Change In Visibility
 

Save file attached.

Polish unit in hex 47,26 and German unit in hex 46,21 exchanged fire for 3 rounds. Suddenly in round 4 the units weren't visible to each other.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Haven't looked at the file but could be either of:

- smoke has built up in the impact hexes, or intervening ones enough to block LOS (not all smoke is visible as smoke puffs, only those hexes with a reasonable lot of it). Such very light smoke tends to disappear in the admin phase, and it is more of a blocker in lower visibility maps.

- Someone has had a "takes cover" result which can break LOS from his enemies, and so he has to be reacquired all over again. A "hits the dirt" reaction tio fire simply breaks the chain of fire, like a pull-back does.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Looked at the save game.

As with most end-user saves it is post-event, so it is rather useless for debugging. Debugging wants a save prior to the event and a precise method of obtaining the post event result. In other words - it has to be repeatable.

My prior comments stand, though looking at this map it is probably micro-smoke that has built up in an intervening hex.

And this is backed up by pressing the end turn button - when the unit came under mortar bombardment. Artillery fire is a very common way of providing micro smoke into an area!. The unit post that, could see even less along that sight-line.

Assuming that it had been shelled prior to the save - not mentioned in the original post - that is the probable cause.

Micro smoke is only noticeable by noting unit changed LOS (otherwise maps would be more choc a bloc with smoke puffs) and usually disappears in the next admin phase - enemy or friendly. It is a feature of the game since the original SP series that micro smoke is not reported in any special manner. It typically only affects "edge" hexes of a LOS fan - like your situation, looking down a stream line in woods. It's usually of more importance as map visibility reduces and so LOS penetration into cover is reduced.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Exchanging fire degrades visibility slightly. Normally this wouldn't be noticeable but if a unit was on the edge of visibility to start even a couple of turns of fire could cause this to happen and as Andy noted after the turn ends and the 7.5 arty lands you can see even less down that little stream valley even though smoke density has not built up to the point it shows a smoke graphic on screen.

Not a bug

Don

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Unless you could foretell when a problem will occur to get a before save, one would have to do a save prior to every action. I understand problem, I was in software development for a long time.

But thanks for the info about micro smoke. Was the micro smoke code added about v3.5? That's when I first started noticing the phenomenon.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

BTW - the save was immediately after I noticed the problem, before the End Turn.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Since you brought up "takes cover" and "hits the dirt" I've noticed some unusual behavior which hopefully you can explain.

On "hits the dirt" I notice sometimes the Hit Chance decreases and sometimes it doesn't. What causes the difference?

On "takes cover" sometimes the unit disappears from view and sometimes it doesn't. I've experienced it both in clear and covered terrain.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

The game auto saves to the first slot each turn unless you are playing PBEM in which case you probably have the previous turns saves.

On micro smoke its always been present try reading his answer it stated something along the lines of "been present since the first SP series"
Given the right conditions even small arms fire will adjust visibility due to it if you keep banging away.

On your question about taking cover quessing but seems pretty obvious.
Reasons the to hit chance doesnt change.
The unit failed to find cover or think of it as the firing unit was better than it & managed to maintain a lock on them. Finding cover normaly breaks the lock meaning the target has to be reaquired.

Try thinking of what the games trying to simulate & you will probably answer these questions yourself

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Alot times when a unit trys to take cover,,it fails which may mean too many other eyes on it besides the firing unit.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Here's another instance. In this case the save file is the auto-save (I can be trained).

The situation is this: unit in hex 50,26 fired at unit in hex 57,25, then it received fire from multiple units. At the start of round 2 hex 57,25 wasn't visible.

Also see post below, it may be related.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

See attached save file.

A Unit View for the unit in hex 49,24 shows an intermittent pattern of hexes (every third hex) to the SE. All visible hexes there are level 0, clear. The hexes around the visible hexes are also level 0, clear. So why aren't they visible as well? There was no action in that part of the map so there shouldn't be any micro-smoke affecting visibility.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

I downloaded the 2nd one first as I thought the answer to the first would be obvious, it received multiple fires & hence had dust created around it but here is what I see.

Case 1
Err okay the hex it was on & the hex it routed to are woods with high grass.
Guess what pretty hard to see through in real life I would say the slightest instance of dust would effect as in block any view through them. Though its hard to see what you are on about as in the save & replay I cant the unit supposedly fired at in hex 57,25.

Case 2
Wow your taking the piss right?
The trees in hexes 50,24 & 50, 25 allow sight through them.
Looking through both however blocks vision through them, lots of trees now.
So all the unit can see where you are talking about is whats visible through the 50, 25 hex.
Take a ruler or a piece of string stick it on your monitor running from the hex centre & viola you can see the hex centres shown.

Sure you said did programing & debugging so you have got to know there is nothing as annoying as getting bad reporting or the person having no idea about the mechanics of the program.
At the risk of getting banned stop wasting everybodys time, several hours so far & go learn how to play the game before trying to take it apart. I mean come on how basic was the LOS in the second example thats basic LOS mechanics. Made me think you either really havent grasped the basics of this game or you are just flaming.
So please learn the game & let the designers get on with just that they are good at it instead of wasting their time looking at stuff that works just fine.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

In this case if the trees in 50,25 were removed you would see a two to three hex wide swath of ground all the way to the road and if you added a different set of trees to that hex you wouldn't see anything beyond the trees in probably 99 cases in 100 but this set in that location on that map the game has allowed limited LOS and because the LOS isn't good enough to "light up" a solid line of hexes the game has given this because there is no way , from that angle, with the limitations of hexes, to "connect the dots". If the sighting unit was in hex 48,25 looking "east" a solid line of hexes would be visible as being in LOS but being in 49,24 looking at that angle that's all the game will give you BECAUSE the LOS though that set of trees is allowing a glimpse of terrain beyond them .

The bottom line is the hex grid is the limiting factor here. There is not enough LOS though the trees to justify anything but a single line of hexes visible from that position but there is no way to string together a single line of hexes with LOS from the viewing unit to the road without creating a crazy zig zag of hexes that go beyond the allowed LOS so it skips.


Don

Re: Change In Visibility
 

As DRG says.

The LOS code has not changed since the SSI original Steel Panthers game back in the 90s. Ditto for micro smoke. There has been no need to fiddle with such fundamental code whatsoever. It works for a hex-based universe.

So SP uses it, we use it and presumably WoW (which I believe you said you have played for years) also uses that basic unchanged piece of code.

So I am wondering how you have just managed to find out that there are "edge" conditions when a unit is fired on, is suppressed, especially around cover such as trees and buildings or down draws such as streams and roads through woods.

It is entirely possible for an enemy unit to have an LOS to you but for your unit not to be able to trace one back to him on the extreme edge of an LOS fan - he may be more experienced and less suppressed, or have moved less hexes etc. so he can see that little bit better that you. Or in MBT, he may have better night vision gear than your unit (less of a factor in WW2).

Any new smoke added to the map from bombardments or exchanges of direct fire or burning bits of foliage or wrecked vehicles will dynamically change the LOS while it lasts.

So absolutely nothing new here, its been that way since the 1990s in all games using the SP engine.

Andy

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Interesting. In WAW I never encountered the situation where a unit lost sighting of a target during a turn, that's why I thought there was a problem. I don't know if it's just luck or if they disabled the micro-smoke logic.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

I think you are trying to compare two totally different games to each other,yes they are simular but very different on many important points too many to decribe here.

Here's what you should do,,forget what you learned on WaW, and focus on learning the SPWW2 way,b/c otherwise you are just going to confuse yourself and make nonexistant problem reports.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

@warmonger

You seem to have so many petty issues with SPWW2.

I'd have too also agree with Imp, this is getting to borderline flaming,or peristant whining.

You can make your choice,like it or leave it:vroom:

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Hmmm. In my limited experience, there've been a number of times LOS/LOF didn't correspond to the terrain. The most egregious example occurred when a railway embankment at higher elevation intervened between units at lower elevation, yet they were still able to direct fire on each other. Funny thing was, when I moved my unit onto the embankment (getting a little closer to gain advantage from the enemy's suppression), the LOS no longer existed! This situation may have been fixed with the v5.0 patch; unfortunately, I can't remember the scenario to check it out.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

We can add another anomaly to the list. Blockhouses and pillboxes don't block LOS despite being substantial structures (at least according to the photos included in the game). Perhaps it's because they're considered to be units.

Re: Change In Visibility
 

A) they are units, not terrain

B) some are big and stand out, others are sunk into the landscape (photos are simply for illustration). Size is important - but vehicles are not big enough to block LOS and forts are simply a species of immobile vehicle.

C) None of them are 50 metres by 50 metres, remember that a hex is half a football pitch.

If a scenario designer wants a super-large "fortress" of the Krak des Chevaliers type, then he can raise the terrain height or use other scenario map editing tricks.

Andy

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Just had a close call. I was gonna bother you about how come a couple of my Polish tankettes wouldn't fire at German groundpounders. Like, come on, there's a line of sight and there's ammo, but they won't fire! It turned out the two tanky-wanks in question had run out of HE, so no wonder :doh:...

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Normal houses aren't anywhere 50 X 50 metres either but they block LOS in the game. Looks like you're stuck with an original SP programming decision as to how to handle fortifications. Since it's pretty basic I don't expect anything can be done about it.

I just wonder why they didn't treat fortifications as buildings. When a unit is positioned in a building it provides them with protection. Was it that they needed to treat the walls as armor with differential protection from different directions?

Re: Change In Visibility
 

Do buildings have weapons slots ? Do buildings allow armour to be added ?

When you answer those questions you'll know why they didn't treat fortifications as buildings

As for......

"Looks like you're stuck with an original SP programming decision as to how to handle fortifications. Since it's pretty basic I don't expect anything can be done about it."

....... we don't see this as a "problem" that needs to be resolved.



Don

Re: Change In Visibility
 

It's very unfortunate to say that Don and Andy are stuck with SP programming decision regarding this so-called LOS. No they are not.
You just need to have a certain level of philosophical thinking to understand the nuts and bolts of this game.
A single hex of an urban terrain, that is, what you perceive as a hex of a house, can not be perceived as a mere single house. No. It is an urban hex, and as such, it may mean a cluster of houses, or a 50 meter house, or whatever. It's an urban hex. Simple as that. :)