Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Greetings,

something that kind of bugged me was that there is nearly no reason to ever recruit national commanders that arent mages and that do not have thug potential.
Basically, armies in Dom 3 are commanded by mages, and a splattering of cheap indie commanders that do not compete with valuable mage slots.
I do not have any idea wether the following ideas of improvement are worthwhile, but I would certainly like to hear some feedback:

-Ability Logistican:
--Reduce Supply consumption by a value of X-how many troops he is commanding

-Ability Strategic movement:
--Increase Map Move of commanded units by 1, up to the value of the commander itself. Could perhaps be done by copying and modifiing the effects of the Flying carpet a bit.

-Ability trusted commander:
--Units under his command are more likely to stick to their orders, when doing stuff like attack rear for example

-Ability beloved commander:
--When the commander dies, units under his command go Berserk instead of routing

-Ability Excellent Defense instructor:
--Units under his command get +x defense

-Ability Excellent Offense instructor
--Units under his command get +x offense

-Ability Excellent physical Drillmaster
--Units under his command get +x hitpoints

-Ability Ambusher
--Units under his command get off one shot/Movement+attack prior to the start of the battle, enemies still have to be in range

I am quite doubtfull that this can be implemented (they game does somehow know during a battle who is commanding whom, but I am not sure wether on battle effects can be made in a way to only apply to units under the commanders direct command).

Other ideas:
-Make certain Cap only recruits available outside of the Cap as Commander retinues.
For example, MA Ulm may recruit Black Guards and Black Guard captains at its cap, everywhere else they may recruit a Black Guard captain that comes with a retinue of 5 Black Guards.
This way, in non cap castles, the ability to recruit limited amounts of Cap only units would compete with the ability to recruit mages. This should be done for decent but not game breaking Cap only units, like Guardians, Warriors of the 5 elements etc.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Really, now. High leadership, abilities like standard and supply, durability, lower costs, and cool flavor make a pretty good case for recruiting these commanders.
It's not a starets or a magistrate that is going to lead your armies to victory.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

This reply cracks me up. get off SP bro

regardless, I'm pretty sure not a single one of your "ideas" is moddable so........ cool story i guess?

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

One, maybe two of them are moddable if you stretch what you intended a bit, but they would not cause people to actually recruit them, and at least one of those would be a real cludgy workaround job.

You'd need to totally rebuild how the combat works to make non-mages have any value as a fort build.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Or make commanders recruitable from fort and mages from lab in the same province (so, 2 commanders/turn, or 3 with priests). That's even logical. However, it will affect the balance too much.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Wishing for things that are impossible to mod is pointless.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

There's special sub-forum "Scenarios, Maps and Mods" to discuss mods and what's possible/not possible with mods. Actually there's even more special forum with similar name :) Here I just answered to the TS, how in general it's possible to make non-mages worth buying. I'm perfectly aware that it's not possible with mods. So, sorry, but it's your comment that is pointless in this context.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Logistician-A supply bonus can be modded.

Beloved commander-something approxiating this though the use of one of the shapechange commands that triggers upon death, followed by the Berserkers spell and a kill caster effect. Whether this modding command can trigger #onebattlespell when the unit changes form is something I would have to look into.

Your capital unit being recruited in limited numbers outside the main fort could be modded. Unfortunately, it would make the relevant units appear twice on the capital recruitment screen. Adding a retinue of units to a commander can also be done.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Unfortunately #onebattlespell can't be used like that. :(

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

You could have a commander that autocast one of the area berserking spells or a modded one with no range to get the units around him (don't put him near your mages!). Call the new spell "That one speech from Henry V."

Could the site effect that lets a commander "enter to gain experience," or the item effect for the Champion's Skull be used somehow to let a commander give extra experience to units around him? Probably not, but that's the closest to the instructor ideas I can think of currently in the game.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

What you could do rather easily is lower the leadership value for all mages significantly (or even give them noleader), and give mundane commanders Standard and Supply abilities (of various levels).

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Seeing as how most mages don't have a leadership value higher than 10, I don't see how that would change anything.
Nations with mages that double as good generals are actually meant to have their armies led by mages (Mictlan, Marignon).

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

So most nations buy indie commanders to lead troops... even if you dont, the most common script for a non-mage commander is holdx5, stay behind troops, which is oh so useful

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

This is a terrible idea. #noleader also disables magic and undead leadership.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

I think there are definitely traits on non magic commanders that make them worthwhile. Speed is the first that comes to my mind, as I play lot of MA Man.
In CBM you have the Knight Commander of Avalon with Map Move 3. Nobody can lead an Army of Knights of Avalon as efficient as him. An independant leader would miss one mapmove and the forest survival.

And if you want to do something else than Stay behind troops you have to kit your commanders to be thugs. Give mentioned Knight Commander a Black Steel Full Plate (or a Marble Armor) a Frost Brand, a Vine Shield and a PoL and let him attack rearmost enemy together with his 20 or so superfast Knights. That squad will really deliver a punch!

Or just give him a Thunder Bow. Its cheap and useful.

I don't use lots of them, but I have always 3-5 to lead my knights. And I would even recruit them if they were cap only.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

There are independent commanders who have mm3. The ~55g light cavalry one comes to mind. Which should be reasonably common in MA.

That's way too many gems on a regular pud on a horse though. At best you'd give him a frost brand if you were going to send him into melee. Even fully kitted he's not that hard to kill, so you'd want to minimize your investment.

With the amount of gear you're throwing on him, summoning a bane for 4d and throwing a brand and shield on him would be cheaper, more effective, and have mm3. Of course, at that point you can leave the squad at home.

And most national commanders aren't any better than indie commanders at using a magic bow. The few who have better than 10 precision aren't worth giving up the mage buy for the +1 precision. And they're more expensive than just buying indie scouts to hand bows to.

Cap-only non-mage non-priest commanders ever worth recruiting in dom3: 0

Cap-only priest non-mage commanders ever worth recruiting in dom3: I can think of 1, and 'worth recruiting' is questionable. Fortunately that nation has no cap-only mages. (EA Ermor, H3 mildly tempting. Emphasis on mildly)

Recruit-anywhere national non-mage commanders worth recruiting: There's some national priests that pass muster. And spies and assassins. Some guys with special abilities like Siege Engineers. But guys who actually lead troops... uh... LA TC Khans maybe? Possibly Caelum if you're actually using regular troops and you can't spare a mage commander.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Ah, I guess this noob might learn something in this thread :)

The horse tribe chief still lacks forest survival, so for 25 bucks I get a much tougher guy with forest survival, recuperation and who is a level 1 priest.
I've not played many MP games, but is money that tight? For MA Man?

Leading troops: The Castellan is 10 gp cheaper than the usual indy commander, with leadership 80 instead of 40. Are you implying you never have any fort where you have no money for a mage, so you build one of them? I usually have lots of forts as MA Man. (In fact I don't buy indy commanders nor Castellans but let my mothers with leadership 55 lead those troops most of the time, but thats another point).

Now outfitting thugs, perhaps I can learn most in that field: I am fitting out Lord Wardens similarly to what I mentioned above. You think thats to much on a fragile human commander? I use them as raiding thugs and with some success, not only against noobs. Advantage is they are stealthy.
I don't understand all that about the bane. What makes him so good? You say with a brand and a shield I could leave the squad at home. From stats I would say 10 Knights of Avalon with nothing else would wipe the floor with that bane.
I just checked one of my recent battles with a bane. I admit he had no equipment other than a PoL. He died upon first contact with my knights. I'd guess not more than 4 actually fighting him.
I don't see why they are so high rated as thugs. If I compare them to my Lord Wardens the big advantage is I need no boots of the messenger on them. Other than that they are somewhat stronger and have the chill aura. But I can't use them as raiders, cause they are not stealthy. So why does everybody love banes as thugs?

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

First of all, for raiding you aren't going to be fighting 10 knights, but whatever random PD is. A bane with brand and shield is plenty sufficient for doing so.

Walking and non-stealthy is perfectly acceptable for at least some of your thugs, because they won't be able to protect everywhere with an army. That's why thugs are cheap and spammable - you're trying to avoid serious resistance and simply take lots of provinces.

If you need more mobility, boots of flying gives it to you and the total gem cost is still less than what you're putting on your wardens. Boots of quickness are better if you don't need the mobility.

Banelords are a step up and make good anti-thugs as well. I've watched banelords clobber Vanjarls frequently.

Appropriate shields are vine or gold, although eye shield works for strictly anti-thug duties and there are a couple of others that would be acceptable. But almost any shield can do the job if its just raiding PD.

Bane advantages:
-good armor
-decent hp (20, and more than twice that for banelords)
-0 enc
-chill aura
-CR100/PR100 built in

In addition to their virtues as raiders, they also gear up well for anti-thugging or army support. FR100 can be achieved by using fire brands instead of frost and a dragon helm. SR100 can be achieved via ring or copper plate. Lucky pendant can always be added. 2 logical boot choices exist which increase their effectiveness substantially. None of this is necessary for raiding though, and even in an army support role you'd want to expend as few gems as necessary to achieve your goals.

tldr; people love banes because they're cheap for what they can do.

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Castellans might be cheaper than indie commanders, but you usually build forts until you can spend all your money on mages every turn. And by the time you can't build a mage in every fort, you're no longer using troops the Castellan can lead. Regular leadership loses usefulness as the game goes on for most nations.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

For MA Man, actually, CBM Knights are one of the three recruitable priests. Their temples are cheap, so you put them everywhere. It's not necessarily unlikely that you'll have a province with a fort and a temple but no lab.
I'm more likely to get the Knight Commanders than the friars or castellans, especially in a fort without a lab. Use the Wardens (CBM) as stealthy commander/preachers and the Knight Commanders as troop leaders/preachers/temple builders.

They aren't great thugs, though, except against the AI. Well, maybe the Warden to raid, especially since MA Man has to work to get into death.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

How do you raid with non stealthy units? You'd have to attack front provinces, which are heavily defended. Flying surely helps, but even then I can hunt the raiders down with a handfull of 10 Knight armies. If stealthy, you can just disappear. Even cloudtrapezing or teleporting doesn't get you. Only way for the opponent is seeking arrow, mind hunt and the like. Or guessing the next target. For me stealth is invaluable for raiding. The Lord Warden needs some more gems in equipment, but IMO then he is far superior as raider.
As an army support role the bane needs definitely more equipment, or he dies fast. So the Lord warden even closes the gap in that role.

Perhaps I am wrong with my forts, but I also build forts for protection and for income. And Baalz guide to MA Man says build lots of forts, I hold to that.
Btw: Lots of forts make raiding rather difficult for the opponent.

I always read endgame troops consist of summons and the like and no more regular troops. But what exactly is it, that troops consist of? I did not come to an endgame yet. What will replace my Knights? Or is it only chaff in the endgame, because Evo kills all troops too fast? Is it only chaff, mages, thugs and SC's?

Btw: Thanks for the advice. Though I am not convinced of the bane yet (probably need to see a coulpe in action used properly) theres plenty for me to think about.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

The Knights as thugs are only useful as army support. For me they are there, so I kit them out to deal some extra damage and give them some bodyguards so they don't die.

Lord Wardens are IMO great raiders because of the stealth and them being great fighters for humans. (hp:23!)

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Btw: Quickening Song is just a great addition in CBM, especially in conjunction with the fast Knights of Avalon. You get quickened Knights of Avalon from turn 2. 6 KoA with a mother is a very reasonable expansion party, able to beat most indy provinces. And later in the game many an enemy is takan aback by Knights with 60 AP rushing to their backline the first turn into battle.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Define 'well defended'

In MP players rarely build more than 1 PD unless they're (1) anticipating an army vs. army showdown in that province in the near future (in which case you have no business attacking it with a thug because there's going to be an enemy army there too), (2) random events gave it to them, (3) nation has good enough PD that light (5-6) amounts of it will fend off common cheap remote spells like Call of the Winds.

Even given that, a bane will cheerily eat through 10-20PD with a frost brand and a vine shield against most nations.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Provinces at the front should have an army near, just for the case of raiders or enemy armies. That I mean with well defended. IMO raiding works well as strike and run tactics in the backyard of the enemy, not at the front.

I raise all my PD to 5 when an enemy starts to use Call of the Winds or that Ghoul sending spell. Even for 30 provinces thats only an investment of 450 gp. Well worth for saving the trouble.

Raising all provinces to a level that could stop thug raiders on the other hand is unthinkable.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

10 PD may be quite worth it on occassion too, although it of course depends on the nation. Your size, etc.
However, the simple fact that it is not scriptable makes the vast majority of PD quite useless againt the vast majority of early thugs/raiding detachments.

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Thugs are rarely used by themselves. You don't win a war with thugs alone. If you have an army operating in the area, you can often dictate what your opponent does with their army and slip your thugs around the side.

And thugs have work to do after you force an army confrontation and defeat their army in the field, since you still have a lot of land to claim. They free up your army to go straight to sieging castles and leave the thugs to clean up the rest of the provinces.

Or you might stab someone whose armies are occupied elsewhere.

Yes, having mobile thugs is frequently helpful, but walking thugs definitely have roles they can fill

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

Is it possible to make some national commanders recruitable without a fort? Because nonmage commanders are perfectly useful as they are, it's just that the indy variants are nearly as good without needing the investment of a fort, so all armies get led by swarms of generic indy commanders despite how unthematic it is. Ideally, indy nonmage commanders should be the same as indy mages and troops, recruited for what they offer that nationals don't rather than endlessly spammed.

Maybe make basic national scouts/commanders/priests tied to an event generated site called "successful assimilation" or maybe just make them indy but only recruitable by a single nation like capital recruits. Probably impossible for hardcoded reasons, but hey...

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

This probably/doubtless a misguided remark, and I don't know anything about this subject, but if what you want to do is make it so you'd rather recruit your own non-mage commanders, can't it just be modded simply so that all indie commanders have a leadership of 0?

Re: Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile
 

No indy maps already do that. But there are issues. For one, you'll still never recruit second line troop commanders, scouts, or priests. Nobody is going to recruit a scout over a spy, a basic priest over a priest-mage/high level priest, or the 40/80 troop commanders over the 120s with standard. For another, some nations have legitimate reasons to hire indy commanders. Like LA Marignon, whose national commanders are all squishy low hp guys without shield or armor, and dangerously vulnerable to stray arrows.