French OOB
 

I've been playing a French campaign set on 2012 and I've noticed a couple of things.

The "Legion spt pl" (formation 110) with trucks should probably have a Legionaire section instead of an Infantry Section and 81mm mortars instead of 120mm mortars.

The foot Legionaire company (98) should probably use the foot support platoon (102) instead of the one in trucks (110). It's quite unusual to have foot formations with motorized support platoons in the OOBs. I guess this is some kind of mismatch.

Currently the foot support platoon (102) and Mech FS support platoon (107) don't have the mortarts which the truck support platoon has. They also should have Milans instead of Eryxes and an option for the 12.7 HMG. Milans are used by the company support platoon while Eryxes are platoon level AT-weapons.

According to this the contemporary Legion sections should have FAMAS, Minimi SAW, ABL AT4 and LGE Mle F1. Platoons have an attached Eryx team. This is pretty much exactly the same organization as the modern Infantry Company (041) in the French OOB.

Apilas is notably absent from the TO&E presented at the page, and I can't find solid info on whether it's even used by the French army these days or not. I've read that it was some kind of a stopgap solution before Eryx and that it had major drawbacks. If they withdrew them from service it makes sense.

A very ubiquitous but suspicious piece of equiment in the French OOB is the Energa Grenade which is found on various infantry units. I find it kind of odd that the French would be using an AT rifle grenade from the 50's during modern times.

Many French engineer units are equiped with flamethrowers. Since nearly everyone has stopped using flamethrowers I' unsure if the french are really using them these days either.

Does anyone have any solid info on if Apilas, Energa and flamethrowers are still used by the french army?

Re: French OOB
 

According to this French site (Or at least used to be.) the FA has 9000 APILAS weapons. I've found this site to be very reliable in the past and have used it often. In the "World Army" section they seem to be pretty good at keeping up on numbers of various equipment, where there is a "?" next say to a tank it usually means there's info that they probably have it, a deal is pending for it or it's unconfirmed. So use caution there and try to back it up with another source or two. Anyway a start point for you, should be the English version if not, and you need it, you'll see the Union Jack in the upper left of the equipment section to save you time.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/franc...eapons_uk.html

Appears they have changed their format, replaced the "?" with a "-".

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

On the list to investigate.......

Don

Re: French OOB
 

I will concede that the Energa is likely wrong but .......

Maybe.........maybe not. If anyone finds any info to confirm this or not pass it on. I still don't know if they are using the 105 howitzer and if not, when it when OOS. I've heard some guesses but I'm not pulling anything out of an OOB on speculation.

It is more than possible that they were put in originally on speculation but I will need hard info before Io pull them out and I'm already swamped with work and have no time to go on data safaris looking for the answers. I have more than enough right now to keep me busy 10 hours a day for the next month.

If anyone does find anything please post the info in plain english and the link clearly and not just a link. I have little time ( or humour....) for "discovery" expeditions ATM

Don

Re: French OOB
 

I will concede the error with the lead unit. Yes, it should be a Legionaire section instead of an Infantry Section but unless you have info better than "probably" I'm going to leave the mortars as is. "Probably" may be the reason they are there in the first place, or maybe not. If I'm going to change something I need more substantial than "probably"


"probably" again.

The problem I have with this is that "the foot support platoon (102)" has trucks as well which makes the whole reason you think that formation should be changed from 110 a moot point as both formations contain trucks and given they were set up with 120mm mortars having trucks to move them makes perfect sense so while I appreciate there may be questions about this, the "probably" answers don't help a whole lot in resolving it but only raise more questions

Don

Re: French OOB
 

This is what I mean about raising more questions

These are support platoons. They lead off with Inf-AT units because they start at 1950 and before and inf-ATGM didn't exist then. 110 contains Inf-ATGM and a contemporary battle would offer either Eryx OR Milan to anyone buying 110. If I were to change to Milans I would have to make new formations and if I was to make new formations to give those formations inf-atgm units I would need to know when that practice started so I can set up start and end dates but before I start rearranging the structure of the OOB ( and perhaps the picklists the AI uses ) I would need to know FOR CERTAIN this info is correct beyond " probably"


Don

Re: French OOB
 

For the 105mm French OOB Units 415 and 553 I think you can safely change the end date to be on the safe side to either 2000/or 2005 vice 12/2020. Also French OOB AUF 2 is not shown on the active French Artillery roster per the French DOD website showing current artillery in use. It's a start point...
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equipements/artillerie

Troops...
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equ...l-et-collectif

Tanks with a couple of surprises...
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equipements/chars

Vehicles with some cross over units...
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equipements/vehicules

FELIN as I've already reported on...
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equ...xperimentation

Thus far on ENERGA what I've found thus far is that it's a Belgian not French weapon still checking but no more this morning gotta hit the rack!

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

The donut hole for the the French 105mm field howitzer seems to fall between ~1975 to ~2005, the truth is in there somewhere and this has been a real challenge thus far, but I like a mystery. What needs to be watched for are the AMX 105mm SPA and the LEGION "Extraordinaire" who might have held on to them a little longer being somewhat outside the "mainstream" army and due to their mission as a rapid deployment force. It might turn out they still have them though, I draw no conclusions yet as I've not fully looked into it yet. Will stay on it. The tremors are only a few days away, be prepared!?!

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product574.html

"
The first qualification example was delivered by the company to the French DGA late in 2002, who then commenced qualification tests.

Late in 2003 it was revealed that the French Army had changed its policy on the upgrade of the GCT, and the 155 mm/52 calibre version will not be procured in the short term at least"

The Auf-2 was the 155 mm/52 calibre version. They went with the Caesar instead

This entry probably went into the OOB over 10 years ago on speculation it would be introduced but , as everyone is finding out, it's not always easy to find clear info on French Equipment.

Those links look great in French but I don't read French and the English links are not the same information.

As for the 105's, I'm still looking it.

As for the AMX-30B2 I keep finding info that there was gun stabilization that was electronic,controlled by the ballistic computer but there always seems to be other sources that say otherwise


Don

Re: French OOB
 

Hopefully lighting will strike twice, first was with the Australian MOD about their tank platoon etc. size you might remember from a couple of years ago. In that vain, I've contacted NEXTAR concerning the French 105mm.

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

I still think you can back off the 105mm dates as suggested or at least back to 2010 from 2020, based on the French Army site provided that they didn't list it. However I have sent a further email just a few minutes ago to the Ministry of the Army. They do allow for information requests of that nature on the French side of the site. Basically asked for the 105mm artillery used after WWII and when it was taken out of service by both the Regular Army and the Foreign Legion.
The AUF-1/AU-F1 units are fine as they stand I believe as the 105mm search as crossed paths with that unit somehow on the web a few times. I'll be shutdown after Sunday for a few days so I hope someone will answer before that.

I BETTER HIT THE RACK BEFORE SOMEONE DOES ME BODILY HARM.

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

I found a copy of a IISS book on world military equipment and there were 149 105mm artillery piece in the French army in 1992.

Pity I don't have copies of every year but I don't so sometime between 1992 and maybe 2010 they went OOS with the French Army.


Don

Re: French OOB
 

I'd say we can mark that as progress from where this "project" started from. I'd almost...I would bet that most of those 105mm tubes belonged to the Legionaries as they would have need of an air portable artillery tube to support their mission as a rapid deployment unit.

Still awaiting my responses to my requests as discussed elsewhere.

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

I'm sorry for the late reply, but university kept me busy.

I tried to look for solid information in english but I didn't manage to find much except for this OOB from 2003. France however had a military reform in 2008 so the OOB may not be fully up to date.

The 120mm mortars were and in some case still are handled by battalion level recon and support companies. These are already represented in the game by the CEA RI and CEA companies which have the mortars. French army website says that 120mm mortars are currently used by artillery regiments and marine (RIMA) forces. They might have been once upon a time have been used by Legionaries as company support weapons but nothing I managed to find implies they still are. The french army's website says that contemporary Legion support platoons have 81mm mortars and Milan ATGMs.

I haven't found anything that would imply that contemporary Legion companies would have radicaly different organization or armament compared to regular French infantry units. Their battalion/regiment level organization is peculiar but the bulk of legion infantry forces (2nd regiment, 5 infantry companies) is basicaly light mechanized infantry with VABs or VBCIs.

Outside of the 2nd regiment the FFL has the 3rd regiment with 2 companies. It's garrisoned in the French Guyana. The french army website isn't very wordy on their exact armament, except that their support units also have the 81mm mortars. There's also a small detachment in Mayotte, near the Comoroos. For WINSPMBT these two formations are military curiosities, unless someone fancies modeling a France vs Brazil war or anti-poaching actions the 3rd regiment has been involved in.

and yes, the french brigade/regiment level organization is a horrible headache.

To put it shortly, the majority of Legion infantry units follows the organization of other light mech units with VABs or VBCIs, which is in turn constrained by the carry capacity of these vechiles. For VAB it's 10, for VBCI it's 9. This in turn follows nicely the purported standard squad organization of the French army 8 men, split into two fireteams. Another one revolves around the ABL AT4's, another one has the Minimi and LGI. (Former?) forum user Urban has detailed the organization in fine detail.

And about the support platoon Milans, once again this info is based on what it says on the official french army website.

According to the 2003 OOB the 12.7 HMGs are near ubiquitous and the 7.62 MGs much rarer.

Apilas was only as being used by marine units by the french army site. The current OOB has some heavy infantry units with Apilas instead of ABL AT4 mixed in infantry and mech infantry formations. I think this is a fine solution, especially if you could add a heavy infantry/mech infantry unit which has the ABL AT4 instead of Apilas.

At least the Mech Legion units should follow a similar line IMO, and the foot/truck legionaires should at least have an option to pick weapons in line with the current French organization. This is so that just in case that the French actually use Apilas more than they say and that if the smaller Legion units use different weapons than usual they can still be represented while offering the option to pick the (IMO) more likely choice.

Still no idea on the flamethrowers.

Re: French OOB
 

A ton of information of French use of flamethrowers during WWI. Nothing after that though. It seems the USA/USMC were the biggest users of it after WWI as a "MANPAC" system. Most other countries shifted to the Flame Tank as it had a greater range and dare I state the obvious, better protection. Vietnam both marked a resurgence of the "MANPAC" and it's end, as the M9A1-7 was replaced by the M202A1 Flame Grenade Launcher during the end of that war.

I found a couple of refs of a French ENERGA AT rifle grenade. However most sources in regards to the initial ENERGA 75mm grenade point to use only by Belgium, U.S., UK, South Africa also Rhodesia was mentioned many times as well. The answer will have to come from a reliable Pub. or French source. If I get an answer to another inquiry from the French MOD, I 'll push the envelope further on this question. The improved version below is the one I saw mentioned for French use a couple of times. The original ENERGA grenade was made between ~1950 - 1953. There were several users of the "Super" as well.
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...e-Belgium.html

This ref. (From 1991.) if someone has it or an older or newer version would mercifully end our agony on this, but what's a little pain anyway!?! After all when I see my Dentist, she just drills away when required, I hate needles! Have a long day tomorrow, have a great week!

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

Concerning flamethrowers, the last I heard of them in French service was 1982 and I am certain they have been phased out.

Re: French OOB
 

Well the 105mm got into my head again earlier today, I should've been born a Bulldog, anyway no response from the French MOD to date except that they acknowledged they recieved my email, how nice. :smirk:
So I just threw another "Hail Mary" and asked Jane's if they could answer the question on when the 105mm went out of service, maybe since I mentioned that the FMOD have not responded that it'll spur them on to do so...yeah and I'm expecting snow here in SE GA. any minute now also!?! Still trying.

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

Don,
Because it's no fun going to bed without frustrating yourself first, I thought I'd try a "shift in direction" concerning the French 105mm. Here's what we know during WWII the French were using the USA 105mm M101 and it is well documented they continued it's use through the mid fifties in Indochina, Algeria and beyond. By the the early sixties it has "disappeared". A) So did they buy the USA 105mm M102 that became available ~1963? No. B) We know they went very nationalistic in the early sixties as well, so did they redevelop their own program again? Well I've been unable thus far to uncover any evidence of that, except on an SP platform (AMX MK 61 105mm) which is in the game I believe. C) We have your earlier post in this thread and based off your source puts them still in possession of them until ~1992 I believe it was. D) The below ref. shows that GIAT which was French Government controlled I believe started developing the LG1 105mm Mk II ~1987 though only for export.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product573.html
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/f1_gct.htm
So I believe the we're back to ~1995 or sooner as your book indicated and that's in line when the AU-F1 GCT 155mm ceased production in 1993. The AU-F1 GCT 155mm and CEASAR 155mm are the only artillery in use with the French Army at this time.
Obviously the "Hail Marys" didn't work out French MOD or NEXTAR. I miss the Aussies, at least they responded to our tank unit questions.

I'm off to the rack.

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

I won't be making any change until I start work on the OOB's next fall . Maybe someone will come up with something definitive by then.

This does, however, point out why OOB work is a thankless PITA. The reason the same 105mm gun stays in service in the French OOB from 1946-2020 is because there is no info to be found. We ASSUME it must be wrong because it would seem a ridiculously long service life even if the nation were third world but there's nothing to be found so we either go with the best we have or leave it until we find something better or try an "educated guess" knowing full well all three options are probably wrong and at some point in the future someone will show up asking why this is still in service when the last one was used 1989 like EVERYBODY knew that. :re:

Don

Re: French OOB
 

Amen to that, and some wonder why I haven't been able to play the game :rolleyes:, which I believe was last August sometime :eek:. But my Thai troops will have me back to fight the Chinese PLA soon enough before the Spring Offensive starts :)! But in the meantime I contacted the French Army Museum in Paris, Conservatory Dept. This is a challenge, the Ethiopian T-72AG tank deal with the Ukraine is fast becoming my PITA ;)!! Anyway here's their website and the email did get through the "post office" cleanly. Also the English translation is down (404 Error.) but, the Spanish one works great!!!
http://www.invalides.org/

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

I probably should see a Dr. as I can't even read a book without reading a passage and it coming back to a topic in the Forum. :sick:
The topic French flamethrowers. The result after many hours on the net have also been posted here, basically couldn't find anything except WW I use. So I read this book changed my search perimeters around it and what I read and guess what? Yeah, you guessed it of course they had them and it looks like from 1943 with the Free French units until possibly 1980 when France among others signed a treaty banning their use, see ref below. So for now I can say the French used the U.S. M2 Flamethrower when it also become available from 1943 - 1960 for sure.
The book HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE THE SIEGE OF DIEN BIEN PHU by Bernard Fall 1966. First mentioned them on Pg. 79 2nd full Para. "On February 6, Lt. Col. Langlais and GAP 2, the 2nd BT, the 1st Battalion of the 4th Moroccan Infantry, a Foreign Legion flamethrower detachment, and a platoon with explosive charges from the 31st Engineering Battalion assaulted the highest mountain in the immediate vicinity of Dien Bien Phu-Hill 754-781."

Also the book will have me looking into the U.S. 155mm and the
M24 CHAFFEE tanks the French used in Indochina and was thus available to the French Army. And a Battery was made up of four guns at that time in regards to the 105mm or 155mm if this needs a quick looking at in the OOB.

While I'm at it this is my plan for the 105mm: 1. Contact in writing Ft. Sill home to the USA Artillery School seeking their help and 2. I had an idea at work, what would happen if I searched using French? I'll try it. Regardless I have three dates in mind to purpose based I what I've been able to pull together on this thus far for the next Patch.

So far PITA is still a flat bread...so far!! :rolleyes:
Note the last sentence of the ref. in regards to other countries, more issues?. This is represenative of a handful of others found.
http://christopher-eger.suite101.com...thrower-a73015

Anyway I hope you all have a great weekend and I need to hit the rack-one more to go!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

The 105mm M101 was mostly out of service with the french army by the early 1990s, it was retained for several more years (up until late 1990s max) as a stored pre-position weapon for intervention forces in several french bases in Africa + some for instructional use in France as long as remaining ammo stocks lasted. I know that the french marines had a mixed battery of 155mm BF50 and 105mm M101 in use in Djibouti in 1995 but 120mm mortars soon became plentifull due to french army downsizing.

Re: French OOB
 

I had thrown out the mid nineties also in Africa thinking it was the Legion though. I have a "feeler" out to Ft. Sill that I hope leads to an answer. But the UK's Royal Artillery Museum thought they were pulled sooner, I believe I posted that email in here. So I and on behave of Don as well, welcome you to our PITA on this topic.

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

I *thought* I had all French 105's ending 12/94 as a "best guess" but I see now one unit is 12/94, one is 12/65 and one is 12/2020 so I suspect I only hit the save button after the first change. However there are picklist implicates that need to be investigated as well but "mid 90's " seems to be safe though typically we get "better" info a week after a patch is released......


Don

Re: French OOB
 

Well I've just checked my email and got my answer from Ft. Sill. First I'll post my reply from the British Royal Artillery Museum again. I think I could really use the help of our French contributors out there, take a trip to Paris and go the main Military Museum and please ask someone there for me concerning the use of the 105mm field howitzer. Well I've got to 2021 I guess, I still feel that 1995-1997 is the best answer during Frances involvement in Africa during mid 1990s. A photo search is in order along with a couple of cards still up my sleeve.

From the Royal Artillery Library, Woolwich‏
To see messages related to this one, group messages by conversation.
5/08/12 Reply ▼Reply
Reply all
Paul Evans at Royal Artillery Museum Paul Evans at Royal Artillery Museumpaule@firepower.org.uk
Send email
Find email Add to contactsTo patrickjconklin@hotmail.com
From: Paul Evans at Royal Artillery Museum (paule@firepower.org.uk)
Sent: Tue 5/08/12 9:17 AM
To: patrickjconklin@

Ref. May.39
8th May 2012

Dear Mr Conklin

Thank you for your recent communication.

I’m afraid our holdings on French artillery aren’t as comprehensive as you would wish.

The 105mm Mk61 SP Howitzer on an AMX13 light tank chassis was taken into service in 1958 after ten years of making do with the Second World War vintage towed variant. By 1990 these had been reduced to Reserve use only.

The 1989-1990 edition of Jane’s Armour & Artillery states “During the mid to late 1960s GIAT developed the prototype of a 105mm light gun known as the Canon 105LTR. The prototype was not developed further but with the formation of the French Rapid Reaction Force (FAR) there arose the need for replacement of the French Army’s existing 105mm M101 and 105mm Model 56 Pack Howitzers. The Canon 105 LTR was revived for a while during the mid 1980s but has now been replaced with an updated model known as the LG1. The 105mm LG1 Light gun was a private venture developed by GIAT’s Etablissement d’Etudes et de Fabrications d’Armement de Bourges. By early 1987 three prototypes had been produced and these were followed by three pre-production weapons. As of May 1989 no firm orders for the GAIT 105mm LG1 Light gun had been placed.”

The 1999-2000 edition of Jane’s Armour & Artillery expands to include “Late in 1990, following a competition between GIAT Industries with the 105mm LG1 Light Gun and Royal Ordnance of the UK with their 105mm Light Gun, Singapore placed an order for 37 of the 105mm LG1 Light gun. Early in 1994, Indonesia placed a firm order for 20 105mm LG1 Mk II Light guns. In June 1994 the Canadians placed an order for 28 and in 1995 the Belgian Army ordered 14.


I hope this is of some assistance. I should add that as an independent museum we are dependent on visitor income and charges for research enquiries in order to support our facilities. Although there will be no charge for answering this enquiry, a donation is always welcome. Those wishing to make a donation should send a cheque made out to ‘Royal Artillery Museums Ltd’, and send it to the Historical Secretary, The Royal Artillery Museum, Royal Arsenal (West), Warren Lane, Woolwich, London SE18 6ST. Or if it’s easier you can visit www.justgiving.com/firepower/donate and we would ask you title your donation “Because of the Library”

Yours sincerely

Paul Evans

Librarian

The latest...

Full view||Back to messagesFrench M101s (UNCLASSIFIED)‏
12/03/12 Reply ▼Reply
Reply all
Blaker, Gordon A CIV (US) Blaker, Gordon A CIV (US)gordon.a.blaker.civ@mail.mil
Send email
Find email Add to contactsTo patrickjconklin@hotmail.com
From: Blaker, Gordon A CIV (US) (gordon.a.blaker.civ@mail.mil)
Sent: Mon 12/03/12 4:34 PM
To: patrickjconklin@ (patrickjconklin@)


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Greetings,

Sorry, I've gotten nothing on French use of those 105mm howitzers. My best suggestion is Jane’s Armour and Artillery which I have found is about the best source for determining who was using what when. It makes sense that the Marines and FFL would be the last to use them. One possibility for leads might be Michael Franz who edited the Tankograd TM on the 105. I've no idea how to contact him. Also, members of the European branches of the Military Vehicle Preservation Association might have some leads.

Best of luck I know the feeling I’m trying to figure out how to adjust track tension of a WWII German Hummel,

Gordon Blaker

Director/Curator

US Army Artillery Museum

Fort Sill, OK


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Well I've always said this was a PITA. Now however, let's just say "It's my PITA and Windmill!?!"

Have a Great Day everyone! I NEED SOME SLEEP!

Regards,
Pat

Re: French OOB
 

Don,
FYI (And others of course.), I hope to end the madness here with this 105mm issue, well hopefully anyway. I've finally had the time to throw that "Hail Mary". I've contacted Mr. Lovett from the below site and will await his answer one way or another. Depending on the outcome I think I'm done chasing this one for awhile, besides I never did to play the game once this past year, how do you restart a generated campaign!?! Only kidding!! Though it's pretty bad when CINCLANTHOME even took notice of that!?! Anyway I know you've settled on a date for the upcoming Patch and as you know I feel it's the best we're going to get based on the feedback already provided. No need to reply.
Hope you all have a great week!
http://www.lovettartillery.com/index.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: French OOB
 

Don,
The "Hail Mary" on my part has been thrown to try to lock down or at least firm up the end that I know you'll be using for the French 105mm howitzers in the upcoming patch. I have earlier contacted Mr. R. Lovett from the below website. Will post the results one way or another. I think I'll be done with this PITA pending the reply back should I get one. Tried the French one last time but like the first time I did that, I'm not going to hold my breath on getting any answer. There was a time CINCLANTHOME would wonder why I played the game so often (Boy was that a long time ago!!) so you know it's bad when the comment now is why it's been a year since I played it!?! Though of course she took my situation of the last few months into account. Anyway we'll see what happens and in the mean time, can anyone tell how to restart a generated campaign!?! I kid you...though seriously...anyway have a great week!!
No reply needed.
http://www.lovettartillery.com/index.html


Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Just saw the above, and on my computer it looked like I lost that one after trying to refresh the site. Must have caught the site in a maintenance mode- SORRY!

Re: French OOB
 

Pat. I've taken them OOS 12/96 but if you find better info I'll use it

Don

Re: French OOB
 

Maybe it could help :o

For the 50's to 90's era
Infantry
http://daniel.rabbe.free.fr/organisation/section.htm

Armor
http://daniel.rabbe.free.fr/organisation/peloton.htm

I have TTA document from 1999 just need to make the transfert from my old computer :)
Section d'infanterie (Infantry platoon)
Section d'appuie (Support platoon)
Section Recon Regimentaire (Regimental Recon Platoon)
+ other doc about AMX10, Leclerc regiments