Looking at the French OOB, the earliest planes issued with napalm is the F4U-7 Corsair from June 1953.

However, it is very well documented that the largest air strike of the entire French Indochina at Vien Yen, on the 16th of January 1951, directed by Jean de Lattre de Tassigny and using napalm on a large scale for the first time in that war, was a decisive factor in the high losses, breaking and complete rout of the Viet Minh 312th and (especially) 308th divisions.

This does not rhyme really, would you consider changing the date to 1 - 51? Or rather, issuing the Helldiver with Napalm?

I will try and look into which aircraft it actually was that carried the napalm, but it is proving elusive.

I have now looked, and it seems it was the Helldiver. I cannot find anything definite online, but Helldivers carried napalm in the Greek Civil War, and as it is both holiday and my uni library card is closed (I owe them too much money in fines) I can do little more now.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Comment ca va, Palle! I've been reading 'Street Without Joy,' and it seems that most of the strike aircraft used by CEFEO forces were Hellcats and Bearcats. If I remember correctly, Vinh Yen was one of the few battles fought using mobile forces against the Viet Minh in the open. Fall has this to say about that fight -

"All available fighter-bombers in Indochina and transport planes capable of dumping bomb canisters were marshaled into what became the most massive aerial bombardment of the Indochina War."

Were Hellcats and Bearcats not carrier-based fighters as well as the Corsair? I seem to recall that Corsairs were not used very much in 'La Guerre Sale.'

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

22 Dec 50
Napalm is used for the first time in Vietnam against Viet Minh forces at Tien Yen.

1950: France uses napalm against the Viet Mihn at Tien Yen

Supporting link

All of the aircraft in question could have dropped it. I can't find anything that identifies which aircraft(s) did.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Fall was a great writer.

The war in Indochina was largely characterised by improvisations, JU-52 were often used as improvised bombers also, etc.. And it is typical of it that only when America started funding the war did the CEFEO get modern weapons. It is ironic that after the Communists winning the Civil War in China, and especially after they drove the UN forces back in Korea and channeled much of the captured equipment to the Viet Minh, the latter were often better equipped than the CEFEO.

scJAZZ, there is a typo involved there. Vien Yen and Tien Yen is the same place, but the battle raged from the 13th Jan 1951 to the 18th Jan 1951 (IIRC it was the 18th, but in reality it was over with the massacre on the 16th). Napalm was used before, but only late in 1950 and only in small quantities.

This is one battle where I do not envy the Viet Minh, going up against two entrenched Groupement Mobiles consisting of legionnairres with a third in reserve. Giap was good at guerrilla, in fact he was brilliant at it. But "normal" warfare he was far surpassed by the French and man for man, the core of the French troops were much better than even the Chu luc. And de Lattre de Tassigny was a special kind of soldier.

Anyway, yes Helldivers, Hellcats and Bearcats were carrier-based. The ones from Arromanches earned immortal fame for their courage and recklessness in support of Dien Bien Phu. Often flying at only a few meters height while strafing the Viets. The garission noted a lack of the same daredevil dedication from the airforce. But then again, carrier pilots were always a special breed.

Merry XMas BTW.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

I don't know if it is a typo or one of the immortal transliterating Asian languages into roman alphabets things. But the repeated data shows 22/12/1950 as the first uses of napalm and nothing at all refutes that from what I found. However a napalm bomb is a bomb like any other bomb and every aircraft mentioned could have tossed one. I'd tend to the December '50 date for certainty. Every source I've seen repeatedly mentions that date for the FIRST use.

Merry xmas

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

What I mean is the Battle at Vien Yen/Tien Yen was not fought at that date, it was fought at the time I stated. Hence the info is not reliable.

That being said, a first date of 22/12 is not unrealistic, but the first use in mass, and with very measurable effects was at Vien Yen/Tien Yen. There were thousands of burned corpses in front of the French barbed wire.

In any case 12/50 or 1/51 matters not that much. What one wonders is that they waited that long.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

I do not know if it is the Google Sound Chamber or otherwise but from what I have read 12/50 seems to be the date that ANY reasonable aircraft should have had napalm available. Not 1953 which seems to be a reference to France getting the Corsairs and the Corsairs being napalm capable.

Edit: Hellcats, Bearcats, Helldivers also being able to drop the same napalm canisters.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

That Sir, I suspect is true.

But only Andy or Don can tell. I have already created my own Helldiver with Napalm, available from Jan 1951 ;-)

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

For all intents and purposes napalm is just another bomb. Anything that can carry a bomb can carry it. That said it's obviously best used by low-level attack craft rather then traditional bombers.
It would be more a question of "When did they get napalm to drop?" then "When did they get Corsairs?"

I suspect they bought left-over US stuff then eventually made their own once they realized how useful it was in jungles.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Actually, they more or less got in theater leftovers from Korea. OMFG it has a prop. Give it to the French in exchange for wine! :D

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

To add my two cents; I've also found several references to a "battle" in Dec. 1950 but as noted a month doesn't matter. What does is a year or two discrepancy as to when it was fielded by the French in the game. At Jan 1951 the case can be made for a change and the following refs will support your claim as to the planes that carried it for the French. I have other obligations to the "Boss" if he has time for them in Feb. so I can't take this on as noted already until the 2012/2013 campaign begins at the earliest. For the french wings site you might need to use the translator for the English version also for the Dien Bien Phu folks see the photo section and you'll know which one got my attention for the scenario.

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/frcoin.html
http://www.ffaa.net/history/wars-ope.../indochina.htm
http://www.aircraftcarrier.name/fran...hes/index.html
http://www.frenchwings.net/
http://www.frenchwings.net/indochina/gallery/index.php

I hear a noise on my roof, I better get to bed!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Ha ha ha ha.
The Indochina War is an intriguing study and struggle. Anyone thinking the French do not know war, should study it a bit.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

I just notice, there is an A-26 and an Ouregan available from 1952 with Napalm, yet that is still not 1951 and I do not think that the French deployed any jets to Indochina. I only ever heard of props there. It is as if the effort there was second priority and only got second-hand equipment.

The A-26 is a very nice tactical bomber though, if there is one thing the Americans are good at, it is airpower.


On a similar note, I cannot see French halftracks in the oob for that period; yet they were used in Indochina (though amphibs were more important of course). Am I overlooking something?

And lastly, on a less serious note. The French deployed two armoured trains to Indochina. Is it possible to model them in a game such as this? If so I will have to do it myself, just for the fun of it.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Another question:
The French puppet state in S. Vietnam has support ships available, but the mgs can only fire forwards. I would think they would be in swivel mounts and be able to fire 360 degrees? As it is their use is thus limited.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

I would've thought the French sourced references would've answered your questions, I see not. So for the French absolutely no jets and from the book I own HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE The Siege of Dien Bien Phu by Bernard B. Fall I will present only the fighters and bombers portion from Appendix C: The Role of Airpower page 485 of this great book;
Fighters
Fighter Group 1/22 "Saintonge"}
Fighter Group 2/22 "Languedoc"} F8F Bearcats (U.S)
3rd Carrier Assault Flotilla SB-2C Helldivers (U.S.)
(On Arromanches until April 30)
11th Carrier Fighter Flotilla F6F Hellcats (U.S.)
(On Arromanches until April 30)
14th Carrier Fighter Flotilla 18 F4U Corsairs (U.S.)
(On Belleau Wood, replacing
decimated 11th Flotilla on May 1)

Bombers
Bomber Group 1/25 "Tunisie" B-26 Marauders (U.S)
28th Bomber Flotilla (French Navy) PB4Y2 Privateers (U.S)
It continues on in order to list Transports, Recon, Lia. & Med Evac, Civilian and Additional transports flown.

At that battle 6 Bearcats actually provided close air support from the airfield there until it was rendered unusable and to the armor question it appears only two CHAFFEE tanks were there both having been flown in crated with final assembly done on site. What in the end killed the French in regards to air power was just the total lack of it especially in transport resupply capability. This mistake among others would not be repeated again in Algeria.
So this answers Jets-No Corsairs-yes but, only after the U.S. was finished with them near the end of a little war we were in, The Korean War. Or you can refer back to Post #11 ;)

Regards,
Pat

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Hey Pat.

There were 12 "Bisons" from Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny's old Regiment, not two, at DBP. Only two or three still functioned at the surrender though.

As for the support boat (this should interest you). In 1946-47, the French rebuilt some captured German S-Boots to use at river patrols.
The changes were:
-Strenghtened bow
-Closed torp tubes and remove torps.
-Adding a twin mg at the front and two Bofors on the middle and back, all in swivel mounts.
So the French did have better support craft available than those in game- I always liked the S-Boots.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Fastboat Tough,

Would it be safe to say that the changes needed are to add a napalm carrying variant of Helldiver, Hellcat and Bearcat available from Jan '51 until the aircraft is no longer in use? Corsairs are already covered which is what brought this subject up to start. Invaders could have dropped Napalm as well as C-47 transports which apparently they were using to throw Napalm over the side but for SPMBT purposes somehow I don't think that needs modelling.

If this is in fact the case I wouldn't mind helping. Or since I'm new at this I could just go sit in the corner and watch the masters at work :)

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

I have already added a napalm-carrying Helldiver to my own French OOB from 1-51. However, I am too nub to upload it for all to use. Sorry. The few others who will want the change before it is implemented must by necessity do it themselves; which is dead easy.


I have another question though, how do I add the S-Boot pic and Icon from SPWW2 to the SPMBT files so I can add those fast river patrols? As it is, I use the American MTB pic and Icon and though it works, it is not accurate.

Thanks.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

scJazz,
Yes to all; would in addition add A-26 INVADER and P-63C KING COBRA though it needs an end date to be sure first it would however support the bomb load though.

Though not an expert and I don't and do not want to get into the mechanics of the game for "building" anything, wouldn't it be easier for the DIEN BIEN PHU scenario and such if it was built as a campaign of each specific battle within the "battle" if you will? It seems game play would be smoother and take less time to develop to an end result.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

The P-63's were withdrawn from service in 1951.

Don

So Pat did you miss the four that are already in the French OOB ??

Two of them are carrying Napalm and given the first SEVEN were only delivered to France in July of 1951 the March 1952 operational start date is quite reasonable and those were the only SEVEN available until SEVEN more were acquired in 1953.

???



Don

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Don, I was about to say that, if in less hard words ;-)

Pat, I know we all want Dien Bien Phu as a campaign- I just do not think it feasible. How are we going to cram even the 4500 actual fighting men into one? If done it would have to be a series of campaigns depicting the different sectors. Which again would leave less leeway to improve on one or the other side's performance. But what I am talking about is the CEFEO in general during that very fascinating conflict, and pointing out the disrepancies between game and actual history that I stumble on; to help Don and Andy remedy them.

So, in summary Don; will you consider the following changes:
-French bombers/Fighter-Bombers can carry napalm from 1/51?
-Including the "Dinassaut" (French Riverrine forces)- or at least some of them (they were apparently- and logically- extensive)?

And just humour me and let me know whether one can actually build and deploy an armoured train?

Thanks.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

It's getting old people commenting on things the game should have when they are already in the game and long time players should know that.

Yes, there will be Napalm armed aircraft for the French in 1951 and as well the Helldiver start and end dates will be changed as they were not available until 1951 and the P-63 will be added as well.

As for armoured trains........ I guess I should consider myself lucky this only pops up now and then but we've already said this will NEVER happen and I will add I cannot think anything that would waste more time and resources more than frigging armoured trains.

Don

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Thanks Don. As part of the Europa Barbarorum modding team, if I may presume to advice to just tell them "It is already there, *smiles overbearingly". It is equally embarrassing, but less harsh. Anyways, not my job to tell you how to run your forum...


And yes armoured trains were a waste of resources, so were the Maus, Carl, Dora, etc... Curiosities like that happen in war, and I suspect they were useful for guarding railway tracks in a guerrilla. But not for much else. Thanks for the reply, it is a curiosity that would be fun to try. I was not asking for them in the game, but whether I could make one myself.

I have another question (I am full of them- characteristic of a nub). At DBP the Quad-Fifties made a crucial difference at one point. Yet I cannot find them in the oob. Am I blind or are they not there?

If you load an OOB then click on FILE then "Database check utilities" then do a search for the weapon you will usually find what you are looking for . In this case "quad" finds you weapon 61 and when you check the users of weapons 61 you will find it's used by unit 450 the M16.

So YES there are Quad-Fifties in the French OOB mounted on halftracks and available to beat off hordes of Viet Minh and since you did not specify how you wanted them mounted I can confidently say yes, they are in the OOB.

Here's some happyfaces :):):):):)

I wouldn't want anyone thinking that answer was "too harsh"


:)

So.. were they available as ground mounts as well ??? If yes, I will add them.

Don

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

A quick google images search on "dien bien phu gun" brought this up:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/military-hist...craft-gun.html

Cheers
Andy

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

LOL Don... *chuckles. Happiness is very important. Poor pat got all frightened ;-)

In any case, yes I meant ground mounted. My bad for neglecting to point that out. I thought that as I did not say M16, you would know I meant ground mounted. But how can you read my thoughts to know what I mean when others are less stickler-ish and I too, often get sloppy?

But yes, there were 4 (IIRC) Quad Fifties at Dien Bien Phu. Martin Windrow they were M45C Maxson skeleton type, with M18 reflex AA sight, mounted on a M20 one-ton two wheel trailer, the combination designated M55. Windrow claims that they were prepared for indirect fire at the south of the airstrip. However, at Epervier; the location I am familiar with them from, they were used to mow down a Viet Minh Mass assault on the Bailey Bridge together with 4 105 mm Howizers firing directly at the enemy over sights at point blank range. There is a picture of one of them here and on a Hanoi Museum here.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

......and now they are in the French OOB.


Don

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Thanks :-D

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Don,
Simply no; was just answering the questions directly from the refs I provided. To the others just "threw that out there" about a campaign approach, as I indicated I have no desire to get into the technical aspects of the game or design. I simply look at it from the operator level which just offers a different perspective and hopefully insight into the workings of the game. As I was involved in a Navy project on a Submarine WSM it was my job along with a handful of others to evaluate the operability and real world usefulness of the software that was meant to be helpful and developed in a lab. Submarines, Ships, MPA and associated systems don't operate in a lab. This I hope will help some to better understand where my "head is at" when it comes to some of the issues I've brought up or have supported and have been supported on (Thank You!). The approach might be different and sometimes confusing but, what is important here is that the end result for everyone is that the game gets better for all as much as is possible within the architecture of it. Anyway enough said :shock:, I need some rack.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Speaking of France, here are my notes:

#005 AMX-13 - is there a difference from 001 unit?... There might be more SD shots for all AMX-13s, since it had 4 tubes, but carried 12 smoke grenades in all (according to 1967 Armour in Profile No.12 book)

#008, 009 AMX-13/SS-11 - according to Armour in Profile, their ammunition for gun was lowered - 33 rounds.

#045, 46 AMX-105/50 - there are known photos with AAT AAMG http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...=681&Itemid=36
I don't know if it was standard.

#064 SAS Jeep - better picture might be 36033 or 36867

#073 Panhard EBR 51 - proper pic is 6560 (early model with FL-11 turret)

#075 Ferret Mk 1 - I don't know how about Mk 1, but the French for sure used Mk 2/3 turreted version (there is a photo from Algeria from 1964).

#086, 087 M3A1Halftrack - better pic is 56805 (M3A1 with gun ring). There should be space in name. BTW, icon 538 should have a ring on a right side, I think.

#089 AMX VCI - better picture for 12.7 AAMG is 6088

#091 AMX VCI - correct picture for 7.5mm CMG (turret) is 6059

#81, 107 Jeep - French Jeeps (mostly Hotchkiss M201) carried 7.7mm AA52 MG as a standard (introduced in the 1950s).

#108 Delahaye - precise name of this Jeep-like vehicle is VLR-D, but it was produced only from 1951 (according to Military jeep: 1940 onwards book). Production ceased around 1956, so they were probably used a bit longer (now: 1/46-12/57).

#112, 315, 383 Bazooka Team - proper picture for Super Bazooka M20 is 23550

#113 57mm RCL - correct pic is 9074 or 12072. Current is 75mm M20 (used in the game mostly as M40)

#160, 161, 218-220, 904, 971 all Rafale should have picture 6159 (they have Mirage III now)

#165 B-26 Marauder - correct pic is 9193 (now it's Invader)

#173, 174 T6G Tomcat - correct pic is 9143 (T-6 Harvard, now it's T-28)

#181 F-84F - correct pic is 9134 (now it's F-84G)

#221 F-8E Crusader - I've proposed a picture of the French F-8, eg. 010.

#222 Junker - is the name correct?..

#278, 279 Goumiers, 284 Eclaireurs moi, 285 Native Scouts - proper pic for .303 Lee Enfield is 7096

#291 Armoured Truck - better picture seems 64534

#316 57mm RCL - as #113

#384, 402 Alpine Inf-AT - picture used for LRAC is 6117

#439, 440 VTT PM 81mm, 120mm - better pic for SP-mortars with external 12.7mm is 6088

#469 2.5 Ton GMC - proper pic for GMS is 23578

#481-487 H34 Pirate - better picture of specifically French H-34 is 6483

#511-512 SA 116 Pirate, WW SA 116 - I couldn't find "SA 116" designation in the Web. H-34 Pirate might be safer?..


Formations:
#005 AMX13/SS11 Pl - according to Armour in profile no.12, there were four AMX-13/SS11 in a platoon.

Regards
Michal

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Michal, I can answer one question. But have another...

Junker is (almost) spelled correct, it is the old "Auntie JU" of WWII fame; the Junkers JU-52. It was all the air transport the French had available in the early post-war years before America started to percieve the Indochina War as a part of the global struggle against Communism and support it instead of merely a colonial struggle to maintain overlordship.

I am pretty certain the last combat jump from Junkers JU-52 was "Operation Tulipe", the first phase of the Battle for Hoa Binh where the 1er BEP jumped near Cho Ben on 10th November 1951. And I think that perhaps it would be suitable with an end date for the Junkers of 12-51? Don? Andy?

Meanwhile, in your exhaustive list (GJ) you write: What source is this? I am pretty certain that the last French units left Algeria in 1962 as the French government (De Gaulle) granted Algeria independence from 1962 and the nature of the war had left the French rather unpopular in those quarters. It was, after all, a pretty nasty affair... Actually very nasty. You would have to look at Russia in Chechnya to find something worse.

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

It is in Simon Dunstan "British armoured cars since 1945". A description is "...a member of the 1er Regiment de Cuirassiers consults a map during a patrol in Algeria during 1964". Year of course might be mistake.

Regards
Michal

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

And which is off-topic for the thread really.

If you have complaints about a particular OOB in general then you really should in future open a new thread for that specific purpose.

It makes our keeping track of any such error reports much easier than having to recall that it was actually buried inside this thread on a related subject as an aside...:eek:

Andy

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Yes it would have been better as it's own thread but I have them now so please no not post a second time

Don

Re: Question about Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient, French Indoch
 

Right - I just thought on corrections to the French OOB while reading this thread... Thanks for keeping attention.

Michal