Atgm
 

ATGM's are a much more reliable piece of kit to use now.
Was there a mod done to these weapon platforms?
I use to curse at my ATGM (TOW) vehicles for their sup par performance, might as well been throwing rocks.

Depending on your opponent these are actually a viable option now and not wasted points.

Thanks in advance!!

Re: Atgm
 

Read the "Release History" section of the game guide.

Re: Atgm
 

Take the last Leo2 German version. Laugh and laugh and laugh at the enemy missiles. I am not talking about 1-2 missiles. I am talking about 30-40 top of the line missiles (not top attack) against a single tank and nothing happening to it apart from suppression. It brings the fear of god to the opponent. HAHAHAHAHAHA

(though I am usually on the other end, but still, funny)

ATGMs are cool, just not very useful in all cases.

Re: Atgm
 

I didn't find any upgrade info when looking at the release history:doh:

Which release patch in case I can't read?

Thanks in advance!!

Re: Atgm
 

Patch 4.5 21) Missile units with stabiliser can now move a couple of hexes and still have shot(s). Previously any movement disallowed firing.

Is there any other patch that would increase the effectiveness of vehicle ATGM's?

Re: Atgm
 

Ongoing OOB upgrades for one. The addition of top attack and multi-charge missle classes are other reasons they can sometimes work better and the fact that just about everything about the code has been inproved since SP2 is another

Don

Re: Atgm
 

You guys did some good work on improving the mechanics of ATGM's!! I was just curious. If I read the game guide enough times, maybe I'll retain more each time through osmosis.
Thanks for the info!!!

Re: Atgm
 

I'll go to the foot of our stairs - missed that one!

I always thought such units were not worth the bother of purchasing in view of that limitation; I know different now.

Re: Atgm
 

Yes, quite. One poster in a more recent thread said they're like snipers against tanks. A real game-changer.

My question is, if you don't have much arty or tanks with smoke rounds what's the best way to defeat them? Attacking as the Izzies against Syrian and Egyptian Malutka teams or vehicles my high-priced tanks get eaten alive by long-range shots from all directions. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Re: Atgm
 

If you don't have arty or smoke the only way to deal with them is the PBI ( = poor bloody infantry )

Re: Atgm
 

Early ATGM often don't have night fighting capability and they also have a long minimum range (500m or so) whereas your armour usually does have night vision, so fighting at night or low viz conditions (10 or less hexes) if you have the choice (and the vision aids!) can be worthwhile.

ATGM teams usually only have a limited number of rounds - typically 4. A human opponent may replenish them though...

If attacking, lead with little inexpensive tin can scout cars like the ferret or BRDM-2 - the AI may fire at these, whereas a human opponent will set filtering (if sensible). Follow the scout cars with infantry in APC and/or on foot to clear the way for your big tin elephants. Infantry can survive a hit that destroys the ride and continue on foot if lucky.

You armour sits back and shoots from afar then follows up later.

You probably don't want to move the armour at all for the first few turns, unless guaranteed to be out of LOS and missile max range. Let the scouts and then mech crunchies advance for the first 3-4 turns till you get a feel of the ATGM situation. So sit in over-watch or hide them behind an LOS blocker for the first phase of the battle.

If your armour wants or needs to go forwards then use an approach route that gives physical cover, i.e. put a hill, woods or town in between you and where they may be, go through a handy wood etc. ATGM - especially early ones like Saggers - are not too good in close terrain, but are great in wide open steppe or desert. Milan/Spigot type missiles of course remove the problem of close (European say) terrain as they have shorter minimum ranges.

If you locate an area that ATGM are coming from - screen with smoke (indirect or tank gun fired) and/or stonk with arty.

If you are light on arty then use what you have to smoke off your approach, or to barrage likely hiding spots. Choose the area(s) very carefully as your assets are scarce. In this situation you may want to limit the area of armoured operations of your force to a fairly restricted part of the battlefield - not acting spread all over the map providing targets. Only use the space you can screen with your limited arty.

Another weapon that is useful for dealing with ATGM teams (or Jeeps) is the sustained fire MG team. If you have a decent field of fire then have these over-watching the enemy lines to biff up any revealed ATGM teams. 12.7mm HMG are very useful here with a 40 hex range. And they are reasonably cheap. Less use in a choked off European terrain though - but you may still find long lines of sight if e.g. up on a hill top. If they don't have full LOS to the team, or it is just an area of interest - then Z fire the zone with a platoon-load of the beasties. Z-firing HMG at suspected ATGM nests is an entirely valid use of Z-fire that a human opponent in PBEM should accept, IMHO provided you don't go crazy and buy 30 or more MG elements!:D.

Your tanks need to be cautious in the modern era with ATGM about - they should not cavalry charge like a pack of rhinos. That worked in WW2 (but not for tin can Cruiser tanks!:hurt:), but post the 1960s it is not a recommended tactic unless closely following a Soviet-level creeping barrage (the best way to deal with ATGM, frankly!). Advantage swung back in the 80-90s with Chobham, but then the ATGM became bigger or top-attack.

The main way to deal with ATGM though if light on arty is by using caution and your supporting infantry.

Re: Atgm
 

Same principle as ATGuns just harder due to there longer effective range so you need to trail further back letting your infantry lead.
Infantry should at least spot any that fire, if your lucky they can provide the smoke screen.
If you have MGs get them in position otherwise the infantry are going to have to do the job with only long range vehicle support.
In some terrain I will also have a squad accompany the tank. He scouts for it making sure you don't blunder out & pops smoke if you get it wrong.

Re: Atgm
 

Here's something from a CIA report on the '73 Yom Kippur War:

"Antitank Weaponry.
The most effective tank killer in this war was the tank--90 percent of the Arab tanks and at least 75 percent of the Israeli tanks destroyed during the war were hit by enemy tanks.

Antitank missiles such as the Sagger, RPG-7, LAW, and TOW could be countered by appropriate tactics, although they represented a new and dangerous presence on the battlefield."

Re: Atgm
 

Tank-laid smoke. Most tanks carry a fair number of smoke shells; they're not just there for decoration. A platoon of tanks can lay down a smokescreen much faster than your artillery can respond.

Of course this doesn't help against TI/GSR missiles, but that's another story.

Re: Atgm
 

Not sure that's the case anymore & the game reflects this well enough.

First generation ATGMs were more of a bother while modern ones seriously restrict armor movement. Possibly one reason why the likes of small mortars & GL launchers are gaining favour. They are good for supporting attacks against dug in positions & have the range vs ATGMs.

In game terms first generation have an accuracy of 60 or so modern stuff 90, one you have a good chance of avoiding the other not so much.

Russia was not worried about first generation ATGMs but took the threat very seriously when 2nd generation ATGMs were issued in numbers.

Also I seem to remember in Iraq more tanks were killed by Bradleys than Abrams.

Modern ATGMs are a game changer there are not many sides that don't have ATGMs in the later eras but try playing vs a side without them.
If you have a mech formation with say a platoon of tanks you will take minimum losses.
Infantry scouts & fires the odd shot at retreating units.
APC/IFV can give faily close support without worry & are your major killers.
Tanks, set them to only engage infantry above say 400m & they will reserve fire for any armor that shows up.
Now just move forward & clear anything that's not dense terrain because you can now operate as intended.

Re: Atgm
 

Depends really in your case I am thinking Turkey vs Greece battles.
In which case the ATGMs are generally very effective.
From memory Greek modern tank force is composed about only 10% Leo 2s so most tanks are an easy kill as they are Leo 1s & M60 series tanks.

So just set Tukish Milans to engage armour under 70 & they hurt.
Front attacks vs Leo 2s are still worth doing however if the situation requires, hull hit & a bit of luck will cause damage or on rare occasions a kill letting your armor expose its self for the finishing shot so you must be lucky.

Edit I just looked suppose you are talking about Turkish Leo 2T, didn't even realise they had em. Now I have got to see how many but I am guessing not a lot.
From a quick none reliable source both sides have about the same number of Leo 2s

Re: Atgm
 

Not a good time to try this at the moment as this patch several weapons not in the first unit slot tend to lose a shot & not fire if only have 1 shot left.
So if you move the likes of a Bradley the only way to get it to fire is use the W key & fire the ATGM only.
Staying clear of units with missiles in other than the first slot is a good idea till the next patch in general as they only op fire once as well.

Re: Atgm
 

Speaking of that ATGM-problem, is there an early patch or hotfix planned to remedy this?

Re: Atgm
 

I have just tried this in a test scenario, and simply cannot replicate this behaviour. Units with 1 missile or MAW shot or whatever happily fired that shot using the normal F key or target cursor.

So if you can provide a test save game where it is demonstrable, I'd be happy to see it.

Andy

Re: Atgm
 

Scenario 499 switch AI to player 1 human to player 2

Save 25 Saved after vehicles & helos fired all available missiles using F key or cursor.

Note on set up
Targets were modified on both sides, removed weapons & beefed up armor so only killed by missiles.

Other units standard but the second unit in each section had slot 1 turned off

In the case of B0 to B3
BO + B1 standard setup fired 1 missile
B2 slot 1 switched off fired 1 missile
B3 slot 1+2 switched off fired 2 missiles as missile now "main" weapon

Tiger Kvartet
D0 had no need to fire other shot as one shot kill
D1 first fire fired both missiles as did not get a kill with the first
2nd shot only fired one missile despite target surviving.

If you look at ammo load left seems to be missiles fire correctly if they are the first weapon otherwise they DO NOT fire the last shot unless it is selected by the W key.

Pantsyr AA is a good example
HO fired all 3 sams once
H1 fired all 3 sams once then the first sam as its gun was switched off
the other 2 sams did not fire because they only had one shot left.

Re: Atgm
 

OK - I'll check this out.

Re: Atgm
 

Don't know if this helps but I was playing with the editor trying to make a placed demo charge.
Russian OOB I copied weapon 120 demo charge & while fiddling adjusted warhead size to 30.
Replaced demo charge with this weapon (so slot 4) & found it did not z fire.
If I turned off a previous weapon slot however it did which made me wonder if this is tied to warhead size somehow.

Edit ignore that tried putting in weapon slot 3 also & fires that fine.
If I turn off slot 1 or 2 it also z fires slot 4

Re: Atgm
 

Well, IMO the AI buys too many of these atgms like they are cheap and readily availible to all countries all the time ,when in reality not so with 3rd world nations they are very rare, and mostly RPG's.

I think it's rarity issue that needs addressing and players in pbem discussing how many this and if any are allowed or make the cost of them more so much as to be less desirable.

Just my humble two cents.

Re: Atgm
 

ATGM's have ruined my day more than once. I guess it's a good thing. Makes me aware my tanks ain't invincible. More realistic.

I think their so common because they don't require heavy industry to manufacture, plus their probably sold on the black market.

Re: Atgm
 

Its off topic really but certainly the high end ones can be rare, probably due to cost for other than the main players, Javelins for example orders placed by countries are often say 60 launchers & 200 or so missiles. This applies to lots of equipment though APCs tanks etc may be in the OOB but they may only have a company or 2 of them or at least a small percentage of the total force available.
Conversely you could have lots of gear though the quality might be questionable. 20,000 MANPADS in Libya for example.