Stellar Manipulation
 

Well, I have a Q for y'all. . .

Why would you *not* constantly destroy suns, past midgame? How can it not be to your advantage to constantly deny your opponants room to grow, whilst using warp point tech. to prevent them from being able to enter your systems through any but the longest routes?

Anyhow, just a thought. . . I did this to the AI and it totally fell apart. . . it hit its max pop., couldn't get to me except through choke points, and my own warp points reached far behind the lines of the next opponent, until we reached the "edge" of the galaxy, whereupon I had a huge advantage in tech and gear. Is there any reason you more experienced players wouldn't do this?

[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: Argh ]</p>

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

I peronsally like to try and capture enemy planets, the only time I use the sun distroyer is in a roll play were I have a rogue ship. To me the sun distroyer is like nukes (IRL).

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Argh,
Please see my post under the War and Peace thread. Overall your strategy looks like it is a win every time. I personaly enjoy games where the chance of losing is greater. I enjoy both the challenge and the surprise. I guess it is a matter of "Play Style". Even though it is a bunch of ones and zeros, I still have qualms about destroying sentiant beings. I realise this is a unusual position, but then, no one ever insulted me by saying I was "normal" * wry grin *

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Against other human players this strategy only works to a point. Distance and supply isn't a huge problem for most human players once they understand the technique of fleeting with supply ships. And once Quantum Reactors are researched supply really isn't a problem at all.

Blowing up an opponents star system can be devastating sure, but given a large enough empire it's not a death sentance.

Star destoyers take a long time to build and a huge amount of resources to maintain. By the time you have them researched and built your opponent should be ahead of you in ships since you are spending a lot more on fewer ships.

Once you use it once they are going to protect their stars, so you have to knock them out very quickly. This requires a lot of star destroyers at the same time. And while you are setting this up you are vulnerable to a pre-emptive strike.

To do this against a human, it almost has to be a complete suprise, and you have to wipe out most of their systems in the first volley. Not easy to pull off.

Plus, it's not as fun as methodically taking planets one-by one from an opponent. Planning straetgy and counter-strategy. Fleets battles and what not.

Of course that Last point is purely my opinion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

To Argh:

Try playing with all warp points connected and no stellar manip (no more star destroyers or popping into the center of the AI empire with 50+ ships). It does seem to put the AI more on a level playing field - try it, you may like it....

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

I forget which game I played in the past where if someone used certain weapons (...was it nukes in Civ?), a diplomatic penalty occurred with all the other empires. I think Alpha Centauri did something similar with treaties...if you attacked someone without declaring war, everyone else gets displeased too.

You can probably see the point I'm getting to with Stellar Manipulations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oh, and to answer the first poster: I don't utilize that strategy because I follow a 'Geneva Conventions' kind of idea -- if the computer doesn't/can't use such weapons against me, I won't either.

zen

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Actually, here's how I used the strat: I blew up every system that was currently weakly inhabited or "buffer" systems that I could control temporarily. . . I didn't use it as an instant death-blow precisely because I figured this would be useless for PBW. As a very new player(I just got this *and* TWE for Christmas) I've been searching for the same techniques that were so useful in MOOII- optimization strategies.

Blowing the suns of "buffer" systems means that you *always* get a serious advance warning that your opponants are mounting a counter-attack, as even the fastest ships in un-modded SE:IV cannot cross from one warp point to another without being detected, if not intercepted and destroyed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

This is not an inconsiderable advantage when fighting an extended war- plus, as you take systems that aren't particularily nice. . . you can destroy them, too, and thus rid yourself of a system you can't afford to adequately defend and leave future opponants with an even longer rush distance. . .

So it's not about supplies. . . which quite frankly, I've never run out of, even in extended campaigns. . . it's about creating distance, denying resources/future gains, and denying your opponants the ability to surprise you while you continue to optimize your tech.

Needless to say, this ain't a "rush" strat. It takes a certain amount of both luck and pre-planning your tech tree to a high degree.

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Oh and as for being "fair" to the AI. . . hehe, I'm planning to play humans, which are the only decent opponants I'm likely to find. The AI's reaction is too clumsy to really tell me how this is going to work when I deploy it against humans in PBW http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And on the topic of diplomatic relations. . . well MOOII had a severe negative diplomatic penalty for using biological warfare. . . personally, I found it ridiculous that you could use Stellar Converters to slag every planet(but one) in a system, kill every living soul on the Last one, and reprocess the resulting asteroid rings into much better planets. . . with no diplomatic penalties, other than making the defeated empire even more angry.

At the very least, it'd be nice if SE:IV/G would at least INFORM players when a solar system has been. . . heh. . . radically altered. That should be shot heard 'round the galaxy, unless your Empire is composed of people with very heavy sacks over their heads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Argh:
[QB]&lt;snip&gt;... here's how I used the strat: I blew up every system that was currently weakly inhabited or "buffer" systems that I could control temporarily. . &lt;snip&gt;....Blowing the suns of "buffer" systems means that you *always* get a serious advance warning that your opponants are mounting a counter-attack, as even the fastest ships in un-modded SE:IV cannot cross from one warp point to another without being detected..&lt;snip&gt;.This is not an inconsiderable advantage when fighting an extended war- plus, as you take systems that aren't particularily nice. . . you can destroy them, too, and thus rid yourself of a system you can't afford to adequately defend and leave future opponants with an even longer rush distance. . &lt;snip&gt;.. it's about creating distance, denying resources/future gains, and denying your opponants the ability to surprise you while you continue to optimize your tech. ...&lt;snip&gt;<hr></blockquote>

It's a valid strategy I suppose. IMHO the same thing could be accomplished in a much more conventional way. Taking colonies from your opponent in these border systems, planting your own if needed. Planets in border systems do a fine job of giving advance warning, with the added advantage of giving a positive cash flow, however slight. After you blow up a system you have to keep ships on hand to be able to give you any warning. Ships that cost resources to maintain.

These border systems don't have to be heavily defended. A few ships or some troops just to keep the population happy. They will go to work busily producing resources for your empire that can be used to beef up your core systems.

But when it comes down to it its just a differance of play style. Either way works. You will find though that when you start blowing up systems the other players in the game will tend to join together out of self-preservation. Just human nature. But if you get a kick out of being the bad guys, go for it.

Geoschmo

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

You're probably right Geoschmo. . . players would probably gang up on me, *if* they catch it happening soon enough. That depends on who's communicating with whom, of course. . . and whether or not the blame for the solar eruption is pinned on *me* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif After all, if I start with this in systems that are being conflicted by other parties, for example, or other people's border zones. . . it'll just seem like WWIII started, and maybe everybody will get in the mood.

If I don't have the resources and economy for a protacted war at midgame(and I haven't found a convenient way to "rush" this tech without being painfully vulnerable otherwise), then I deserved to lose anyhow, as at that point(from what I've been able to gather about PBW games anyhow) the AIs are usually all toast and it's up to the players as to who gets the axe first.

Of course, if I can find an ally to watch my back. . . then kitty bar the door, as thus far this has proven a rather radical monkey-wrench. I'm not sure this means that I'm a "bad" guy. . . just efficient. The game is, after all, essentially about accounting(optimization) and relationships with other players adds another random factor to the mix.

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Yep, AI's don't typically Last long in PBW games. Pretty much they just serve as buffers between the players, and easy ways to pick up tech and planets when they inevitably surrender.

A lot of PBW games don't even bother with AI players. If they do the real game doesn't really start till they are gone. At least in my experience.

And I didn't mean bad in the literal sense. It's just a game after all. The best PBW games are the ones that start to feel like a story after a while. And every story needs villans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geo

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Interesting points of view.
Due to my time limitation I play against AI and I always thought to destroy planets or entire systems is not a useful strategy against the AI. Because in the time and with the resources that are needed to build these stellar manipulation ships I could build troop transports, troops and conventional attack ships and conquer these systems and planets, which allows me to expand much faster. But I always supposed the stellar manipulation might be very valuable against human players!
However you have one important advantage pointed out: the buffer system. If a system is completely destroyed it can't be colonized of course. This will prevent the AI to claim the next system - which is yours - and therefore he will not attack this system.

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Hrmm. I think I'll blow up every system surrounding my "core"- a group that represents my principal resources, etc. . . and see if I *ever* see an AI player show up. Interesting point there, I didn't know that the AI wasn't able to think about an area. . . I noticed it was overly preoccupied with individual systems(although it's not as flawed as MOOII's AI, which could be tricked into attacking the same system over and over again).

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Argh:
Hrmm. I think I'll blow up every system surrounding my "core"- a group that represents my principal resources, etc. . . and see if I *ever* see an AI player show up. Interesting point there, I didn't know that the AI wasn't able to think about an area. . . I noticed it was overly preoccupied with individual systems(although it's not as flawed as MOOII's AI, which could be tricked into attacking the same system over and over again).<hr></blockquote>

One of the funniest tricks in MOO II was possible with telepaths. Send a cruiser to take a planet, and it's not too difficult early in the game for a cruiser or two to do this, then the AI sends a fleet to take it back. Before it arrives GIVE the planet to another AI you want to get the first AI into a war with. Fleet arrives to 'take back' the planet -- instant war between the two AIs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Geoschmo,

Just checking. When you say the strategy of “fleeting with supply ships”, do you mean building the big ugly ships that do nothing except carry supplies and solar panels? These then get added to your fighting fleets to provide the supplies.

Basically, I am fishing for a new strategy and was wondering if you had something special up your sleeve.

Too bad I am 8-10 time zones ahead of you, I also worked New Year’s Eve and would have loved to knock out twenty or so turns. That is always the worst bit of a game and to get over it I have had to arrange get out of bed early while my friends back home stay up late. Somehow, they never want to get up early and let me stay late…

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
It's something the AI doesn't seem to be able to handle.<hr></blockquote>

Wait for the SE4G TDM-Races. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Another strategy for the "Fleet Oilier" is to keep one or two at Re-supply Depots on the periphery of your empire. Their purpose is to go out to meet incoming ships that have "over extended themselves", (not that I ever make that mistake).

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Saxon:
Just checking. When you say the strategy of “fleeting with supply ships”, do you mean building the big ugly ships that do nothing except carry supplies and solar panels? These then get added to your fighting fleets to provide the supplies.
…<hr></blockquote>

I am certain Geo meant supply ships of the sort you mention, they become an absolute neccesity when distance is involved, and also because attacking a fleet or planet uses up supplies thru weapons fire, so unless you want your fleet to become sitting ducks in the middle of enemy territory you need to resupply them somehow.

Re: Stellar Manipulation
 

Yep, you got it. Nothing fancy involved. Even in a low tech part of the game it's easy enough to build a couple ships with all supply bays and include them in your fleets. It greatly extends the distance your attack fleets can roam, and they are cheap to build.

It's something the AI doesn't seem to be able to handle.

Geoschmo