USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Unit #109 CH-3E JG Giant (USA OOB #897 HH-3E JG Giant)
Unit #126 F-80 (USA OOB #125 F-80, #940 F-80)
Unit #193 OH-6 Cayuse (USA OOB #279 OH-6A+ Cayuse, #280 OH-6A Cayuse)
Unit #216 A-26A Invader [Bomber] (USA OOB #152 A-26 Invader, #854 A-26 Invader)
Unit #220 B-26 Marauder [Bomber] (USA OOB #132 B-26 Marauder, #853 B-26 Marauder)
Unit #222 A-26A Invader [Bomber] (USA OOB #152 A-26 Invader, #854 A-26 Invader)
Unit #252 OV-1 Mohawk (USA OOB #687 OV-1A Mohawk, #688 OV-1D Mohawk, #689 JOV-1C Mohawk)
Unit #298 M548 Ammo Carr (USA OOB #523 M548 Ammo Carr)
Unit #303 M3 Ammo Carrier (USA OOB #845 M3 Ammo Carrier)
Unit #313 MH-53J Pave Low (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #314 MH-53M Pave Low (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #521 F-82 Tw Mustang (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #570 AC-47D Puff (USA OOB #563 AC-47 Spooky)
Unit #571 AC-130A Spectre (USA OOB #824 AC-130A Spooky)
Unit #572 AC-130E Big Gun (USA OOB #564 AC-130H Spectre)
Unit #573 AC-130U+4Spooky (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #577 B-52 [CBU Incendiary] (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #579 B-57 (USA OOB #133 B-57)
Unit #580 F-111A (USA OOB #594 F-111A)
Unit #581 F-111F (USA OOB #592 F-111F)
Unit #582 F117 Nighthawk (USA OOB #931 F117 Nighthawk)
Unit #584 F117 Nighthawk (USA OOB #593 F117 Nighthawk)
Unit #585 B-52 (USA OOB #932 B-52)
Unit #588 B-1 (USA OOB #374 B-1)
Unit #589 B-2 (USA OOB #948 B-2)
Unit #590 RF-4 WildWeasel (USA OOB #577 F-4 Wild Weasel)
Unit #591 F117 NiteWeasel [SEAD] (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #609 AC-130J Spooky (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #614 AT-28D Trojan (USA OOB #863 AT-28DTrojan)
Unit #620 B-26K Invader (Not in USA OOB with same weapons load)
Unit #621 B-26K Invader (Not in USA OOB with same weapons load)
Unit #625 A-10 Warthog (USA OOB #870 A-10 Warthog)
Unit #626 A-10 Warthog (USA OOB #871 A-10 Warthog)
Unit #627 A-10 Warthog (USA OOB #151 A-10 Warthog)
Unit #903 F-111F (USA OOB #578 F-111F)
Unit #904 F-22A Raptor [SEAD] (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #908 F117 Nighthawk (USA OOB #931 F117 Nighthawk)
Unit #916 B-26K Invader (Not in USA OOB with same weapons load)
Unit #917 B-26K Invader (Not in USA OOB with same weapons load)
Unit #948 F-22A Raptor (USA OOB #595 F-22 Raptor)
Unit #949 F-22A Raptor [COIN] (Not in USA OOB)
Unit #990 M548 (USA OOB #846 M548)


Unit #298 M548 Ammo Carr (01/65-12/20) replacment exists as #301 Ammo Amtrac (01/56-12/73) and #302 Ammo Amtrac (01/72-12/20)
Unit #303 M3 Ammo Carrier (01/46-12/64) replacment exists as #300 Ammo Amtrac (01/46-12/55)

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

:yield:

Ok I deleted my first response becasue I'm sure it would have burnt the eyes out of anyone who read it but lets just say I'm not real happy at the moment so I'll just reduce this down to three simple questions.

1/ Please explain WHY having a A-10 in the USMC OOB is an issue ? A-10's have never supported USMC in battle ?.....Ever ?

2/

Please explain WHY it's an "issue" for you that an aircraft in the USMC OOB ( the ONLY OOB in the game specifically for sub branch of a nations armed forces ) MIGHT have a different weapons load than one in the parent US OOB?

3/
Please enlighten me why it's an issue that a version of an aircraft may exist in the USMC OOB that does not exist in the US OOB ( that has 18 free unit slots left )

???

Don

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Plus - if you require USA OOB support - there is the allies function already, designed precisely for that purpose.

Andy

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Yes Andy but half those units were added to fill out the USMC OOB before the allies button was even thought of and the the other half ( like the Navy Helos ) were added because It was believed logical that they might be available to USMC. I don't recal ANYONE ever thinking someone might make an issue of it and nor was it thought that having a slightly different weapons load between units in the US and USMC would be an "issue" either but yet....here we are.

"Unit #916 B-26K Invader (Not in USA OOB with same weapons load)"

Really....... which one ? There three in the US OOB and FOUR ( gasp ! ) in the USMC but they are two types of COIN aircraft in the US OOB and COIN and FB in the USMC ( which just might explain the difference in weapons load and given there were a lot of ways to load up a aircraft the question again is....so whats the problem ? Are we just pointing of there are differences between units in the game ? Well DUH there's almost 36,000 units in MBT. There will be differences, it's not chess

Don

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

The Allies function Andy mentioned is the primary reason I brought this up.

I thought it might be worthwhile to eliminate duplicate units in the USA/USMC OOBs (why I indicated the ones with no duplicates - i.e. "(Not in USA OOB with same weapons load)"} to reduce (in the long run) the workload of maintaining the two OOBs.

To the best of my limited understanding the intent of having two OOBs for the USA in the first place is that the US Army/USAF and USMC/USN are sufficiently large, and different, military services that it's impractical to have just one USA OOB. And that keeping each OOB "accurate" as to the weapons, units, and formations would help reinforce those differences.

I intentionally did not mention that the B-26 variants were NOT used for close air support, they're were dedicated interdiction aircraft used vs the Ho Chi Mhin Trail, thus outside the scope of WinSPMBT.

You may note that I did not suggest what should/could be done with the information provided, I merely took the time to cross reference the OOBs and point out duplicates. What you do, or don't do, with the information provided is up to you.

As to the Navy Helo's.
There's not a lot of call for anti-submarine warfare on dry land, and whatever anti-ship capability they may have the Navy tends to prefer to use keeping their ships safe, they're funny that way. Dedicated SAR helos might be considered outside the scope of WinSPMBT, thus might be be safely eliminated as irrelevant to the game, much like fuel trucks.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

NO.. what you did as drop a list with NO explanation at all of what the purpose was or what "Not in USA OOB with same weapons load" actually meant so "garbage in...garbage out" 3 minutes typing an "explanation" the first time would have save a lot of aggravation and misunderstanding.

Go back to that first post, clear your mind of any personal understanding of what you were trying to convey then tell me if it makes any sense to you based on your last post

What exactly am I to make of "Unit #579 B-57 (USA OOB #133 B-57)" with no explanation or did you just ASSUME I would know what you meant ?


Don

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Let's say I've become leery of offering anything but purely factual information concerning aircraft in the game.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

OK that nice but it does not explain the lack of an explanation that was offered for that list aside for two notes at the end related to ammo carriers.

??

I get a post that titled "USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB" and then "Unit #577 B-52 [CBU Incendiary] (Not in USA OOB)"

OK...... it has a different ammo load but it's still a "USA/USAF Unit in USMC OOB"



Don

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Noted.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Hi,

I dont know if I understand well but... I think to have a special OOB for important army aviation (US/RU/GB/FR) is a good idea.

It could free a lot of spaces for groud units.

It could (Allies system) create some interesting possibilities.

I dont know if its possible and it will need a lot of work but the idea is not bad.

Thank you,

-Luc-

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

I was thinking along the lines of creating two OOB's.
Western (NATO) Bombers
Eastern (Warsaw Pact & Asia) Bombers
That should free up 5-15 unit slots per OOB.
Bombers really aren't used much except by the occasional scenario designer.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

that's what I do on my custom OOBs, transplant all the air units first to clear up room to move units around so I can see how much room is left for air. I used to use one of the "unused" OOB numbers, but now they're all used for active nations or for R&D use, so I've had to improvise. the only problem game-wise is, nationalities determine names/ranks, so if you look up these air units on your org chart, you might see odd name/rank match-ups for your nationality. the allies button seems to use names and ranks for that nationality number, and not the active player's nationality

for #12 USA, the alternative would be to suck all the naval gunfire/transport/amphibs over to #13 USMC, which would free up some room for air; then segregate Army and AF onto #12, and Navy and MC onto #13. then you still have the paradox of airstrikes being led by Lieutenants with Sergeants as wingmen. solution: make airstrikes a Company formation type, with a single aircraft, and subformation of one aircraft as a Platoon; this will make Captains leading Lieutenants on airstrikes

but this leaves the Navy problem...and outside of burning up a whole Nationality just for the Navy (for each Nationality that has an active Navy, that could be a lot of Nationalities!), I can't see how we can incorporate naval ranks. if money/effort/time were not a factor, recoding to incorporate a branch of service flag and making separate rank lists for each branch of service could be done, but that's heavy on the PITA and light on ROI. I recommend the new airstrike formations and leaving it at that

John

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

I have to agree with all this. I pushed hard in the Jets/Planes and other Threads real hard with Don. As I found out yes it would be a major project just to do what I thought would "thin the herd" in the OOBs. It's not simply a matter of deleting units and there would be 300-400 units (Small countries keep theirs for many reasons.) to deleted from the OOBs, Campaigns and Scenarios, software and other technical issues are involved as well. Don and Andy are well aware of this issue. And I know from my position only, Don winces every time I submit a relevant piece of equipment to the USA OOB because we know there's only ~27 open slots left there without allowing for what I submitted this year along with others to include Don as well. However about a year ago Don did post that Andy and him are working on solutions to the OOB slot issue. We can only hope.

Regards,
Pat

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Place them in the UN OOB. Also air transports, tank transporters and any other rarely used equipment.

Ideally there would be a common OOB for generic units like bulldozers and ammo dumps that everyone can buy from.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

The idea has been tossed around a few times.

A couple of the "problems" are:
A) New(er) players might not know to look in the "Air" OOB or how to purchase units from it.
B) Every scenario using aircraft would need to be updated.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

roger that, Suhiir. I appreciate all the work the team does to make our baby more enjoyable and realistic. if the team ever finds the time to comb through the scenarios and campaigns yet again, I plead that #12 units be sorted in some sort of unit class order concurrently. it's a bear finding template units scattered all over a list with units in no particular order

regarding increasing the number of units beyond 999, I remember how liberated I felt when we went beyond 255. still, if there was some way to have multiple iterations for each unit, say unit 008A for an M4A3E8 with medium tank loadout, 008B for an M4A3E8 with close support tank loadout, 008C as obsolete tank, etc., then from the unit selection menu, by picking unit 008, you can cycle through all the different iterations for that unit without tying up unit slots (got the idea from how digital cable TV channels work). this would also cut down on hunting through the entire list for multiple entries for the same unit in differing roles/weapons loadouts, like fighter-bombers and rifle squads. by arranging units in an array of say 255 units with 15 sub-units, it would leave room for expansion (3825 iterations in all). perhaps this is an idea more appropriate for the post-2020 project, if the team is already contemplating going beyond?

John

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

That's some of what I did with my USMC OOB variant (at least the MBT vs CS variant).
It was possible ONLY because the OOB was no where near as filled as say the US Army or Russian.

And now my variant is very close to filled so when the official patches come out I often have to move units I've created when the official patch uses a previosly unused unit number for something.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

AFAIK very few scenarios use level bombers.

This game will be around for a while still, I think it's worth it to create the Air/UN OOB.

It just seems like it would be so much better if hardcoded restrictions were somehow lifted and you could add thousands of units. There is no need to limit memory use like this on any computer made after 1995.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

If all the level bombers were taken out of all the winSPMBT OOB's it would "save" 319 slots or, on average 3.5 slots per OOB. In the case of the US OOB it would "save" 20 slots and Russia would "save" 13. In the case of the current "official" USMC OOB.... 9 slots

There are currently 17 open slots left in the US OOB. Removing all the bombers would bring it to 37 which *I* consider ( they guy who would do the actual work ) to be a relatively insignificant increase for the amount of work involved in setting up a new OOB and moving 319 bombers into it so this is a dead idea that does not require further flogging

As for "if hardcoded restrictions were somehow lifted and you could add thousands of units"......... after eliminating all the smartassed answers what I'm left with is..... if it was that easy we would have done it by now. The entire.... and I mean ENTIRE, structure of save games and sceanrios would change rendering all existing save games, scenarios, unreadable to the "expanded" game. This is HARDLY a trivial thing.



Don

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Thanks for information on the hardcoded restrictions. Does sound more difficult than I had thought. Sorry if I get needlessly smartassed on these things.

But I can move the bombers into another OOB myself with the team's permission. I can see the problem in the rest of the OOBs, but I can move 20 bombers out of the US and 13 out of Russia into another OOB, like the UN. If there is any more room left I can move as many other bombers as you'd like into the UN OOB as well.

I can't edit the source code to create a new OOB and make it show up in-game, because as a non-programmer I'm not ready for that. But IMHO shifting the bombers out of US/Russia is a good idea in principle, these are major armies and frequently used armies and I'm willling to make it so they benefit from more slots.

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Copied all level bombers in USMC, USA and Russia to UN OOB. Give me another OOB to do the same task or give me another task and I will enthusiastically complete it. Give me 7 days and I will move all 319 level bombers into the UN OOB.

I DID NOT delete ANY units. The level bombers have been copied into the UN OOB and the original units were not deleted. I can do this as well.

USMC unit 576 F-35C JSF (USN) has wrong icon and/or wrong name (F-22 LBM and Icon shown). I DID NOT fix this problem, simply copied as presented.

Just so I'm clear. I don't object to the idea because it would make work for me..... I object to the idea because I simply do not like it...... the added work is secondary and given what else I do every year to get these games out .. moving bombers would be a relatively trivial expenditure of time and effort.

I do not foresee running out of slots in any OOB this release, the next release or even the one after that so pulling bombers out to accommodate nothing and serves no purpose whatsoever.

Don

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

That's because the F-35C has 45% more wing area than a A or B carries 3 TONS more fuel . It also looks more like an F-22 from the top which is why we used the same Icon. I will fix the photo

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

SERIOUSLY ? Do you actually belive that nearly a year after those were completed and a month or so before the next release that there HAS NOT BEEN CHANGES MADE TO THOSE OOBS ??

Thanks.. but I really don't need the "help"

Don

Re: USA/USAF Units in USMC OOB
 

Alright, well thanks for the confirmation. Let me know if I can help with anything else.