mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Does anyone have any info to confirm that East German Mi-8 and Mi24's were actually operated by the FRG for a short period of time after reunification ?

Mi-8 until 1997
Mi-24 until 1993

??
The dates are from Wiki the quote is from HERE



Don

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

I can confirm the operation of Mi-8 by the FRG after reunification. Saw the military raffle off free flights in Hueys and Mi-8s. (Won flights in both, but gave the Mi-8 flight to a buddy who didn't win)
Sorry can't remember the exact year, definitely after '92.

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Thanks

If anyone has any info on the Hinds and how they may have been armed it would be very helpful

Don

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Mi-24s were probably used for a short time only. Polish article claims (without details), that they were repainted, but soon were stored. In 1995 or before that date part were given to Hungary, then part to Poland.

Considering this, I'm sure, that they retained their original armament - Western rockets would need some integration, while S-8 80mm rockets were very good, and S-5 57mm were satisfactory. As for missiles, the Germans probably didn't bother with Falanga of Mi-24D, but Shturm might still be interesting in early 90s.

By the way, as for East German OOB:
122 Mi-24 Hind-A - I haven't heard about Mi-24A in Germany. Date 1/71 is unbelievable, since in 1970-71 they started to appear in USSR. Wrong picture BTW.

123 Mi-24 Hind-E - correct designation Mi-24P (Hind F, BTW). According to a mentioned Polish article, delivered only from 1988 (1/86). All Mi-24s could carry 4 missiles and 128 x S-5 57mm rockets (4x32) at a time - in the game they usually have less - this one has 32. There aren't seen smaller launchers, than 32-tube, at all.

124 Mi-24 Hind-D - correct designation Mi-24D. Same about 57mm rockets, as above.

125 Mi-24 Hind-D - correct designation Mi-24W (Hind E, BTW). Same about 57mm rockets.

920-928 - same units, with wrong Hind names, and different armament. As for 80mm rockets, they could carry 80 (4x20) - they have 40.

I've just checked German Wiki http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-24 and it says, that Mi-24D were used from August 1978 (now 1/77). No mention on Mi-24A. If anybody speaks German:

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

One more thing: 123 Mi-24 Hind-E has icon of Mi-24A. Seems, that camouflaged ones will be more appropriate anyway - 3487 for Mi-24D and W, 3491 for P - photo http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:M...8Berlin%29.jpg

Michal

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

After the reunification some craft were evaluated by the Bundeswehr, one Mi-24D and one P were given to the US-army as OPFOR.
The rest was flown in non-regular duty and finally retired on the 14th of September 1994.

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

I'll leave the Hinds out

Don

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

I've just found an article on German Mi-24 in Polish Aeroplan 3/2004. It lists all helicopters and it appears, that East Germany didn't use Mi-24W/V at all! After Mi-24D there were Mi-24P delivered, but only from 1989 (we have 1988 now - unit #123). Also German Wikipedia don't mention German Mi-24W and says:

I'm not sure of translation, but it seems, that the first of 12 Mi-24P went into a regiment on 15 December 1989(?).

Units 920-928 need correction as well:

920, 923, 928 Mi-24P - first date as above

921, 922 Mi-24D - should have #149 Falanga missiles instead of 9M114.

924 Mi-24D - first date 8/78 as unit #124

927 Mi-24W - should be renamed to Mi-24D

However, I can't confirm 80mm rockets nor 122mm rockets on German Mi-24. All photos known to me show them with 57mm ones.

Michal

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Here's your translation...
"The first of twelve Mi-24P came on the 15th of December 1989 to the Geschwader.", Geschwader is the Luftwaffe term for a "Wing" used together a Luftwaffe Wing. So you also above have the date they got them.

Regards,
Pat

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Here's a video showing the Hind with Luftwaffe markings/camo scheme being flown. They actually had them until (Checking dates.) sold to Poland and Hungary. Luftwaffe JG 73 flew the MiG-29G (NATO standard.) until ~2004 when they were sold to Poland. JG 73 flew them as an aggressor squadron but was also assigned an air defence role as well. Many of the former DDR aircraft flew with the Luftwaffe for years especially the transport aircraft that filled a deficiency in the Luftwaffe capabilities at the time. Germany just about RESET the MiG-29s to get them to the NATO "G" Standard, Hinds, Transport to even improve the depot level maintenance of the older MiGs they got. All DDR aircraft were serialized, painted and marked into the Luftwaffe system. I suspect the HINDs were used, but I'm still snooping around to find something more solid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DybJDlMqCGw

I'm finding "breadcrumbs" so I'll follow the trail a little longer concerning the HINDs, MiG 29 and later MiG 29G as upgraded along with the larger Transport aircraft are a definite yes. The MiG 24/or 25 (Can't remember now.), MiG-21 & 17 and other aircraft though maintained were either sold off or scraped with no record that I have found to indicate they were actually ever used by the Luftwaffe.
http://www.euro-t-guide.com/See_Coun..._Gatow_3-1.htm

Regards,
Pat

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

To set the record straight on the DDR fighters that transitioned into the Luftwaffe they would be the MiG-21, 23 & 29 also the export version of the Su- 17UM3/Ex Su-22UM3/UM3K (FITTER-G) primarily used as a trainer and also the final version Su-17M4/Ex Su-22M4 (FITTER K). Don't know if they processed the Recon Su-22M4R.
Sorry for any confusion, I'll blame it on catching up on the OGs after work!?! ;) Now to figure out what to blame it on when I start submitting the Patch Posts, but it'll have to be good though!?! :rolleyes: Found none of these jets (Except the MiG-29) in Luftwaffen colors on the net to include museums in country.
But here's a pic of a DDR Su-22M4 taken on 3/10/2011 @ Luftfmuseum in Rothenburg Germany...
Attachment 11969

Well I'm off to bed before another fun filled day at the "office", I hope you all have a great weekend!

Regards,
Pat

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

After a several-year service in Germany, MiG-29s were sold to Poland, for a reasonable price of 1 Euro ;)

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Alright German reunification is officially marked on Oct. 3 1990 after the DDR signed treaties with W. Germany and a separate one with England, France, Russia and the U.S. as required by treaty after WWII. We know the DDR NVA transport planes and LSK/LV MiG-29
(MiG-29G until Dec. 2003.) were fully operational w/Luftwaffe. As it turns out from the below source and others the DDR flew both the Hind D/P models. We have proof the Luftwaffe evaluated the Hind P. I now suspect the following...though as already noted all DDR equipment was fully integrated into German Bundeswehr, that the older MiGs and Hind D (Hungary I believe.) models were sold off/displayed/or scrapped. But Poland didn't get the Hind P until mid '92 it appears so far, though still checking. It doesn't take that long to do a flight eval. So the bottom line for the Hind P is and under the circumstances of the reunification (Trained Flight & Maint. crews, manuals, spare parts etc.) there is a definite window of opportunity that the Luftwaffe had these available if needed for border or combat patrols. I hope to get some answers from the below source and am awaiting activation of my account to do so. Along with getting permission to use these pictures if needed here for the DDR OOB as they are of excellent quality. Refing the thread in question/Pg. 4 as it touches on the 91/92 Hind P Luftwaffe use. This is worth it just for the DDR in flight pics alone throughout the thread as I couldn't find any good ones on Bing or Google.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=mig-29&page=4
These guys seem "serious" (Sounds familiar!?!) and might provide some useful info from the Wehrmacht, DDR to present.

Regards,
Pat

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

As I've written in a beginning, Poland got Mi-24D (only) in 1995 and Hungary as well or slightly before.

Michal.

BTW: if you're in this forum, ask if they used 80mm or 122 mm rockets under Mi-24.

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

For those that are interested, earlier this evening I asked the key questions that might have some impact on both the East Germany and Germany OOB's. Link provided below so as not to violate any one's possible Forum rules. By way of info RAMJET/Steve was a MiG-29 pilot for both the Luftverteidigung/Luftwaffe after unification. I won't be hard to find, currently on Pg. 7.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=354756
Have a great week!

Regards,
Pat

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

By way of an update...
As the DDR/German MiGs were the MiG-29A it's becoming clear that they were purely used as interceptors as designed. The MiG-29S had some very limited Air Ground capabilities, but it was the MiG-29SM which was designed to fulfill this role. It was this version that is the only one that could be called an F/B though again it's primary role still was to be an interceptor. Also before the MiG-29S all previous versions had very limited range, think earlier Bf-109s, you didn't want to get in a dogfight with it but it wasn't going to hang around long either.

So here's where I'm at for my list...
1. Germany OOB delete both the MiG-29 and Mil-8T. It is now clear the Luftwaffe MiG-29A/G was only used as an interceptor. Also it was the ONLY aircraft from the DDR to fly in the Luftwaffe beyond the evaluation phase.

3. East Germany OOB the same issue as above with the following possible exception of the SEAD version for which I'm awaiting conformation. This one in my mind is possible though not likely. This is why after all the Russians gave the DDR the very good MiG-23ground attack aircraft, also the DDR flew the most advanced versions of it as well which might be an issue of it's own in the OOB.

I of course have other data but the site given in the previous post is confirming all of it thus far and they've been very helpful to my requests.

To the Mil-24 HIND question no response, but my feeling is that since the Russians (Soviets) supplied everything that it is likely the DDR HIND D/P helos carried any of the following rockets, either the 54mm, 80mm, 130mm, 240mm rockets and or AGS-17 30mm GL. The Soviet/Russians did and do.

Regards,
Pat

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

I think we're going to have issues with the Mil-24 HIND helos. I don't know where the info came from saying that these helos carried the 122mm rockets but as I've posted previously, these helos didn't have them at least from the Soviet/Russian end. The following is typical of what I found doing a search under "Mil-24 HIND armament" online...
"One remotely controlled YakB-12.7 four-barrel Gatling type 12.7 mm machine gun, with 1,470 rounds, in VSPU-24 undernose turret with field of fire 60° to each side, 20° up, 60° down; gun slaved to KPS-53AV undernose sighting system with reflector sight in front cockpit; four 9M17P Skorpion (AT-2 `Swatter') anti-tank missiles on 2P32M twin rails under end plate pylons at wingtips; four underwing pylons for UB-32 rocket pods (each 32 S-5 type 57 mm rockets), B-8V-20 pods each containing twenty 80 mm S-8 rockets, B-13L pods each containing five 130 mm S-13 rockets, 240 mm S-24B rockets, UPK-23-250 pods each containing a GSh-23L twin-barrel 23 mm gun, GUV pods each containing either one four-barrel 12.7 mm YakB-12.7 machine gun with 750 rounds and two four-barrel 7.62 mm 9-A-622 machine guns with total 1,100 rds or an AGS-17 Plamia 30 mm grenade launcher with 300 grenades, up to 1,500 kg (3,300 lb) of conventional bombs, mine dispensers, night flares or other stores. R-60 (AA-8 `Aphid'), R-73 (AA-11 `Archer') and Igla air-to-air missiles fitted experimentally. Helicopter can be landed to install reload weapons carried in cabin. PKV reflector gunsight for pilot. Provisions for firing AKMS guns from cabin windows."
East Germany is showing 122mm rockets (Units 922 & 923.) and I don't know what other countries also are so equipped...yet.
Also several East German units will need to be deleted to include all MiG-29A and MiG-29M (Which as now known they never had.) which like the MiG-29M includes the Mil-24W HIND. Below is the response I recieved concerning the East German use of the MiG-29A as a possible SEAD unit as posted in the previous post as well.
Note: A little tone change which is my fault as I should've indicated "configurations offered" or some such as my wording caused the response.

"Pat,

What you say here about four East German MiG 29s being used for SEAD doesn't sound reasonable. As an air superiority aircraft designed for air defence why would the East Germans use four for SEAD purposes? That role would be better suited to a unit armed with the SU 25 and probably assigned to a Soviet unit rather than divert four MiG 29s from their basic role. Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Gordon"

And another response I just got from "RAMJET"/Steve LSK/LV(DDR)/LUFTWAFFE MiG-29A pilot...

"The LSK/LV as well as the Luftwaffe used the MiG-29 only as a fighter aircraft. There were some trials in the air-to-ground role with unguided rockets in the DDR times if I remember right, but these were just trials."

If you again wish to follow along...
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=354756&page=7

Bottom-line...
GERMANY OOB... DELETE UNITS 307 MiG-29 & 327 Mi-8T
East Germany OOB... DELETE UNITS 580, 910 & 911 MiG-29M & 125/927 Mi-24W HIND (Never had either in service.) MODIFY 922/923 HINDs with either the 57mm, 80mm, 130mm or 240mm rockets vice the
122mm rockets.

Now to fix the confusion "next door" I caused. One OOB at a time next the MiG-23, if they feel like it.

Regards,
Pat

Forgot to add the only modifiers to Soviet/Russian HIND weapons I'm aware of are from the Israeli version (Name escapes me now.) and the SAF SUPER HIND MKs of which their were two to three of.

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Pat..........I'll just start this off with JANES

...and forget the other 300,000 sites that back Janes up

So..... S-13 rocket *IS* a 122mm rocket and the B-13L pod is the aircraft pod and the B-13L-1 is the one used on helicopters, INCLUDING Mi-24/35 'Hind'


Therefore....

B-13 pods carry S-13 rockets and S-13 rockets are 122mm, NOT 130mm and having Hinds carry 122mm rocket pods is quite correct and I have no idea where you got this s-13=130mm rocket info.

Don

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

I've also written, that MiG-29s delivered in 80s/90s can carry only 80mm rockets or 500 kg bombs.

In fact, standard armament for non-Russian helicopters are 57 mm rockets. 80 mm rockets could have been delivered to peculiar countries or could be not. Bigger rockets were untypical in non-Russian service.
As for 240 mm rockets, the book "Soviet/Russian aircraft armament since WW2" by Yefim Gordon doesn't even list helicopters as standard carriers, but only mentions, that part of Soviet Mi-24V were modified to use this weapon.

130mm rockets S-13 are in fact 122mm caliber (according to the quoted book), hence confusion. However, I would be very surprised to see it under non-Russian helicopter. Poland for instance got literally several launchers for Su-22M4 (not helicopters), reportedly with some dozen rockets only, and they are not normally used.

BTW, Czechoslovakia developed its own 122mm aircraft rockets, simply adapting M-21OF Grad, but they don't seem to find wide use.

Michal

Re: mI-8 / mI-24 in German Service
 

Thank you both, concur on 122mm rockets for Mi-24. Agree Russia will fly with the heavier rockets and have reportedly used them in Chechnya. Russia also ordered 40 Mi-24M in May as part of their 2020 modernization plan. This is to include the ones already on hand that have been ordered and are flying within the last 2-3 years.
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110811/165710365.html
The Mi-24V/Mi-35M are interchangeable.

The MiG-29 issue is dead to me at this point as far as the Germanys are concerned. The only useful variant in the F/B version again was the MiG-29SM that for now it seems, only Russia flew. Interceptors are not good fighter bombers normally, as is already posted in this thread by the guys that flew them. The MiG-23 and it's dedicated full time mostly F/B offshoot the MiG-27 filled that role and were contemporaries to the MiG-29. In the first ref you'll notice the MiG-29A in Luftwaffe colors.
http://www.military-today.com/aircra...29_fulcrum.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig27/

I never argue with JANES, and of course I would find the refs that say 130mm rockets. Bottomline saved me a lot of wasted time over 8mm. So far the MiG-23 issue for East Germany looks good and they've already responed "next door" though I've seen some German info to suggust only the MiG-23BN might have been used as F/B and M versions as dediciated interceptors. Will get clarification. Seems the Soviets didn't trust them much for some roles as already pointed out concerning the SEAD issue. Kind of makes me wonder how many MiG-29 slots could be cut out of the Russian OOB.

Regards,
Pat