227 BRDM-2 Konkurs - proper pic is 29253. According to Russian sources, it carries 15 missiles (now: 10).

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

The problem is not as much whether it was b or c, if you have identified them as b variant it could be indeed changed to such (though it should be noted that even relatively rare equipment made to Iraq such as at least one M13 tank and a german SPG) as I did not identify the subtype, as to what the iraqis actually armed them with. From what I read at the time they were rearmed with what could be fitted as original armament had been removed.

As for weapon slots, there are only six available slots left, of which a couple ought to be earmarked for ATGMs, one might be taken by a PGM for the to be supplied F-16s and another by the S-8 rockets. Anything else will have to come from overwriting redundant weapons, which has to be done with prudence, least you end up with off map artillery armed with ATGMs or some such in older game scenarios.
As for why this is the case remember that Iraq has purchased both western and eastern gear.

Formation 295 contains six scout teams and six scout vehicles, which can be chosen from all the available class 32 vehicles: BRDM-2 clone, BRM-1, M60P light APC, jeeps etc...
As for availability remember that the iraqis paid in hard currency, so if they wanted something that was cleared for export they could usually (though not always and not all of the time) get it. I was not aware of the reduced ammo load or the extent of the reduction in carried dismounts.

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

BRDM-2 Konkurs carries 10
BRDM-2 Fagot carries 15

Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

The missles had already been corrected but the 2 crew/ 6 passengers for BMD-1 will will remain unchanged. They have that standard across all OOB's that use that vehicle.

Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

The real point is this was an educated guess based on scant information of an EXTREMELY minor vehicle so let's not spend any more time on it becasue we are perfectly happy with it being armed with the 15mm Besa and the effect on gameplay if changed would be more in the mind than reality and I've already corrected the photo .
OK ??

Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

049 Vickers Mk.6b

That's what I wanted to say as well :)

As for BRDM Konkurs (9P148) - Russian sources ("Otechestvennye protivotankovye kompleksy" 2002 book) say, that it carries 15 Konkurs OR 10 Konkurs and 10 Fagot missiles.

As for BMD, this is a complicated matter... I don't say it should be changed, but just for information: according to Russian sources, BMD-1, 2 and 3 can carry only 5 troops (incl. commander) + driver + gunner. I can attach a cross-section of BMD-1, which shows three seats behind a turret and two beside a driver (operating machine guns). So it seems, that Russian BMD section in reality has only 5 men - and BTR-D in that case carries two sections (10 men).

Regards
Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Carry capacity is somewhat an abstract affair. For example in real life you could split an infantry squad between two armored Humwees, in the game it is not possible.

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

And it gets fuzzy when the commander can stay with the vehicle or dismount with the section. The game has no such option to stay/leave.

As far as the game is concerned APC 123 is commanded by leader Bloggs, and the dismounts are commanded by leader Smith. (No Smith if the squad is mounted, and an Y/N to dismount Smith if the team gets out. Who commands if Smith stays with the vehicle?. What if there are >1 dismount teams?. If he dismounts, does the vehicle lose use of weapon slot #3?. etc)

It would be terribly difficult to implement such a mechanism in any meaningful way even for human players to manage, let alone have the poor AI decide what to do.

In OOB design, it is entirely up to the OOB designer to decide whether the element's commander is counted in the vehicle crew total, the dismounts, or both.

Its a company/Battalion level game after all. Micro-details like where exactly Smith is can be left to the first-person view squad level shooter type video games.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Yes, but this is rather not the case with APC's, for practical reasons. Besides, it would make some sense with 10-men squads, carried by two IFVs, not with 6-men ones. Even in that case, a squad would probably consist of two relatively independent 5-men sections, each with RPG and LMG.

But, as I've said, I'm not insisting it should be changed - it's just for information (and decision).

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Fortunately, with BMD it is simple, because a commander has to dismount (in other case, it would be 4 troops fighting). The vehicle remains with driver and gunner.

As a point of interest, I have a Polish military script about BMP platoon usage (it is probably similar to other BMP users, based upon Soviet pattern):

There are three BMP in a platoon, each with 10 men. In one of them, a platoon commander travels, and in each one, a squad commander. Those, who dismount, are: three 7-men squads, the platoon commander and a sniper (I don't know however, if he's included in one squad or on a platoon level, but I'll try to ask). There remain three drivers, three gunners, and platoon commander's assistant, who commands the vehicles.

BTW: it's worth to correct a structure of Polish units this way (now they have 9-8-8 squads, should be 8-7-7 + sniper), but I'm reluctant to start a new thread, not to annoy Don, who's already overloaded with details from me... ;)

Edit: PS - in Czechoslovak army it was roughly the same, but web pages mention about 29 men in BMP platoon, not 30 - maybe without a sniper.

Edit2: the sniper is included into one squad.

Regards
Michal Derela

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

If you want to know what the "standard" will be for units of Russian origin look at the Russian OOB. When it conflicts with other nations I change the other nations with very few exceptions ( I have already corrected a couple of minor inconsistencies in the Russian OOB this year but these were all fixed a couple years back within the limitations of the game code )

If you want to debate those values I can point you to the Russians who provided the information and you can debate the issue with them and get back to me then I'll decide if it's worthwhile.

In some cases those vehicles carry a specialist unit, in others it's a couple of scout sections that cannot be reduced to 5 from 6 men and in the end it really all matters about this . .....||.... . much at the end of a battle.

....however, in this case I will review the issue again when I get to it but as I already noted in another thread there is little chance now that every "error" report issued in this latest feeding frenzy will be addressed this time around.



Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

To make it clear: only BMD issue concerns the Russian oob directly.
As for BMP, I can only guess, that not all the vehicle's capacity (2+9) was actually used, as it was in case of Poland and Czechoslovakia, but it was only for information. Moreover, I have a sketch of East German usage in a book, which shows 9 men only seated in BMP ("als Fahrzeug der mot. Schuetzengruppe" - I don't know German terminology well).

As a point of interest, I attach cross-sections of BMD-1.

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Unit 551 BM-14 SP has a picture of BM-21 - proper is 29336 or 65362.

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

227 BRDM-2 Konkurs - icon should be 2341

260 BRDM-2 Malutka - icon should be 2321

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

042 ZSU-57-2 - according to a Polish article [nTW 4/2006], first were bought in early 1970s (now: 1/65).

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Unit 963 EC-635
Armament in slot 2 changed to an additional weapon n. 173 12.7mm MG. Ammo increased as in slot 1

It now appears from pictures that the gun pods are actually carried in pairs. Besides it has occurred to me that the 22 rockets pod might be for dedicated gunships rather than a light armed/recon helo. So far only gunpods and possibly ATGMs have been displayed.

Weapon n. 178 30mm GSh-30
Currently unused it could be overwritten with weapon n.187 4x 80mm S-8 from russian OOB


Unit 962 Mi-17C

-Armament in slots 1-2 changed to weapon n. 35 7.62mm PKMS MMG
-Armament in slots 3-4 changed to the aforementioned S-8 rockets, 10 HE round per slot and the AP rounds deleted.

The above seems the usual armament fit from pictures

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

150 Su-7BMK - earliest date of delivery found in Internet is 1968 (now 1/67), however according to a Polish monograph article on Su-7 [nTW 2/1997], first were delivered in 1972. It could carry 4 x500 kg bombs (now 4x250 kg). Better icon is 2158 - Iraqi Su-7 wore a camouflage (pictures http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/a/271/19/0 )

151 Su-7BMK - usage from 1968 (or 1972) and icon - see above.

152 Su-17MK-4 - should be named Su-22M4 (export version of Soviet Su-17M4). In addition to guided missiles, it can carry 2-4 bombs 250 kg.

154, 155 Su-20 - better picture of Su-20 (although Polish) is 29126 - current one 11152 are later Su-17(22)M3/4, with a "hump" behind a cab.

156 Su-22M-4 - now available from 1/74 - it should be in fact earlier model Su-22M (production of Su-22M-4 started in 1983). I don't know when Iraq received Su-22M, but they were produced and exported from 1979, so 1/79 should be earliest date. In addition to missiles it could carry eg. 2x250kg bombs.

Iraq could also use Su-22M with 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob), used from some 1984 to some 1997.

Su-20s have radio RF, Su-22s - laser RF

251 L-29 Delfin - it's very doubtful, if it could carry 250 kg bombs - according to Czech page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6443 , 2x100 kg.

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Two things

1/ IDK which version of the Iraqi OOB you using because units 154 and 155 use PIC 11119 and have NEVER used PIC 11152. I think you're looking at Polish OOB unit 154. That uses 11152 ( see 2/ )

2/ I have already replaced 1/10th of the photos in the game so comments about a "better picture" generally do not apply ESPECIALLY if the photo is poor quality or looks like it dates back to SP2. In this case 11152 and about 600 others have already been replaced.


Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

...I recall wanted to write "current one AND 11152" :-)

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Perhaps it could carry that much but 4 x 250 is more sensible, as there is question of under what loadout configuration and operational range such 4 x 500 load was possible. If they had to give up the underbelly fuel tanks then it was a non start for most practical applications. Were the outer wing hardpoints rated for 500kg bombs? I vaguely recall this not being the case but I will have to check.


As far as I have read bombs were probably not carried together with Kh-29. The actual load was something like one kh-29, an ECM pod, a drop tank and UB-32 rocket pod used as counterweight of sort.

Same as above except that the missile in question was used operationally very few times, perhaps just once.

This would in fact be the most correct decision as the Kh-28 was pretty much the only ARM used by the iraqi air force for dedicated SEAD missions, even if some others types were on stock. It is however a bit more complicated than that, because of the shortage of weapon slots. I would suggest something along the lines of this:

1) Weapon n. 217 ARMAT ARM overwritten with weapon n. 216 Kh-28 ARM from Russian OOB

2) Unit 167 MIrage F-1EQ overwritten with a clone of unit 156 SU-22M-4 suitably reclassed as class 214 SEAD Aircraft and armed with one Kh-28. It could be renamed SU-22M3 and have vision reduced to zero.

3)Formation 139 SEAD Plane
To be deleted as it currently uses a F-16 armed ARMAT.
The US has been willing to sell Iraq only a fairly limited range of air to ground ordnance: only Maverick missiles, Paveway LGBs, Mk 82 and Mk 84 bombs have been offered/sold. It is a good bet that SEAD weapons are not probably going to be in the cards before 2020

Formation n. 138 is available from 1/1979 to 4/2003. This might warrant some tweaking in the future but it should be good enough for the time being, unless someone has better info.

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

I recall reading once that an F-4 could get off the ground carrying 24 x 500# bombs. And as long as the target was at the far end of the runway it had the operational range with that load to bomb it.

For the most part aircraft carry about half what they are capable of getting off the ground with because they need fuel to get to the target and loiter till they're called in. And getting home after is always nice too.

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

If you want to treat the plane as if it had underbelly fuel tanks, than you're right - outer hardpoints for 6-hardpoint variant could carry 250 kg or so (that would make maximum 2x500 kg and 2x250kg). However, since the aircraft are little effective, they could carry bigger load possible IMHO.

Official Polish chart allows for a configuration 2x Kh-29 and 4 bombs 250-500 kg or 2 bombs and 2 drop tanks.

These missiles (Kh-23) were even lighter, than Kh-29. I don't know however what the practice of arranging armament of Su-22 in Iraq looked like. I only write, that these planes were capable of such load (even not a maximum one) and it's a bit waste to send them with only two missiles. Besides, I probably keep in mind photos of Polish Su-22s carrying missiles and rocket launchers or bombs.

Regards,

Michal

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Garbage in........garbage out.

I hope the rest of the info I've been putting in is better than this. I shall remain hopeful but it partially explains why this goes on and on and on and on....

Anybody else see the problem ??

I've been told to choose 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob) and choose 216 Kh-28 ARM from Russian OOB

Russian weapon #209 is the Kh-27 ARM ....NOT the Kh-28 ARM . Marcello has the correct number ASSUMING were are all talking about the same missile ( which I assume is the Kh-28 and NOT #209 the Kh-27 ARM

And yes, I'm getting just a WEE bit cranky because I've worked though 140 PAGES of "error reports" so far and I'm still not done and I would appreciate CLEAR, checked, not rushed info because I do not want to do this again next year.

OK everyone ???

IS it the Kh-28 ARM from Russian Weapon slot #216 than needs to go into the Iraqi OOB

Yes or No ?

Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

No, it's not "good enough" becasue as Michal wrote...

Given there is only one SEAD aircraft left in the Iraqi OOB after you had me delete or overwrite the rest and it runs 1984 - 1997 then the formation needs to run that as well unless you know of other aircraft the Iraqi used as SEAD that fills the existing formation start and end dates, otherwise that formation has been changed to match the "SU-22M3" 1/84-12/97 unless you have info that the missile was in Iraqi hands to match those previous dates


Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Yes, the Kh-28 was the ARM of choice

I was not planning to raise this issue for this patch as in fact I am not entirely sure about initial availability date. 1984 does not sound too bad but it might have been earlier, like 1982-1983. SIPRI for example lists 1983 for delivery. I have read claims on forums about it being used operationally already in 1982. Hence my comment about leaving the initial formation availability date alone. I was planning to get a book on the iraqi air force which might have the answer but it isn't going to happen very soon.

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

That's the reasonthey switched to the Su-17. Actually more often than not aircraft of this vintage (Mig-21/Su-7) would go in combat with a couple of UB-16 rocket pods, which were as effective in reality as they are in the game: very little.
Many of the comments I found about the 57mm rockets could not be reported in polite company. Yet they were used for lack of anything better.


Actually iraqi configuration was as follows:

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/516/su22m4k201.jpg

Depiction of Su-22 armed with Kh-28 can be founf here but no mention of initial availability date:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_208.shtml

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Thank you.



The adjustment I've made will do for now based on the info we have on that one aircraft but what I am most interested in is when anything, be it tank, rifle or ARM missile is ready to be used operationally . Not when it was unloaded from the boat and not when it was first used in anger but when ( roughly ) it was actually issued so there will always be room for "interpretation" with that but anything within that year is close enough.

With all of this we are at the mercy of "sources" from "experts" who often conflict and if one source claims weapon X was available 1983 and another claims 1985 I'm quite happy making it 1984 but in this case there were big gaps at either end which is why I said the exisitng dates were not good enough. I cannot leave formations open ended.

Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Marcello..... If you have the info PLEASE just provide it and do not make me hunt for it becasue I do not have he time to spare and if you think I can see what it's supposed to be from that illustration, your wrong.

That said it *appears* to indicate ( for game purposes ) one ARM and one UB-32 pod

Don

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Sorry, what the picture shows is the Su-22 configuration when carrying a Kh-29 I was describing earlier: one kh-29, an ECM pod, a drop tank and a UB-32 rocket pod used as counterweight.

The typical configuration when carrying a Kh-28 was a single Kh-28 missile and a targeting pod as depicted in the following drawing.
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7...533withkh2.jpg

Re: Fixes for the iraqi OOB
 

Sorry for confusing weapon slots of Kh-28.

Actually, two Kh-29 could be carried in such configuration (one would cause problems with counterweight anyway), and this is what unit #152 has now. Four bombs could be additionally carried provided there are no ECM nor drop tanks. With such assumptions, there should be no additional weapons indeed.

Michal