Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Finnish OOB 6.0

First of all, thanks for the big change between 5.5 -> 6.0 in Finnish OOB. Here are some things I found comparing the OOB to FDF pages and other resources found.

Unit 015 T-55MS
~70 T-55s were upgraded to T-55M in 1989-1992
Instead of active IR they used to equip it seems that a Swedish, passive IR camera was installed in replacement. Also fire control system is valued higher than in T-72 (FC 20 in OOB) of the same era.
Suggestion: possibly replace vision 30 with vision 40 and fire control to 25. I couldn't find another source to back this up, so it's up to you.

EDIT: Turns out that it was passive IR but only night vision, not TI equipment. So Vision 30 is appropriate! However, stabilization / fire control could be updated

Source: Finnish Tank Guild blog post about the history of the tanks: http://hyvarinen.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog-post.html
"Seitsemisenkymmentä T-55-vaunua modernisoitiin 1980-1990-lukujen taitteessa. Modernisoinnin tärkeimpiä osa-alueita olivat ruotsalaisperäinen ammunnanhallintajärjestelmä passiivisine pimeätoimintavalmiuksineen, putken lämpösuojus, T-54-ajoilta palautettu ilmatorjuntakonekivääri ja savu- ja valaisinkranaatinheittimet. Jonkin aikaa T-55M ilmeisesti oli Suomen panssarinyrkki (moderni ammunnanhallintajärjestelmä antoi sille huomattavan edun muutoin tehokkaampaan, kolmannen parlamentaarisen puolustuskomitean suositusten mukaan vuodesta 1984 hankittuun T-72-vaunuun nähden), mutta pääaseen vaatimaton kaliiperi 100 mm ja peruskonstruktion yleinen vanhanaikaisuus johtivat siihen, että T-55-kalustolle ei ole koulutettu miehistöjä vuoden 2001 saapumiserien jälkeen."

"Approximately 70 T-55 tanks were modernized in the late 1980's to early 1990's. The most important replacements were the Swedish made fire control system with passive night vision abilities, the heat protection (?) of the barrell and T-54 era AAMG and smoke and illumination grenades. For some time T-55M apparently was the leading tank in FDF (modern fire control system gave it a significant advantage over otherwise better performing, third parliamentary defense committee's recommended T-72 tank from 1984 and later) but it's modest 100 mm caliber and the old fashioned basic construction lead to abandondment of training new conscripts after 2001 arrivals."


Unit 033 BMP-2FIN
In 2011 FDF had requested offers for midlife upgrade of BMP-2 so it might be on it's way. Anyway 2011 is too early a guess, 2015 is my educated guess. Or then it's pushed back beyond 2020 or even cancelled altogether, depending on financial situation all over Europe.
Suggestion: Push the availability date to 1/115

Source: http://www.eda.europa.eu/EbbWeb/View...?Noticeid=3432
http://articles.janes.com/articles/I...mmunition.html


Units 035-037 NA-140 Nasu TOW
Unit class is 19, SPATGM which in the game code causes problems to movement compared to snow vehicles, which have an advantage in mud etc. even when there's no real life difference.

Suggestion: Add a move class Snow Track to be applied in bad terrain such as mud, volcanic ash, snowdrifts etc. if it is not too complicated to do in code.

Unit 070 SS-11 Team
Purchased in 1962, in 1966 FDF already possessed 164 SS-11 missiles.
Suggestion: available from 1/1965 or 1/1966

Source: http://yhdistykset-akaa.fi/reservila...inaari2009.pdf p. 15, latter table: status in July 1st 1966


Unit 093 23mm AAG
23mm ZU-23 was modernized heavily in late 90's. The current FDF page does not have information on AAGs but archive.org still contains information from 2007.

Suggestion: Set vision to 40, Range finder to 22

"Alkuperäinen 23 mm:n tykki on täysin mekaaninen ja sen ansiosta erittäin kenttäkelpoinen ja käyttövarma. Tykki suunnataan ja laukaistaan käsin. Ammunta perustuu tykin miehistön tekemiin näköhavaintoihin. Tykkiä ei voida liittää ulkopuoliseen maalinosoitusjärjestelmään.
-- --
Modernisoidun tykin tulitoiminta perustuu maalista mitattuihin etäisyys- ja kulmanopeustietoihin sekä ennalta annettuihin laskentaparametreihin. Näiden perusteella tietokonepohjainen tykkilaskin laskee ammunnan ennakkokulman. Tykki on varustettu moottorisuuntauksella ja sähköisesti ohjattavalla laukaisulla. -- --
Tähtäinjärjestelmän keskeinen osa on laseretäisyysmittari, johon sisältyy tähtäinoptiikka tähtäyskuvioineen. -- -- Tähtäinjärjestelmään kiinnitetty lämpökamera mahdollistaa pimeätoiminnan."

"The original 23mm gun is fully mechanical and therefore very reliable on the field. The gun is manually targeted and fired. The shooting is based on the crews observation and it is not possible to combine it with external systems..
-- --
The modernized version is based on the measured distance and angular velocity information in addition to pre-calculated parameters. The targeting computer calculates the necessary overhead. The gun is equipped with adjustment motors and electronic firing system. -- --
The central part of the aiming system is a laser range finder which includes the sighting optics. -- -- The IR camera attached to the targeting system allows night time operations."

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/200706300...4&equipment=79


Unit 095 30mm AAG
No information whatsoever found except for the Finnish designation 30 ITK 62. Only 27 units, so possibly not in active use at any point.
Made by Oerlikon, out-of-service date not found. Maybe put it to end 12/99? Now found only in museum Ilmatorjuntamuseo
Suggestion: end date to 12/99

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/200706300...4&equipment=79 (not listed)
http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/page.php?page=tykit


Unit 099 35mm AAG Radar
Radar was modernized in early 2000's (let's assume 2003). The modernization included radar and control replacements, added laser R/F, CCTV and IR.

Suggestion: change end date to 12/2002, create new unit with start date 1/2003 with FC 110, R/F 22, Vision 40


Unit 101 40mm AAG
Removed from active duty in the 80's, scrapped in 2000.

Suggestion: stretch the end date to 12/2000

Source: http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/page.php?page=tykit


Units 102, 103 57mm AAG / 57mm AAG Radar
Removed from service in 2000

Suggestion: set the end date to 12/2000

Source: http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/page.php?page=tykit


Units 167, 168, 169 152mm Field Gun
Scrapped along with T-72s and bunch of other stuff. I believe they're all in fact the same howitzer (all howitzers except 122mm are gone), with modernization types differing.

Suggestion: end date 12/2007

"Year 2007 Finnish military declared 152 H 88-37A howitzers obsolete and now they are getting scrapped."

Source: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm


(Note) Unit 170 152mm Field Gun
Not listed in FDF pages but probably at least stored. Some youtube videos by conscripts show firing this gun in 2008.


Units 190, 191, 192 152mm FG Platoon
See Units 167-169
Suggestion: end date 12/2007


Unit 318 ZP-ZU-23M
see Unit 099
Suggestion: end date 12/2002, new unit 1/2003 with FC 110, R/F 22, Vision 40


Unit 320 ZSU-57-2M
The modernization project was seen as a failure, prototype disassembled and ZSUs removed totally from service in 2006. More Marks
Suggestion: Remove altogether

"Vaunuja tuotiin Suomeen 12 kpl vuosina 1960-1961. Vaunujen käyttö päättyi lopullisesti vuonna 2006."

"Modernisointiprojekti oli aloittamisaikanaan perusteltu hanke, mutta aika ajoi sen ohi. Hanke lopetettiin vuonna 1999, kun Puolustusvoimissa yleisesti luovuttiin neuvostoliittolaisperäisten asejärjestelmien kehitystyöstä. Modernisoitu prototyyppivaunu purettiin vuonna 2001."

"During 1960-1961 12 pieces were imported to Finland. The use of these vehicles ended for good in 2006."

"At the time the modernization project was a well-justified one, but development in FDF overran it. The project was cancelled in 1999 when FDF gave up modernizing soviet era weapon systems in general. The modernized prototype was disassembled in 2001."

Source: http://yhdistykset-akaa.fi/reservila...inaari2009.pdf


Unit 356 T-55M KTM-6
No more in active duty but not scrapped. Tank guild blog post mentioned that they're better built than the T-72s that were scrapped. KMT misspelled in names (multiple units), should be KMT instead of current KTM.

Suggestion: end date to 12/120

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

On the list..........

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Couple of minor things I failed to mention:

Unit 356 T-55M KTM-6
Unit 361 T-55M BTU/Dozer

Ammunition upgrade is missing, Unit 015 T-55MS has it.

Suggestion: Change weapon 1 from 97 (100mm D10TG 60) to 98 (100mm D10TG 79) and give some sabot ammunition

And really minor thing:
Unit 015 T-55MS
Incorrect AAMG 52 (NSVT), should be 54 (DShK)

Source: http://hyvarinen.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog-post.html

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Don etc, "keeping an eye on this" material, nothing final now, but a couple notable end dates 12/2016:

092, 093 23mm AAG
321, 322 Itpsv 91 AA, Itpsv 2010 AA although no replacement has been given - maybe keep 'til 2020 until replacement is announced?
561 SA-11 Buk-M1

FDF held a public press event where they represented the future plans for material upgrades as Finland will abolish personnel mines as per Ottawa treaty.

(In Finnish) http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/d8...df?MOD=AJPERES

Army will be the focus point in 2012-2020, 2010-2012 it was navy and air forces.

Page 6 is the important one: by 2016 most of the AT weaponry is to be replaced. Pasis (APCs) are to be modernized from 2017 onward, and Nasus to be replaced (Snow tracked vehicles). 81mm, 120 mm mortars and 122mm howitzer are usable as they currently are.

Now starts the guesswork: AT weaponry to be removed from service are most definitely M72, APILAS and 95 S 58–61 heavy recoilles. What's there to replace them? Probably more ATGMs and MBT-LAWs, but it's all guesswork.

Some artillery pieces (not specified) are going to be scrapped as well, but probably not SP arty.

Vehicles: NASUs definitely and maybe BMP-2 (and/or MT-LBs? BTR-50?), XA-180 / 185 will be taken out of service as well as older trucks.

As anti-personnel mines are to be destroyed, FDF already decided to start negotiating about obtaining small Oribter reconnaissance planes and is updating the AT mines, adding more Claymore type manually released mines. Also equipment for night vision, area surveillance, TI-GPS-Laser R/F equipment ("MARS", p. 29).

From 1/2009 on (p. 32) the snipers have had an optional TI scope in use
From 9/2011 on (p. 32) the section TI equipment has been in use.

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Unit 349 NASAMS II

"NASAMS II FIN -järjestelmän varusmieskoulutus aloitetaan suunnitelmien mukaan Panssariprikaatissa vuonna 2012, josta johtuen jo tässä vaiheessa on järjestelmä saanut nimen ITO12. Kaluston vastaanotto ja henkilökunnan koulutus käynnistyy vuoden 2011 aikana ja ensimmäiset joukkotuotetut yksiköt valmistuvat vuoden 2013 aikana."

NASAMS II FIN system will be used in training conscripts according to the plans in Parola Armoured Brigade in 2012 and beacuse of this the system has been named ITO12. The arrival of equipment and training of the officers will be starting during the year 2011 and first combat ready troops will be out during 2013."

- The platform is SISU 4x4 all terrain truck
- Radar is AN/MPQ-64F1 "Sentinel", no idea on the performance but according to the document it's already in use in Norway
- Electro-optical sensors include TI, CCTV, laser range finder. Max targetting distance is 40 km.

source: FDF pages http://tinyurl.com/cpmmptv

Suggestions (current values):
Availability 1/2013 - 12/2020 (1/2015-)
Size 4, same as Sisu trucks (5)
Fire Control 125 (0)
Vision 40 (0)
EW 7 (0)
Crew 3 (8)

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

dnmt,
1. Are the "Jourkkotuotetut" units in your source front line AA units? I assume so, but I could see the ? asked only because my translator(s) didn't translate that word, issue being to clarify that these aren't test and evaluation and or training units. As your source indicates the first units will be equipped through 2013, so wouldn't JAN 2014 be a better compromise date to allow for any delays?

2. As was transferred from the Patch Post to the SP/SPAA thread Pg. 4 Post #35 Item A2 I was going to address the same issue on FC, VISION and EW. I generally agree with them and wonder the following if the EW would be better at 8(?), Vision 45(?), for the EW issue the network can shutdown once the AIM 120 AMRAAM has detected the target by it's own on board radar system. Also system operability and capabilities will greater as the radars are not as centralized as some other systems now that Finland and Norway are using the improved SENTINAL Radars.

3. See the April 1/11 note under the "Contract" section the SISU 8x8will be the main platform while the SISU 4x4 will act in the supply and support roles. The same info is in the SISU refs posted with the above mentioned Item A2. This why I only submitted the 8x8 and that as I well know you're aware of (That's a compliment.) the same thing as I concerning the general feeling about support vehicles i.e. radars and such and dare I say trucks in general as the "great" truck debate went on for a very short time around the time this was submitted in the PP Thread.

The below ref. covers all the above with most of the technical and performance data as well.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...Systems-05398/

Pic:
Attachment 11864



Regards,
Pat

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Joukko = Mass, troop, group
tuottaa = to produce

Direct translation would be mass produced, but in English it'd make you think of battle droids or something...

Okay, let me open this up a bit. Finnish troops are trained from conscripts who serve 6, 9 or 12 months depending on assignment. The 2013 will be the first year they finish with the conscripts' training and list the troops in reserve units in their books. So the training will start in 2012 (probably NCOs trained from Jan 2012) and the first troops to get back home will probably be released in the beginning of year 2013 (Like January 4th or something). Usually when equipment gets to the public web page and when conscript training is fixed then the equipment is in use. I remember getting hands dirty on stuff that was yet to come, like night vision equipment and TI equipment in 1999, but it was only on evaluation and not in mass use and never listed in their standard equipment list.

The brigade lists the available positions for conscripts: http://tinyurl.com/c3nl86t
RO, NCO (362 days) and private/lance corporal (180 days)

Note that in Finnish system the RO / NCO are trained for 182 days before the rest of the unit troops arrive so they are all completed at the same time.

It's hard for me to say anything about the performance, I'm such a novice when it comes to AA troops (tho I applied to get there, but they tried to move me to artillery long way from home and I pulled the "developing athlete, can't leave my team" card and they assigned me to the Guard Jaeger regiment along with other athletes...) that I have absolutely no standing in the performance section, only a gut feeling. I feel that the values given by you could be correct.

This could be correct.
http://tinyurl.com/bt6xnfz shows the platform on 8x8, but the text goes "jota voidaan kuljettaa millä tahansa vaatimukset täyttävällä ja koukkulaitteella varustetulla kuorma-autolla.": "which can be transported with any truck that fulfills the requirements and has a pulling hook device (for which I don't know proper English term)." Requirement is to be able to carry 7200 kg.

4x4 is pretty much on the limit, so I think it is out. The 4x4 might refer to other parts as you said. 6x6 could be used, but I think for the time we should stick to 8x8, as there are at least some proof that it's used. http://www.sisudefence.fi/sites/defa.../public/83.jpg

Thanks for your input!

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Oh, the 8x8 is the armoured version of the truck E13TP, recognizable by the cockpit resembling of an insect's head.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sisutruck/

"In April 2009, the Finnish Defence Forces ordered 12 heavy-duty 4-axle Sisu E13TP 8x8 model trucks. These are to be delivered by 2014 as part of a €25m order for 80 Sisu trucks to be used for air surveillance and air defence systems. The Sisu 8x8 trucks will be used as mid-range air surveillance radar carriers. Sisu will supply the trucks in cooperation with Thales Raytheon Systems."

Steel armour level 1 all around?

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Just to leave a note for myself:

http://www.suomensotilas.fi/pdf/huom...ysluettelo.pdf

Articles about Guard Jaegers, residential area fighting and equipment.

ACOG 77s and Aimpoint CS 74s seem to have been taken to use at that time.

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Today there was a news article on Helsingin Sanomat about the vehicle upgrades to come: http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Armeijan+va...a1305571811386 (In Finnish)

in short:
-Upgrade SISU XA vehicles (180/185 series or all? Scrap 180/185 and upgrade 200s? - not mentioned here)
-SISU NA-120 tracked vehicles are to be replaced with Norwegian owned Swedish built ones (Bandvagn)
-Upgrade BMP-2, prototyping offers have already been asked
-In a couple of years a decision will be made on Leopard 2A4 tanks. Either an upgrade or a purchase of more modern and less used ones.

I'll check later if the ink on dead tree version has more information as they suggest at the end.

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

I have the Helsingin Sanomat news article which provides some in-depth information:

Vehicles

The Sisu NA-140 will be replaced with Bv 206's from Norway if Norway will sell them enough. First test batch has been received already.

Sisu XA-180/185 will be upgraded. First prototypes will be field tested this year, some pictures have been in the internet suggesting improvement on the armoring similar to XA-200 series. The upgrades should start in 2013 and continue for "a decade as there are hundreds of them in use."
http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/multim...ium_87038b.jpg

Leopards will either have an upgrade or then the budget will be used to purchase them used from somewhere. The target is to have them usable until 2030's.

BMP-2 (acquired 1988-1992) will be upgraded in 2-3 years.

Approx. 100 MT-LBs were bought from Sweden last year to replace BTR-50s for good. They have arrived lately and are being inspected.
http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/metalli/article598749.ece

AT weaponry
M72 A5 (local designation 66 KES 75) will be out of service by the middle of this decade. The replacement will be bought next year and the purchase will be in the order of thousands.

Apilas will be replaced by MBT-LAW (local designation NLAW). The replacement in training will take place from next year on.

95 S 58-61 "Musti" has been out of training from this year on.

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Nasu NA-140
Inconsistent speed value
Units 35, 36, 37 have a move speed of 16
Units 43, 334 have a move speed of 18

Nasu NA-140 is slightly faster than Bv 206, which has speed 16-17 depending on country (some inconsistencies there). I believe 18 is the proper value.

Modify
Units 35, 36, 37: move speed to 18

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Here we go... re: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48894

Sisu XA-* with OWS platforms lack FC values and are classified as non-turreted AAMGs suffering from being buttoned.

Turreted NSV-12.7s (PML - 127 - OWS) are in XA-203, XA-203+ and AMV Patria APC (XA-360). Statistics are probably quite similar to Swedish Patgb 203 A, albeit not the same weapon. Turret elevation is up to 48 degrees, so AFAIK AA-capable. re: http://www.armyrecognition.com/finla...photos_uk.html

Modify
Weapon 069
12.7mm NSV TMG
Weapon class: 19 (AA capable Auto Cannon)

Modify
Units 051, 052, 054
Weapon 1: 69
Fire control: 5
Range Finder: 8

Add
Patria APC
Weapon 1: 90 (40mm KrKK 05)
Fire control: 5
Range Finder: 8

XA-360 at FDF page, see bottom
"Asevarustus Kongsberg Protector RWS, jossa 12,7 mm raskaskonekivääri 2005 tai 40 mm kranaattikonekivääri 2005"

Weaponry Kongsberg Protector RWS, with 12.7 mm heavy machine gun 2005 or 40mm AGL 2005

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Now that I really started going and the navy equipment page is there...

Navy 130 53 TK

Modify
Unit 593 130mm Turret
Vision: 40
Range finder: 22

"Tykkilaskin, laseretäisyysmittari ja lämpökamera"
"Cannon computer (or something), laser range finder and a TI camera"

Note:

Antiship missile -85 (MTO-85) is a tricky one. As there isn't a surface-to-water missile this could be ignored, but at least RBS-17 is included as an ATGM
MTO-85 on Navy site

On board of some ships (Hamina, Rauma class), carried by a truck if on land. Too big and clumsy, can't limit to shoot only on water? Then we can just skip this.

Rannikko-ohjus 06 (Spike ER)

Add
Weapon: Spike ER
(Copy from any country, such as Romania (slot 170) or Chile (slot 170))

Add
Unit: ROhj-06 team
Unit class: 206
Available from: 1/08 (usually conscript training about 2 years after acceptance pointed by the year in the designation)
Move: 1
Vision: 40

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

TRACK/FOLLOW

New purchases coming:
http://m.iltalehti.fi/articles/s/uut...05944_320.html

A CGI picture: http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/e0...afcfda9b1133/1

A patrol / transport boat for navy:

The Navy has signed an agreement on Monday regarding an acquisition of 12 fast boats. The introduction of vessels for transport and combat in service will occur between 2014 and 2016. They can be used for both domestic and international defense tasks.

The vessels are highly equipped and they employ "the latest domestic technology, domestic production and domestic work force."

Navy vessels are multi-functional, faster than their predecessors, and contain a variety of equipment. They have a ballistic protection and are to be equipped with remote-controlled turrets. Boats are protected against NBC warfare.

The vessels are equipped with navigation and battle sensors, such as the thermal imaging camera, day vision camera, radar and sonar equipment.

Soldiers have been kept in mind for they'll have an ergonomic seating, up to 25 people. Additional equipment are storing facilities for weapons etc.

Vessels are appropriate for fire support missions, transport and evacuation, surveillance and reconnaissance missions as well as maintenance and HQ tasks.

SPECIFICATIONS:

U700-class
- Registered for 32 people (25+7)
- 19 m long (62 ft)
- 5 m wide (16½ ft)
- Marching speed of over 35 knots laden
- Top speed of over 40 knots

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

ADD

Tuuli Class hovercraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuuli_class_hovercraft
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Merivoimien...a1350963389909
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/16+miljoona...a1350963135186

The hovercraft was planned to be part of the fleet of four hovercrafts to protect the capital archipelago but due to budget cuts only one order was done and completed. Changes in budgets lead to change of plans and the hovercraft has been looking for potential buyers since 2003.

"Fleet 2000" was supposed to consist of 4 Tuuli class hovercrafts and 2 Hamina class missile boats.

Tested and approved in June 2002. Currently unarmed as the project was halted before weapons systems (Umkhonto SAM, RBS-15, Mine-laying systems) were installed.

Add
Unit: ITA Tuuli
Unit Class: 239 (Hovercraft)
Nation: 65
Available from: 6 / 102
Until: 12 / 120
Cost: 72
Crew: 10
Size: 14 (Same as KVP Utenok, Unit 935 in Russian OOB)
Carry: 25 (Same as KVP Utenok, Unit 935 in Russian OOB)
Weight: 102 (Same as KVP Utenok, Unit 935 in Russian OOB)
Speed: 31 (slightly slower than KVP Utenok)
Swim: 31
EW: 0 (probably unequipped)
Radio: 91
Vision: 0 (probably unequipped)
Weapons: none (or NSV AAMG if any)
Armour: 4 all around, 5 for HEAT (more modern than Utenok)
Survivability: 6
ROF: 6, if equipped with weapons
SD: 0
Icon: 3283 looks good to me

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

MODIFY / REVIEW
Looking at heavy RCLs, I can not help but to notice that Finnish 95mm RCL seems to be out of line comparing to other RCLs in multiple nations.


RCL___________Eff. range___Max. Range__Weight (kg)_Speed (crew)
--------------------------------------------------------------
B-10 RUS ....... 400 m .... 800m (16) .... 85.3 .... 6 (5)
B-11 RUS ....... 450 m .... 900m (18) ... 304.8 .... 3 (5)
106mm M40 USA . 1350 m* .. 1350m (27) ... 209.5 .... 3 (6)
95S58-61 FIN ... 700 m .... 700m (14) ... 140.0 .... 1 (6)

*) Unreliable source: wikipedia

As the table above shows, the effective range given typically for the gun is about half of the maximum range in game (in parentheses given in hexes). This is not the case for 95 S 58-61 as well as for the 106mm M40, where they're equal to effective range. Some sources list even higher effective ranges for 106mm M40. As for the speed the 95 S 58-61 seems to be in a completely different category as the weight is less than the heavier counterparts. It probably should sit somewhere around 4 hexes / turn.

Also notable is that FDF lists night scope equipment in the equipment page, suggesting that the Vision attribute should get a notch up to 15 or 20.

Suggestion:
Modify unit 390: Speed to 4
Modify unit 391: Speed to 4, Vision to 20
Modify weapon 48: Range to 21 (1.5 times effective range)
Modify weapon 47: Range to 21

Sources
Effective ranges from:
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/...lless&offset=0 (B-10, B-11)
www.mil.fi (95 S 58-61)

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Piece by piece additions, sorry about them:

Unit 164 130mm Field Gun, Start date is wrong (currently 1/92). Soldiers' guide from 1980 (approved May 2nd 1979) ISBN 951-25-0135-x lists 130 K 54 (= M46) as the main heavy artillery piece. It has been used "since 60's", but I've failed to find better reference. Probably acquired at the same time as 122 H 63 (Unit 160) and could start at 1/67.

Suggestion:
Modify, start date to 1/67

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Remove
Patria IFV

Patria IFV with autocannon, stabilizer etc. was probably a guesswork addition at the time but there seems to be no such thing in FDF. Instead APC variants with turreted MG and AGL. The IFV should probably be removed altogether as there's no such thing in sight. Also XA-203s with autocannons are yet to be found.

In Afghanistan operation there's been XA-203s in separate configuration, but I'm unable to find any reference if there was additional HEAT protection or anything. One thing is for sure, the weapon was the standard 12.7 mm TMG.

Sorry, can't link straight to the pictures: http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/Er...si/Afganistan/

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

It's now 1/62 to match the start date of the same off map guns. (U 183)

Don

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

...more likely the result of adding it based on someones helpful recommendation that this certainly going to be added based on the manufacturers optimistic predictions which is why now I don't add ANYTHING to the OOB until it's ACTUALLY in the troops grubby little hands which is why you won't find any changes in the OOB based on info like " XXX will be out of service by the middle of this decade and the replacement will be bought next year ....."

I know I've said this before but maybe it was in a PM to someone else. I will simply ignore ANY info on what MIGHT be produced and am now ONLY interested in weapons and equipment that is actually in service so everyone can save themselves a lot of time and effort by NOT posting things like the the patrol boat "Track follow". I don't care, I don't even cut and paste them to the list and they have no relevance until they are commissioned.

We USED TO be interested in things like this to add some flavour to the future years covered by the OOB's but I'm fed up with creating Icons for things that never see the light of day and then having to pull them from the OOB's.




Don

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

I hear you. The reason why I'm also placing these things that are yet to come is to give the links for later use for specifications or more information. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting you guys to track and follow every piece of equipment ordered or negotiated around the world. Instead I use this kind of information to make our home-cooked OOBs to use in our battles between friends.

Patria IFV looks to be based on one configuration Patria is indeed selling, but not the one that FDF was buying.

And now for something completely real. FDF has bought M134D "Minigun" gatling guns for use with the NH-90 helicopters. First batch is expected to be delivered before the end of this year when they will practice shooting and maintaining them on platforms on ground. They'll be installed on helicopters the next year.

The conscript magazine: link, page 13

......when they are actually in use, let me know.

Don

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Bv 206's (There was a test batch of 10 units) have been accepted and they will enter service at the change of the year. The NA-140's are to be sold by 2017.

There was a longer article in the printed version, which stated that the units are shipped in December 2012 and they're going to start using them from 2013 onwards.

BV 206 at FDF page

Helsingin Sanomat news article

Modify:
Units: 035, 036, 037, 043: end date to 12/2017

One thing I am uncertain about is the TOW versions (035,036,037) of Nasus. I know for a fact that the mechanical compability to use TOW missiles wherever you have NSV's exist (the NSV mount used is specifically made compatible), but I have no idea if NA-140 was ever used / planned to be used in this combination. So in theory you could plug the TOW to XA-series APCs as well. The same goes for MD-500 which seems to be equipped with Spike anti-tank missiles.

MLRS issues in Finnish OOB.
I'm getting mixed messages with my google searches on whether Finland has cluster munition ammunition or not.

"The cluster munition rockets (M26) which created a fuss were not in the order" http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.s...2008/02/607129
"M30 is in the inspection."

The most reliable note here is the public parts of the thesis (2009), http://publications.theseus.fi/bitst...pdf?sequence=2
about MLRS storage logistics.
AT-2 (mines), M28 (fire practise use) have been bought and are in storage
M30 (GMLRS) investigated
ATACMS investigated

In 2005-2010 the goal was to train conscripts with AT-2 payloads, in 2011-2016 to get CM/ATACMS payloads and train conscripts with them. There's little if any information on the status of the M30 / ATACMS payloads.

In the absence of better information (we know that before 2011 there was no M30 in Finland) and ATACMS is still in the order phase (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...land_12-25.pdf)

Modify:
Unit 557 MLRS Platoon, From 1/2011

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

NASAMS II units presented for media:
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Satojen+mil...a1354255221733

NCOs have been trained for the task since September, the privates to be trained will enter their service in Jan 2013.

Availability 6/2013 - 12/2020

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Note, Don, that later on the above specifications were tweaked a little bit based on the comparison to other units.

Vision 40 -> 45
EW 7 -> 8
Armor: Steel/HEAT: 1 all over

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Investigating, skip this Don

Has anyone any idea whether FDF is using XA-185 + TOW combination? I found lots of forum posts where people have seen Bv 206 + TOW or NA-140 + TOW combinations and even used them, but for XA-185 + TOW I only remember having heard about it in the FDF and coming up with some pictures from the internet:
http://www.militaryimages.net/photop...php/photo/8381

Wikipedia lists "some equipped with TOW turrets" but... no references.

Just prototypes? Are they disassembled already?

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Modify

BMP-1's were modernized in 1991-1994. They were equipped with the same Wegmann smoke grenade launchers as T-55MS got back in 1989. These smoke screens were used in BMP-1 and BMP-1Ps models.

Modify units 028, 029:
EW 3 (1 VIRSS shot)

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=17606
Pictures showing clearly the FDF insignia and smoke grenade launchers, right from the barrel.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/c...MP-1_FI_01.jpg
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/c...MP-1_FI_02.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-1_variants#Finland


Add
Finally, by accident, I was able to find a picture of a PaSi XA-203 with an ATGM.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1...iaxa2030uy.jpg

Copy unit 051 over 052 or 053 (no proof of XA-203+ ever existing)

Add weapon 165 PstOhj 83M or 169 Spike MR with appropriate number of shots (4?). Same availability dates etc.

As I served before 2002 when XA-203 was not available but I heard about XA-185 being able to host an ATGM I believe there should also be a XA-185 variant - but like I said, it's only hearsay and projection from this one picture of XA-203 with an ATGM.

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Sorry, should've checked them all at the same time.

BMP-2 also received the 72mm smoke grenade launchers, 6 units in total to be launched in a 3+3 combination.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nish_BMP-2.jpg

Modify:
Units 031, 032
EW to 4 (2 VIRSS shots)

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Modify

Supercedes XA-360 changes in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...8&postcount=13

I have no idea how this escaped my eye. Incorrect weapon, unit 054 Patria AMV.
Should be: .50 cal MG M2HB QCB
Additionally, copy the unit to replace the IFV (Which was rejected after prototype tests) with an APC equipped with an AGL. Add stabiliser and bump up range finder.

My estimates:
Stabiliser value: 5 (As with IFV had)
Range finder: 22
Vision: 40
Fire Control: 30?

Fire control used to be 5, the same as I proposed for XA-203. IFV version had a FC value of 30, but I have no idea where it comes from. XA-203 has a different (lighter) type of turret, OWS.

http://tinyurl.com/bl77yrp

"Re-introduction of Browning M2 heavy machine gun in Finland happened with the remote controlled turrets in XA-360 vehicles. The RWS turrets are manufactured in Norway. The weapon in the turret is either 12,7 HMG 2005 or 40 AGL 2005. Remote controlled turrets are equipped with daylight and thermal imaging cameras, laser range finders and stabilisers. A computer calculates the parameters by distance and the only mission for the operator is to direct the crosshair to the target and fire the gun."

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Modify

Units 335,336,348: XA-361 AMOS

Availability start: 6/2013

http://www.patriahagglunds.fi/
"Patria Hägglunds has delivered the first AMOS FIN series mortar systems and the training systems to FDF. The Conscript training with the AMOS systems commences in Spring 2013. The remaining series will be delivered by the end of 2013."

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Finally, a small wish:

As troops in other OOBs have been combed thru and movement points checked, I believe Finnish Sissi (Reconnaissance & saboteur) troops should be changed as well. Wikipedia has actually a good article on Sissi troops http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_%...ht_infantry%29 and I believe these units should be reflected better in the game.

Quoting the article: "Sissi troops are un-motorized and are not equipped with heavy weapons or equipment, their uniforms and weaponry are almost identical with regular infantry issue. Distinctive personal equipment used by Sissi are Savotta "Para Jäger" backpacks used because of extended hikes,[5] camouflage paint and personal camouflage nets. Sissi units have fewer crew served weapons and more sniper rifles than regular infantry."

My main grudges are the movement points and AT weaponry. Sissi troops are lightly equipped (they don't even use a helmet) and try to be faster and harder to spot than their targets.
http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/ef...d6bbb81d585751

1. Movement points: bump up that one point from 6 to 7 just like Swedish reconnaissance patrol has.

2. Drop that Apilas. It's big, heavy and cumbersome, I doubt anyone is carrying that. I don't believe AAMG is either used in Sissi troops. Maybe replace it with 66 KES 88 (M72 LAW), 2 / squad.

3. Mines, satchel charges. Claymore mines, off-route mines.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...route_mine.jpg

There's a Finnish military newspaper "Ruotuväki" article, in Finnish: Ghosts in the forest

"Partioon kuuluu kaksi sissiä, alikersantti Simo Rautiainen ja lääkintämies Joeli Pennanen. Aseistuksenaan heillä on rynnäkkökivääreiden lisäksi kevyt kylkimiina ja raskas viuhkapanos. Partio toimii osana ryhmää ja heidän tehtävänsä on tuhota tiellä liikkuvat ajoneuvot."

In this patrol there are two Sissis, corporal Simo Rautiainen and medic Joeli Pennanen. As their weaponry they have in addition to assault rifles an off-route mine and a heavy claymore mine. This patrol is part of the section and their mission is to destroy vehicles using the road nearby.

So pretty please, could you bump the movement to 7, drop that apilas and add mines and satchel charges instead?

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

I'll take a look at it

Don

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

Not sure if this is the right thread, but the 7.0 version seems to be missing the Pasi series APCs (e.g. XA-185). I have a feel that it's missing some other stuff too that used to be there, but is not on this version. Thanks for the great work anyway!

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

See units 48-52, and a few others (enter the search term "Pasi" in Mobhack's Unit page). Formations 115, 285, etc available 1984-2020, search for "MRV" or "RDF" in Mobhack on the formation page.

Andy

Re: Finnish OOB 6.0
 

They have been in every version of the OOB sice Windows Ver 1 and they are still there in this version so if you are missing them you might want to check you aren't using someone elses custom OOB's

The PaSi 203 with the 25mm AC was removed as it was shown to be not produced but the rest are there as well as the PaSi with the ATGM was added this last release

Searching for Units of class 217 MRV APC
048 - XA-180 PaSi - Available 08/084 to 12/085
049 - XA-180 PaSi - Available 01/085 to 12/100
050 - XA-185 PaSi - Available 01/094 to 12/120
051 - XA-203 PaSi - Available 01/102 to 12/120
052 - XA-203 PaSi AT - Available 01/102 to 12/120
054 - AMV Patria APC - Available 01/104 to 12/120
055 - AMV Patria APC - Available 01/104 to 12/120


6 formations found using UC 217
115 MRV APC Platoon - Available: 08/84-12/120
285 MRV Inf Company - Available: 08/84-12/120
286 MRV Inf Platoon - Available: 08/84-12/120
287 MRV Support Pl - Available: 08/84-12/120
295 RDF Jaeger Coy - Available: 01/103-12/120
296 RDF Jaeger Plt - Available: 01/103-12/120


Don