Counter-Battery Process?
 

1)Does the Troop Quality rating of a country affect the counter-battery process?

2)Does SPMBT still use the Hidden Artillery Spotting Ratings of countries? I've noticed a difference between nationalities to the counter-battery process or is it just my mind playing tricks on me.

3)If arty ranges are equal,is their a determining factor?

4)Does the rating of your FO/observer having any affect on the counter battery process?

5)Is it as simple as to who's got the better range ratings?

Is there a way of O/M Arty delivering counter-battery to on map Howitzers/mortar in future upgrades? I know I'm asking a lot, but if you don't ask.;)

Thanks in advance!!

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

1) troop experience of the battery is a primary determinant. So if national experience is low, then that nation is poor at CB.

2) The original game had bonuses for "all-American" CB fires. We do not.

3) Gun range must be equal or more to fire CB at the battery.

4) Observers have nothing whatsoever to do with off-map CB fire. It is targeted by the off-map counter battery organisation who are assumed to use the flash and sound ranging systems or whatever.

5) Pretty much range and experience ratings.

6) To fire off-map as on-map counter battery, just plot fires onto the on-map arty (spotted or smoke puffs). Its much easier than in real life to spot on-map arty and mortars.

Andy

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Thanks Andy for your quick answers!!:)

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

I have to say, as the current system is, I find myself never using off-board artillery. If one side has any artillery which is longer range than the other, it's game over. (not really, but you know what I mean)

I wish there was some bonus or way of having some chance of CB even when you are out ranged, at least for 10-20 range units. I know, not exactly realistic but IMO it would help.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Why have your avatar on twice?

seems rather redundant.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

I, on the other hand always have a battery of off-board artillery in my core for campaigns that's used strictly for counter-battery.
Any artillery I buy with support points I use for other stuff.

This is because I tend play battalion size battles and the AI thinks one artillery battalion (regiment if assaulting) per maneuver battalion is typical so I NEED counter-battery or the AI will destroy my forces with artillery alone.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

"NFG" Bear with me while I get my bearings squared away!!:o

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

King of the battlefield, I love using arty!

When using larger maps it's a must have.
O/M rocket arty I find is the best for counter-battery if your nation has it available. (Range&Effect)

I'm all for creeping barrages and for no cluster munitions treaties:D

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Perhaps you didn't get what I was saying. It's not how much you buy, it's that if the other side has artillery with greater range (opponent has range 217 you have 207) you are screwed. He/she can use the artillery without fear for the duration of the battle/campaign.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Yes, I totally agree with you!!
The nation I use doesn't have any O/M rockets:down:

1)Maybe a new Counter-Battery rule/calculation could be that your O/M arty cannot automatically/pass to do a CB mission for at least three turns after they have been assigned a fire/smoke support on map. Maybe it's already in the calculation just not enough of a delay?

2)Can an air strike package target O/M arty? That could be another way of suppressing O/M arty. This could be an assigned mission or happened automatically with a new class of aircraft or with a modified SEAD aircraft.

What do think of these mods to counter-battery? Have these ideas been floated around?

Thanks for replying!!:) I would have never of thought of these possible ideas/solutions:shake:

Thanks in advance!!

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Good point.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

There's when a little pregame investigating of your opponent's forces come's in very handy:)

If your outranged better to chose another force maybe?

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Then the game ends up being who has the force with the longer range off board artillery...
no thanks, I prefer to play without off board artillery and everyone take the country they want.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

It was only a matter of time for a topic so near and dear to my heart (OK, other ones are too.) to be out there and not deserve my one cent (Tough times you know.). Never said I was a tech on the internal software settings of how the game works but from my layman's position and game play against the AI it seems to me that the whole discussion on CB ranges is irrelevant for off map artillery except where it might apply to on map targets or targeting which are different concepts in general.
1. The assumption is made that off map arty then is placed at the extreme edge of it's range therefore it cannot be counter battery fired on by tubes of a lesser range from your opponent, AI or you firing at them because x-arty has a better range then y-arty. Well I guess my 155mm current Thai units must be hitting someone else's 122mm and larger caliber tubes then the AI Chinese opponents they thought they where conducting CB fire missions on. By the same token in the past I've had to make up my losses in my arty units to the same issue of losing them to CB fire to include on one rare occasion from a 105mm Battery, now that's embarrassing because 98% of the time all I use is 155mm or close equivalent depending on the country I'm playing. So if range mattered how can this happen, unless I'm playing a Secret Squirrel version of the game such as TSO 5.5 Rev. A-CB?

2. Arty is generally based on Intelligence, Mission, Support, Target, Targeting, CB and Area Denial (To include AA assets etc.) and or Protection.

3. CB has been around for a couple of hundred years now but saw it's more modern foundation laid in the Civil War with the introduction of the rifled cannon, and has grown only more effective as we "progressed" through WWI and WWII. It pains me to say this but many of the modern tactics used today came from the tactics used by the USMC in the Korean War especially in the defense of the Pusan Perimeter where the targeting grid system was developed, more effective tactics in the use of overlapping fires, CB and the more proficient use of offensive tactical and strategic fire movement techniques.

4. This was discussed in great detail a couple of year ago and provides many official references on the topic that might well be worth a look especially for the newer folks looking in here, I had so much fun with that one.;)

5. I guess I'll never play anyone in a PBEM game I suppose, the reality is if your playing to keep things at a realistic level all elements of the game should be allowed. I guess you could limit things by points, but I still like that "Oh crap where did that come from..." factor the AI still gives at times! And as I've said, though I spend a lot of my time dealing with them but, this is more then a tank game to me, there's enough of them already on the net this certainly doesn't fit that category or else I suspect many like myself wouldn't spend all the time we do with the game other then not playing it as much as we might like to.:(

6. The above of course was just my opion and like an ... everyone has one.:shock: I'll leave you with some food for thought from the USA below and a gift for the CORPS. I need some sleep it's been a tough week.

7. Get past the ref. and read from the source document I think the man is qualified on the topic as taught at Ft. Sill which by way of reminder is the home of "The King of the Battlefield" for the USA and good read on doctrine. The next again is for the CORPS (And everyone else to!) out there with a little CCR to make things right with the world.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Target...e.-a0213232140
http://www.12thmarineartilleryregime...Battery-A.html

See Thread CM arty modeling by IMP, thread page #5 top currently it again is worth while as the refs cover this and other arty issues as well. Also another thread was actually posted a couple of years before this one under a slightly different name.

Regards,
Pat

P.S.
What does the fact that one of these is displayed proudly on my desk and not a sub, John Denvers dad is at the very start and Jimmy Stewart at the end, nothing we or the "enemy" had could catch or shoot at it in it's beginning have to do with this? Nothing I just find it cool and rerelaxing after all it's now "Just another day"-enjoy! And we all just need to BREATHE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx-uZZVc0dE
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND!!

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Sorry-the thread topic mentioned by #4 indirectly and at bottom CM ARTY... of the previous post is located in the TO&E section. My apologies for the over sight.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

The M107 (using the M113 175mm gun) and M110 (using the M201 203mm howitzer) SP artillery both use the same chassis it's merely a matter of which gun (175 or 203) is mounted on it. For practical reasons a given battery will generally stick to one tube or the other.

The last M110 was phased out of USMC inventory in 1991 (they did not participate in Gulf I) as were the reserve M113 gun tubes (last used actively c.a. 1978).

All that said :D

Hard to beat 175's for counter-battery (at least till the advent of rocket assisted shells), then again that's specifically what they were designed for.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

That's what i always do when playing pbem myself,all arty has to be on map.

Good pergame rule to be discussed:)

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

If his CB out-ranges you, it is probably also more expensive. Therefore, not firing yours wastes more of his points than yours as his batteries lie dormant.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Reducing the Atry allowment to no more than 5% of total would be more realistic and make your opponent think twice before buying expensive offmap assets;)

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Probably not the first to bring this up but... any reason why unused Airstrikes can't act as CB? Kinda fixes that "whole longest range wins" thing doesn't it?

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Of course it is possible to alter the game code to allow this. But I don't even want to think of the man-hours it would involve. And that's not even trying to take into consideration how the heck would you implement off-map anti-aircraft?

For my part in the mini campaign I've been working on (forever) I simply bought an HIMARS section and re-labeled it "Ctr Btty Air" and set it's reinforcement turn to 50 (the max allowed). For most scenarios that's longer then the turns the scenario lasts, for the others by turn 50 it has fired all it's ammo doing counter-battery before (well, 95% of the time) turn 50 so the player never gets the ability to lay a rocket cluster munition barrage. Works out pretty well if you ask me :p

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Yes this makes sense to use air strikes to hunt and destroy Arty!.
That is what the Allies(U.S.) did during the Gulf War(1990). Once they had air superiority they went hunting for Iraqi Arty and CB'd with MLRS & Air strikes. The Allies were afraid of the Iraqi arty because they had base bleed ammunition and smooth bore arty with longer range capability. One of the reason's Gerald Bull was assassinated in 1990 for his work on an Iraqi Supergun.

A CB function for air strike formations a player/AI might have in SPMBT would have to occur automatically and would have to pass Air defence interception first. Unless a player/AI had air superiority than they should not be allowed to perform an Air Strike CB mission. To complete a CB mission you would have to intercept all the other sides CAP mission and strategic Air defence.

Maybe their could be 25% dice roll to see if shorter range off-map guns could complete a CB on a longer range guns?

I think Andy & Don would say there are to many what if's and it would not be in the scope/spirit of the original game.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

HEHEHEH

I was thinking about the coding required to pull off my idea while walking to the store.
:doh:
Your plan is definitely best!

My idea would require some stunt like...
1) All Aircraft are assumed range 999 for CB
2) All OM Arty is assumed to have Area SAM for defense
3) Now run SAMs for defense
4) Assuming you aren't dead yet run CB Airstrike
4A) Perhaps some weapons aren't used like HARM or Mavericks

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

I have a feeling we will see first the inclusion of alien races than counter battery performing airplanes.
Actually, I would prefer aliens to that.

Air strike capability simply won't work because I maintain a constant CAP over my off map Arty (At least a squadron of fast movers for every two platoons of Arty.), plus I maintain a STINGER platoon with helo support like equipped protecting each Arty platoon and I have an Area SAM section off map as well with all the previous units thus far mentioned for each arty platoon. Well that's crap and I'd say review your history of battlefield doctrine, expand the size of the arty units and that's about what you had during the Cold War minus the helos. Most studies showed, for what they're worth, that air power during that "projected" conflict except in the initial stage of attack and retaliation would be nullified. So anyway, now that I've spent my off map money in protecting my arty, I guess I can CB yours if I choose to now, after of course I buy my on map equipment, because that would require a software change to have two separate "accounts". I'm sure Andy and Don will get right on that. As has been mentioned you don't want it, don't use it! Limit the spending amount-great! Change your game settings for arty even better. Days like these make me thankful the AI understands the use of combined arms in a tactical situation to achieve a strategic victory if possible at the end of a generated long campaign. Since everyone else is asking for stuff and Christmas is around the corner, could you make the AI a little more intuitive? And please don't forget my off map CAP as I feel I'll be getting into my foxhole soon to prepare for any incoming (Can you slip in a DEEP underground off map bunker :p as well and I'll keep a CAP over it to.).

Aren't you glad there's not too many "bubbleheads" around we can tend to be so...rambunctious well annoying (Or worse would be better.) at times.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Actually from what I know of Gulf I (I was working at the 2nd MarDiv HQ at the time) due to the USAF overall control of air assets it generally took longer to get an airstrike authorized then the window of opportunity for a strike (at least once the Iraqis learned to relocate their artillery 3 or 4 times a day) Air generally hunted targets of opportunity in their assigned "kill box". They did occasionally happen to spot artillery and bomb it. Close air support in the USMC sense was not permitted by USAF doctrine.

For the most part the MLRS (at least the ones assigned to 2nd MarDiv) worked hand-in-hand with the counter-battery radar to get targeting information. Frequently the radar fed the info to the MLRS and it fired a counter-battery barrage while the first Iraqi salvo was still in the air. I spoke to a survivor of one Iraqi 152mm battery and he said they'd keep a running vehicle nearby and yank the lanyard to fire a shell and run to the vehicle then drive like hell to get out of the impact area of the MLRS.

I think Andy & Don may prefer bubbleheads to jarheads at times :soap:

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

I guess that's one of the reasons they were surrendering to closest Allied units. You pull lanyard! No you pull lanyard!!

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

It'd be nice if off map batteries had some random variable in determining how far "off map" they are located. A battery won't always be located at the absolute furthest possible distance from the battle area after all.

Alternatively maybe abstract it by having some sort of penalty to the "experience check" for the unit wishing to perform counter battery, based on difference in range?

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

I might be missing something here but if range was a factor in off map CB fire missions then how could the examples in Post #14 Item #1 have occurred? They represent only a fraction of such occurrences that have happened since I started playing the game through all the patches over the years. And CB is a part of my tactics as I go deeper into my generated campaigns typically consisting of 21 to 23 battles. As noted I have been CB fired on by 105mm off map against my 155mm off may units and have taken hits and returned the favor against larger caliber tubes the AI had. So by logical deduction one of two things is happening
1. Range doesn't matter for CB fire missions or 2. Something isn't working right on my game in the software program.
I know there have to be software parameters set up to "lock in" the off map area and it might be closer then we think because I thought there was a bug fix about 2 to 4 years ago that fixed something affecting the AI off map reinforcements getting destroyed by random planned or arty directed against on map AI units that were close to the edge of the map causing inadvertent damage or destruction to reinforcement units off map in the adjacent hexes at the point of entry, which I've done a handful of times myself by pure dumb luck.

Suhiir-You might be right about the Marine thing, but have you ever had Don raise the surrender flag to you!?! But I really think the last thing Don wants us to do is make it a race to find out which branch is worse!?! We both might want to consider the following then!! Don :fire: and us :hide: !! Seems when the flag was raised I did the same thing must of been that NH-90 helo I put in last years or previous years list for
NEW ZEALAND!?! :doh:

To everyone have a good night!

Regards,
Pat

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

This is a bit difficult to comment on without knowing the specifics, like which 122 mm and 155 mm tubes are in question? There are a number of different guns of those calibers available, with varying ranges.

Even the humble 105 mm pieces come in a number of variants, with differing ranges. For example South African OOB has one with game range of 220. That OOB has also a number of other weapons with quite impressive ranges, even their 120 mm mortars have a range of 205, and some of their 155 mm guns have range of 242!

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

This could all be explained and rationalized easliy,on the size map being used.

Bigger maps need the longer range O/M arty, smaller maps less so perhaps?

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

All I can say is that I prefer to use 155mm arty across any number of countries that have it available and have successfully CB'd the likes of Russia, China, N. Korea, France and others with modern arty systems of larger caliber. I've also never changed the map size, I play whatever is the standard sized map for a generated AI campaign. Again I'm not a tech just an operator. I don't know what more I can add but those are my AI game experiences for several years now with all patches added in the right sequence. Maybe it's that "evil" Windows 7!?! For me it's XP SP3 until support drops out which I heard MS was going to extend until maybe 2015 or just beyond. All I can say is it seems that it works fine to me, if anything maybe the AI should consider it more against off map arty. On map arty CB fire is pretty good as it sits and has no problem going after ALL arty types spotted on map, I've paid the price for not "Scootin" after "Shootin"!! This includes CB on enemy MRLS as well, with the favor returned as well.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Actually those guns were not smoothbores,a dicey proposition for long range artillery, they engage the rifling via small finns in a fashion reminiscent of some mid 19th century rifled guns designs. This made possible to design much more aerodynamic shells.Also "brute force" measures such as more powerful charge and longer barrel were employed.
I am not sure but I suspect that all the talks about coalitions fearing iraqi guns was more some analyst second guessing the matter rather reality. Absent good supporting C&C and reconnaissance they would be unable to exploit the extra range in any seriously effective fashion.

In any case it shoud be noted that US artillery being outranged in terms of pure gun performance is not exactly a novelty.Even the new M777 is still outranged by even such a common and antique weapon as the 130mm M46.

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

I didn't realize they had that kind of range! What kind of CEP do they have at those ranges?

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Are some getting out of touch with reality and forgetting this a game here after all?

It's not the actual ranges in real world and how they should exactly correlate to the game,but what works well with the game,it's getting like beating dead horse now!

Re: Counter-Battery Process?
 

Supposedly it had good accuracy (though it should be noted that with artillery one should think both in terms accuracy and dispersion), it was expected to perform CB missions after all, but I cannot find any source expressing it in terms of probable error.

Mine was an observation on a couple of issues, not on the game mechanics.