"An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

While digging around for info I came across this quote on the net....

"An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks would have devastated the Iraqis......."

So I thought ..OK, lets test that theory but for obvious reason I do not have the time.

Attached as a modified Tutorial scenario with the Abrams replaced by M48's. Let me know how that works out. :)

Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

---- USA --- Iraq
Men....1......212
Art......0.........0
SV......0.........2
APC....0........2
AFV....1.......46
Score
USA = 9218
Iraq = 285

M-48
3 x SO-152
1 x BRDM-2
4 x T-55
1 x T-72
Most of the Infantry

M-48 hit rate vs vehicles while stationary or slow moving was about 15% till they got within 150m of targets (3 of their 4 T-55s were killed the last turn of the game)

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Against the AI it's a massacre. American firepower and 40 vis units still rule the battlefield.

Most Iraqi units were killed in their forming up point by Air and Arty.


http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/4628/yeehaw.png

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

I'd more say the TOW/Hellfire rule.
While the vision DOES help the range, accuracy, and sheer number of ATGM launchers make it a classic turkey shoot.

The one M-48 I lost was to an RPG while they were mowing down infantry.

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Well, I did give them the DU ammo version... :)


Yeah I figured given everything else in that tutorial it might not make all that much difference. You could probably win without the tanks at all


Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

:D

I love it..... Iraq zero. I cannot even say that's the score to beat! The Swedish Scythe strikes again. :)

Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

OK, I see some need a bigger challenge. :D

Try this for fun.

M48's and no air support.

Have a nice day........

Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

If all you did was delete the A-10s see my earlier battle results.
Nor did I use the 155's.

I haven't played the tutorial for years and held back the 155's and A-10's waiting for an off-board Soviet WW II style artillery division to open fire or an on-board mortar regiment or five.
By the time I realized neither was going to happen I was too close to the objective (and end of the scenario) to use either.

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

......it's not the tutorial. "Feint Attack" is a completely different scenario

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Ahhhh !
*downloads*

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

I did play it cautiosly, hiding behind smoke during the advance.
I was lucky though, one AH-64 took some ZSU fire when I popped up some to have a look-see...,bit risky, but the ZSU didn't hit. Zapped the AA with Mavericks and let the arty get to work. I used M-48s mainly against the infantry wave, although they did bag one M55 and one T72 (head on from close range). Cautious advance cost me time though, I did not have enough turns to finish off all the Iraqi units. Suhiir had a greater number of kills than me.

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Still, zero points for the AI is quite an accomplishment and something neither Andy nor I have seen before.



Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

:D

This one was trickier...:)

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8855/yeehawii.png

BRDM-2 Sagger's managed to get a Bradley and shoot down one of my choppers. I lost another chopper to AAMG fire and had a third retreat off the map after taking light damage. Had one Bradley get stuck in the wadi and one take some damage from a 100mm hit. Almost ran out of time. Had to load an ATGM team into my last remaining helicopter to get the flag in the far right corner of the battlefield.

:cool:

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

---- USA --- Iraq
Men...29......336
Art......0.........8
SV......1.........0
APC....1........0
AFV....2.......26
Score
USA = 4150
Iraq = 960
Marginal Victory

Scenario end
HQ (which was immobilized) Destroyed by last Iraqi mortar barrage
1 x OH-53 damaged
1 x M728 CEV put in for silver stars (and new ear drums) as they had been hit at least 6 times by T-55s before a T-62 nailed them
1 x Vulcan immobilized
3 x Bradly immobilized
2 x M-48A5 immobilized

Iraqi mortars destroyed by Bradley s firing MGs as they were out of 25mm
Most still mobile US vehicles were down to MGs only at end of scenario
Last Iraqi VP hex seized last turn of game by Bradley

Use of fire filters was a MAJOR factor in being able to complete this scenario. I set my units to fire only point-blank (250m) range with anything but TOWs, as firing at distant dug-in positions is nothing but a waste of ammo.
Most Iraqi armor/fortifications fell to TOWs as the dug-in Iraqis were virtually impossible to hit or suppress by anything but artillery/TOWs.

I believe the only vehicles the M-48 got was 1 x T-55 and 1 x BRDM-2.

Recommendations:
Court martial the idiot that sent armor/Bradley s with virtually no infantry support into the worst possible tank terrain vs a well dug-in and camouflaged position.
The ONLY thing that allowed even a marginal success was lack of Iraqi fire discipline, they fired as soon as our units were spotted and often at extreme range.

I note Wulfir did far better in this battle then I did. :up: :up: :up:

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Interesting, in my game most hard targers were taken out by the M-48s or artillery. Bradley TOW knocked out one bunker and a T-55, IIRC.

Progress in the wadi was slow, and a bit risky because of the mines. I never made it to the Iraqi mortar positions, though I targeted them with 155mm HE....

:)

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

So it would appear the original comment that sparked this experiment was fairly accurate. Third string armour will accomplish what needs to be done against the Iraqis( with a little help....).

I trust though that the second scenario was at least a decent challenge and from the comments it shows that with this game, there is always more than one way to accomplish the mission


Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Probably..., but against a human opponent, not neccessarily. There are some really good, very experienced players out there.

:)

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

For the most part my M-48's had like a 15% hit probability displayed when I selected a potential target (due to range, movement, and mostly the Iraqi's being dug-in lick ticks). That BRDM-2 was taken out by just such a low probability shot because it HAD to be at least suppressed, I got lucky. Mostly the M-48's fired (semi-intentional) suppressive fire since they couldn't actually hit anything.

Most of the stuff I got immobilized was when they entered rough terrain as their final stopping place for a given turn, wanted the rough terrain defensive modifier. I long ago learned there (seems) be be at least a 25% probability of being immobilized in rough/swamp terrain, jumping to (apparently) 50% if you add a slope, so I avoid such terrain like the plague it is whenever possible.

I pounded on the trenches with the 155's, as the first 3 turns of Iraqi mortar fire was way off target. Tho in the end ignoring them bit me when they killed my HQ.

And I agree that vs a human opponent that scenario would probably be un-winnable, mostly because they'd be likely to adjust the firing range of their units to wait for a better shot rather then waste ammo firing on sight.

Try "73 Easting" with M-48's and you probably won't get far.

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

I used smoke to hide behind. That would be dangerous against a human opponent who could mass Z-fire into the wadi, and like you said would adjust his arty assests better.

I doubt 12 turns is enough against an experienced player to really make use of the superiority in US kit and support.

I had only one mobility kill, due to volcanic ash.

Think I'll try the '73 easting setup, or similar. hmmm :up:

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

One nice thing about ScenHack is substituting a unit like that is simple.

Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Ok, just for laughs - I started a small generated campaign...:)

US Army vs Iraq,
Feb-March, 1987
10 battles
Starting core of 5000 battle pts.
I will use only computer generated scenarios, no editing of number of turns, VH locations etc (being a bit lazy).

World War III has broken out in Europe. The Western Powers, spearheaded by the USA launch an offensive in the Middle East, one operation is against Iraq having sided with the Eastern Block. Most of the deployed western units are reserve formations, one such unit is the 81st Armoured Brigade (seperate), fielding mostly older equippment it arrives on the battlefield somewhat understrength...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_Insignia.svg
81st Brigade, Washington Army National Guard...

Task Force Whulff:

TF HQ Element
Bn HQ
Forward Observer (leg)
Humwee Section

TF Recon Platoon
Patrol (3 Scout Teams)
Recon Humwee Element (6 Humwees, 3 of them armed with Mk19)

Alpha Company
Tank Company (7 M48A5 Patton tanks)

Bravo Company
Tank Company (7 M48A5 Patton tanks)

TF Support Element
Mortar Battery (4 81mm Mortar sections, 4 trucks)
AT-Platoon (2 TOW Jeeps)
Mech Pioneer Platoon (3 Eng Squads, 3 M113 tracks)
Supply Platoon (2 ammo trucks)
Medical section (1 truck)
MP Platoon (.50 HMG, Sniper, Humwee)


Now let's see what those M-48A5s can do...

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Done this for you hope it helps
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48276

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

First battle done...

The map generated was hilly with a lot of rough terrain.
View distance 17, my Aux inlcuded a leg National Guard Rifle Co(-), a scout Helo and two 90mm RR teams. No strike elements or other arty.

The M-48A5 tanks can deal with T-72s at a reasonable distance, but won't stand up to much punishment from the Russian 125mm guns.
I lost two M-48s on a hill to Iraqi tank fire, and one was ambushed by some die hard enemy infantry with RPG-7s. Lost two M113 to 122mm artillery. I opted for the hardest repair setting, might not be able to fix all the damaged stuff...

In this scenario the hardest fighting ended up being inf vs inf around three VHs located in what seems to be a stony, dry, riverbed...

:)

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

second battle done...

Reparied my damaged units, and added a National Guard Mech Co(-) (HQ and two platoons)...

Assault mission,
the map generated was again hilly, with quite a lot of rough terrain and no roads. Republican Guard infantry and T72s were dug in, mostly behind a stream I had to cross..., 26 turns.

Purchased mostly Air and Arty for support, along with some engineer capability...

The sneaky AI played like a real Iraqi. I encountered mined VH flags and the AI kept pounding my advance element with arty and mortars. Lost quite a few units..., including all but one of the Recon Plt Humwee's..., and two M-48 tanks killed..., with two more damaged. The recently added National Guard Company(-) took a lot of losses, squads heavily reduced and 3 M113 lost.

I did not manage to capture all VHs..., here Abrams tanks would have been much welcomed! :)

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Maybe the comment should have been ....."An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks could beat the Iraqis but casualties would have been MUCH higher"

The thing is.... it's a game, and if this experiment produces challenges then that's "a good thing" (tm)

Don

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Indeed. I like the games that become a bit of a struggle...

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

third battle done...

meeting engagement,
visability 24, turns 17..

Refitted the core and added a SP-arty battery (M109).
Bought air strikes for the aux pts.

The low visability helped greatly, lost no tanks, but some infanterymen and a M113 to a lucky artillery hit. Most of the enemy tank fleet were T72s and all but three were killed by M-48s.
Failed to take the last VH...


I would say that the M48A5 does the trick vs the Iraqis.
Low visability helps when faced with dangerous kit like the T72, Sagger and RPG teams...

:)

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

You could try with M-48A3's :mean:

Re: "An army equipped with vintage M-48 tanks ......"
 

Unfortunately, the Iraqi RG units did not follow the example of the Egyptians in the '73 war at the Chinese Farm where Egyptian tank hunter/killer teams ambushed Israeli tanks with a devastating swarm of Sagger anti-tank missiles, Israel had just suffered its' worst defeat at the hands of the Arabs. History may show that the Tawakalna Mechanized Division of the RGFC should not have stood and fought straight up, but instead used the example of the Egyptians at the Chinese Farm.

What I've been able to read is that the RPFC units did not properly prepare for the Coalition attack as they had in the war with Iran. Maybe because their commanders did not fully appreciate maneuver warfare, with it's speed, depth, and audacity, they did not bury their tanks up to the turrents, lay sufficient mines and barb wire as an example.
source: http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/ar...p/t-13712.html.

So, it is true an Army with M48's would have mopped up the Iraqi units. But an Iraqi force deployed in proper defensive positions with hunter/killer teams of ATGMs may have put a very big bite in the 2d ACR.