Suppression
 

In the real world a unit's suppression is largely determined by the volume and accuracy of enemy fire. Experience also plays a role in that experienced troops have a better idea of what to be afraid. However in the game it appears to be a random occurrence. A couple of examples:

1. A unit with no current suppression moved a hex, took one shot and fell back. When examined it had a suppression of 99!

2. A different unit with current suppression of 1 moved 3 hexes then got fired at by six units for a total of 14 shots. When examined the unit still had a suppression of 1.

The experience level of both units was between 70 and 75.

The other problematic thing about suppression is that it serves a dual purpose. Not only does it determine the unit's current operational capability but it serves a morale function in that it determines whether the unit retreats or routs.

Re: Suppression
 

There are quite a number of variables built into the code to ensure that if A then B happens you NO NOT always get C. Since no save game was provided there is no way to tell why what has happened occurred the way it did or what the exact circumstances were but it does not surprise me that a unit could be caught flat footed and immediately shut down with a suppression of 99 or that another unit could be prepared for fire and only endure a bit of suppression. I can tell you a unit could get 99 points of suppression after one shot but it's very very rare and in the active game I am playing now in the midst of a heavy battle none of my troops are at 99

Also, these are two hand picked examples. Do we assume then that your game involved more than just these two specific incidents or are you hand picking extreme examples to make some kind of point ?

Would you prefer a game where one shot = 1 point of suppression every time and 14 shots = 14 points of suppression ?

A few questions........

After the rally phase what was the suppression of the unit that had 99 the turn before ?

What was the leaders infantry command rating for the unit that went right to 99 and the one that went up only 1 after 14 shots ?

What was the circumstances of the 99 ? Did the shots come from point blank range or no ? Was it a HMG bust or rifle fire ? There's more that needs to be known that just "took one shot and fell back"

A unit gets "fired at by six units for a total of 14 shots"... how many hit ? What range were they fired from ? It seems obvious to me that this unit did not endure very accurate fire which is why it had little effect.

Lot's of questions better answered with a save game.

And YES, as in "the real world" a unit's suppression in the game is also "largely determined by the volume and accuracy of enemy fire" and experience IS factored into the equation so that experienced troops fair better than inexperienced ones but experienced troops can still sometimes break easily.. in real life and in the game


Don

Re: Suppression
 

If this wasn't a close range firefight it sounds like the unit took a casualty?

It's not that unusual for a squad to get 99 suppression and fall back after suffering a casualty.

It's probably a good way to model some of the chaos caused when a man in a squad gets wounded, dismembered or killed in front of his buddies/mates/comrades, and there may be the additional complication of life saving treatment and evacuation...

A good leader can soon get them back in the battle again.


Cross

Re: Suppression
 

Simples. 99 is the rout status, so they failed a rally test and pulled back in rout mode instead of merely retreat or less.

As Don says - suppression is not a simple mechanistic thing. This is not military chess. Units A and B will react differently to the same fire based on experience, actual dice throws, any saving throws from their leader etc, etc.

And unlike the original SSI code, we only add suppression if the fire from a missed shot is a near miss and a reaction test is failed. AFV which get hit by multiple "shell splinters" results (hits from small things that are only worth 1-2 or so S points) will tend not to go above buttoned status - unlike the original SSI game.

Bottom line - suppression is complex, and determined by random factors in morale tests.

Andy

Re: Suppression
 

You also have to take in mind other factors that effect suppression such as the loss of a nearby buddy who is in LOS especially if its armour. You cant predict whats going to happen occasionaly you get an odd result like everything else in the game but you can guess how he is likely to react.
With suppresion you do this all the time prep firing enough stuff to in your judgement to suppress the enemy before making a move for example & then having to deal with the guy that didnt conform & is still dangerous.If there wasnt an ellement of randomness you could predict the effects way to easily.
In my opinion the game works very well till units get to the experience 100 mark when they shrug off suppression with ease & become predictable supermen.
You learn the does n donts pretty quick, fighting in a freindly armour graveyard for instance is a really bad idea while having a platoon of elite troops accompany regulars or worse is a good idea.
The first examle is obvious its not a good place to be, the second the game models quite well. The elite units are more likely to keep performing under fire & produce kills, if they pull off something pretty good the regulars can get a big boost as in suppression lift bringing them back into the action.

Re: Suppression
 

99 is the MAX_SUPPRESS so the unit is bugging out big time.

It's been awhile since I had a unit that did that where the 99 stuck. If you walk into an ambush in a town and are thrown back in might be half that but certainly it is possible to push a unit to that point on one shot but it's unusual.

Don

Re: Suppression
 

He gives 2 examples,i suspect the first was wandering around aimlessly and "out of contact" of leaders.

The second appears to been "in contact" and did much better.

I could see conscipts or any low morale unit go into max supp. with one shot (although very rarely) as in the first case:)

Re: Suppression
 

There are also some attacks that cause more suppression than usual - flame weapons tend to be particularly nasty on this aspect. That said, they also tended to have rather scary morale effect in the real WWII too.

Re: Suppression
 

Thanks for your response. There are two possible approaches to handling suppression in my opinion - make the base result determined by volume and accuracy of fire adjusted by experience with a randomizer to adjust results to make them better or worse than the strictly calculated results; or make the base result random adjusted by volume and accuracy of fire and experience.

I picked the two extreme examples because they seemed to indicate that the results were basically random. To answer your questions:

"After the rally phase what was the suppression of the unit that had 99 the turn before ? " I believe it was in the 40's because the unit continued to rout.

"What was the leaders infantry command rating for the unit that went right to 99 and the one that went up only 1 after 14 shots ?" Don't know, didn't look.

"What was the circumstances of the 99 ? Did the shots come from point blank range or no ? Was it a HMG bust or rifle fire ? There's more that needs to be known that just 'took one shot and fell back'" The shot was rifle fire from either 3 or 4 hexes and caused a hit.

"A unit gets 'fired at by six units for a total of 14 shots'... how many hit ? What range were they fired from ? It seems obvious to me that this unit did not endure very accurate fire which is why it had little effect." No hits. Fire was rifle and LMG from ranges between 3 and 8 hexes.

"Lot's of questions better answered with a save game." I encountered these things when I was first learning the game and didn't know about the Forum or support. Now that I do, I will be sure to do a save whenever anything real odd happens.

Re: Suppression
 

Does this mean it's determined strictly by random factors? So if 1000 rounds are fired at a unit in a hex the results might be the same as if 10 rounds were fired?

Re: Suppression
 

The first squad took a casualty, which can often result in 99 suppression (rout status).

Casualties have the greatest affect on possible suppression.


Cross

Re: Suppression
 

A bit extreme but probably possible.
Its not arbitary random as I said you can predict the expected outcome, its percentages like playing a board game with 2 D6 dice as an anology which creates randomness.
So normaly yoy would expect to roll 7s or something near but you can roll snake eyes which many games use to triger a special event or rare event.
So if on the checks the game "rolls" 3 snake eyes in a row something very unusual happens.
Applies to virtually everything in the game I think & is no diffrent to the guy that pulls off a hit with a 2% to hit only to have it bounce off when it should have easily penetrated.
Doesnt happen often but it can.

NO... suppression is NOT determined strictly by random factors. Did I not say as much in post #2 ?

It involves your units experience, morale, the leadership qualities of the officer or NCO in change along with the distance the shots came because point blank fire has higher effects and it involves the speed the unit was moving when attacked and how many times it's been rallied. ALL that and more goes into calculation suppression and on top of that we introduce random factors to ensure the game does not become predictable. However, if all you do is judge the game by extraordinary examples that creates an skewed view of the game and how it works and next thing we know we are being asked if "suppression is determined strictly by random factors " but YES, if you play the game long enough you will see things like units taking more suppression than normal with fewer shots that normal and THAT'S NORMAL -------the random factors are there so the game isn't ...." OK he shot at me three times and hit once so I get 8 points of suppression"...... so YES, you may even see a case where "1000 rounds are fired at a unit in a hex the results might be the same as if 10 rounds were fired" even though this is a gross exaggeration of what happens in the game because 99 is the max you can suppress and after that nothing accumulates.

I guess my problem here is I cannot understand why you cannot understand why the game needs to occasionally give unpredictable results but it would seem in this case that others might have a better chance at explaining this but I will ask this..... was WaW really THAT predictable when it came to combat results ?

Don

Re: Suppression
 

On the contrary, I understand and agree with having unpredictable results. My problem is with extreme results not commensurate with the effort expended. One shot shouldn't take a unit out of action for the remainder of the scenario. Maybe if the unit was green, but this was a unit with experience in the 70's. In the other case you had two platoons open up on a unit with everything they had and it got no suppression. Heck, even if they were all firing into the air, the racket alone would have made the unit duck.

Re: Suppression
 

Bear in mind that outlier results don't determine a trend.

Yeah, sometimes a unit can be paralyzed from one or two casualties but it happens quite rarely.
Yeah, sometimes a unit can seem to ignore volleys of machine gun fire. It also happens quite rarely.


By and large, low experience/morale units will bail a lot, while high experience/morale troops will be very resilient. Do a 1941/42 game of americans vs japanese to view the difference, or 41 soviet vs german.

Re: Suppression
 

Really ? One shot took a unit out for the entire scenario ???

Really ? :re:

One shot ??

Please do post it.

We would ALL like to see that save game.


Don