USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

USMC begins to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR (HK 416) starting Nov 2011

Each company in the infantry battalions will receive 28 M27s, one for every SAW gunner and one extra to remain organic to the unit. These companies will also retain six M249s to give commanders more firepower if necessary.
The LAI (LAV) battalion will receive 14 M27s per company and will not retain any M249s.
The Corps plans on buying 4,476 M27s and reducing its number of M249s from 10,000 to approximately 8,000.

Marine Corps Times
Marine Corps Gazette
H&K

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

Oh goody, there's only about 3 dozen+ units affected......


Got a time frame on this ?? starting Nov 2011>>>>>>> ???


Don

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

Starting Nov 2011
Probably won't have enough delivered till say July 2012 for it to be Crops wide.

The "fun" never stops!

Probably about same stats as current M16A2 (2) LMG (Weapon #26) with HEK=5 instead of 6.

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

That weapon is already in the Dutch and Norwegian OOB's. I'll review the rating but it's not a great replacement for the 249

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

Sort of depends how one intends to use it.
Every Rifle Platoon has 2 x MMG attached 90% of the time. As an assault weapon it's probably better then the M249, at the very least more portable. As an LMG replacement, yea it lacks.



"But accuracy seems to be the key to the M27's effectiveness, Clark said. The auto rifle is already showing signs that it could to be twice as accurate as the Marine M16A4.

Gunners shooting the M27 have been getting first-round hits on targets beyond 300 meters much more consistently than they have in the past with the M249"

M249 vs M27

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

And the gun is only as good as the the one who wields it.

Suspecting training time to get profcient should be a factor also.

And what is that 1-2 years?;)

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

2 weeks actually.
Week 1 - Weapon familiarization, how to use the sights, how to get into the firing positions (offhand, kneeling, sitting. prone).
Week 2 - Live fire for 4 days then qualification (200/300/500m). About 95% qualify, those that don't get one more chance then they're gone.

:angel

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

I think you are a bit too optimistic.

Training deals with the red tape training manuals and the ones that have to read those gibbish and train others ect.

Have the Marines decided to go with this or is there bickering on whether the saw M249 is just as good without spending millions more?.

Knowing the slow implemation of new weapons and cutbacks on budgets I'd say 1 year is reasonable for this game at least maybe, just my opinion however:)

Yes M27 IAR (2) ( I'm aiming to change the way (2) weapons are named in all OOB's to make finding singles and doubles easier ) would be HEK=5. However, becasue it's being used as a SAW/LMG I'm considering applying the same accuracy forumula that other LMG's get which would bring the accuracy to 19 which closer approximates the firearms function

Full Auto and closed bolt eh ? Interesting ( might be after a long firefight....) at 28 RPM in temperatures over 100 F they really are counting on accuracy. Every SAW gunner is going to need sniper training...

Don

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

They've been in use (1 test battalion per division) for a couple years now. In Nov 2011 they began Corps-wide replacement of M249's at squad level with them.

Yes, overall training takes a couple years, mostly learning how what you've been taught in the classroom applies in real life. But basic marksmanship isn't that hard really. Just need good coaches on the firing line watching what the trainees are doing and correcting mistakes and advising them how to improve their performance.
Contrary to the usual "Drill Instructor in your face" routine of USMC Boot Camp the DI's actually make themselves scarce during rifle range training and the marksmanship coaches are "friendly" and "soft spoken".
Getting your "Toilet Seat" (minimum required marksmanship qualification badge) is pretty easy. The "Iron Cross" (sharpshooter badge) takes some skill/talent, but about 30-40% manage it. The crossed rifles (or pistols for handguns) for expert qualification takes (obviously) some innate talent, but still about 20% manage. Beyond that you get into snipers and competition shooting.

And just to beat my own drum, I was mid to high expert every year but one (had a hell of a cold) I was in, and tied the range record one (extremely good) year. I was a marksmanship coach, and range SNCO so I "think" I may have a pretty good idea how this stuff works on the practical application vs theoretical side.

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

If you're open to suggestions on how to name weapons with doubles and triples I've been using "3x M249 SAW" in my OOB revision. Makes searching on "2x", "3x" easy, and lets the player easily see this weapon is multiple weapons not a single.

From what I read the replacement of the standard M16 gas system with the HK piston one makes a HUGE difference in reliability and heating issues.

As to the replacement of an LMG with an AR, yeah, you will lose a significant amount of your ability to suppress via the "spray and pray" method, but (NOT trying to reopen this can of worms, honestly) improved accuracy means you hit closer to your target more often, and that's a lot more suppressive then rounds whizzing by 10m away.
Also it cuts down ammo expenditure, and that's important to something like the USMC that doesn't have a US Army type logistics tail.

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

I've been reading the debates on this and both sides have made good points but it really depends on where the fighting is. If most of your last 10 years of experience has been urban fighting then something light and accurate is highly desirable. If they had spent the last ten years fighting trench warfare the decision would be different but I think the USMC leadership has hedged their bets nicely by keeping some M249's around ( it made putting the M27's into the OOB's much easier )......and in five years if things change there's lot's of other weapons to fill that niche.

Just curious what score is required for USMC expert and how big is the 10 ring at the various ranges ( and...) what time period do you have to fire how many rounds to score ?

Don

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

5 ring actually. We score 5 pt bulls-eye, 4 pt ring, 3 pt ring, 2 pt on target.
We use 3 different targets.

200m Slow Fire (12in bulls-eye, 36in overall)
5 rounds offhand (10 min)
5 rounds kneeling (10 min)

200m Rapid Fire (head & shoulder silhouette, 19x26in bulls-eye, 6x6ft overall)
10 rounds standing to sitting in 60 seconds

300m Slow fire (12in bulls-eye, 36in overall)
10 rounds sitting (10 min)

300m Rapid Fire (head & shoulder silhouette, 26x19in bulls-eye, 6x6ft overall)
10 rounds standing to prone in 60 seconds

500m Slow Fire (torso silhouette, 20x40in bulls-eye, 6x6ft overall)
10 rounds prone (10 min)

Unqualified = 0-189
Marksman = 190-209
Sharpshooter = 210-219
Expert = 220+
Possible Score 250

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

Just so I'm clear the 200 and 300 rapid fire target is the same just turned 90 degrees ?

Don

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

No same target, 19x26in ... I just typo'd.

The target doesn't move.
You start out standing with 2x 5-round magazines.
When the signal is given the 60 seconds starts.
You assume a sitting (200m) or prone (300m) position, fire a 5-round magazine, change magazines, fire the other 5-rounds.

They've added a "quick kill"/"shoot-no-shoot" course in addition to the standard qualification course I hear. While I've never fired it chances are it is very similar to the one we Military Police types used when I was in. Pretty much the course you see on TV all the time in American police shows.

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

I meant "turned" as in rotated for the longer range because you had typo'd the dimensions but I see what you mean now. Interesting they force a mag change but I can see why it's done.

Where do most people drop points ---- on the LR section or the speed shoots ?

Don

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

Most have trouble with the 200m offhand (gee, wonder why).

Some "chase the bull" or anticipate the shot during slow fire. Neither is very easy to "fix" as you have to convince the shooter to change essentially unconscious habits.

If your aim or sights are off you can totally blow it in the speed shots. But, as long as they have a fairly tight group (say 18in) that's easily fixed (unless it's qualification day, then your screwed). Some however get so wound up in the time element they can't relax enough to reacquire their aim between shots. It's only 10 rounds and a magazine change so they have 3-4 seconds per shot but knowing that and "KNOWING" that are two totally different things.

Coaches can suggest alterations to sights for current wind and weather conditions (it's "fun" firing in the rain) but it's up to each shooter to adjust them themselves.

Most manage 35-40 in the 500m string (that was my easy part, 48-50).

So in answer to the question, it varies from shooter to shooter. Most folks have trouble with one string of fire or another but find others easy.

I recall a kid claiming it was the rifle's fault (it does happen once in a blue moon) and a CWO4 that had been in since the Romans conquered Gaul grabbed the weapon fired one shot, offhand, adjusted the sights, then put 10 in the bull ... at 500m, and tossed the kid his weapon back and said "Seems OK to me."

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

:D HeHeHe.....

GOOD ONE.

Thanks for the info. Really Good Stuff. I help out at our club Saturday mornings with the Juniors and my daughter shoots .22 rifle. Actually, I'm just on my way out the door now... We're only 50 yard indoor but I can see a modified USMC qualification fun shoot some time in the future.

I had a similar situation once with a new kid who could barely hit the paper and was blaming the gun and I took it and from prone nailed the bull dead center on the first shot ( I'm the first to admit I'm not normally that good believe me ) and as calmly as possible said exactly the same thing as that CWO4 so that story gave me a really good chuckle.

Don

Re: USMC to replace M249 SAW with M27 IAR
 

If you can find a 200m range and rig some targets, 1cm steel on a spring loaded frame so they "fall" when hit and "pop up" via the spring (sort of stuff you see at carnival and fair shooting galleries). You can also use battery powered electric motors (like those used in remote control cars/airplanes) to create moving targets.
Depends on your creativity and skill with tools, but you can make stuff for not much cost, the kids will love it.