Question about bicycle troops
 

Playing around with the Finnish Oob I found the Jaeger bicycle troops. I am abit confused about these. How are they supposed to be simulated in game terms?

In reality the bicycles were used for road marches and dumped imediately if enemy was detected. The troops would then fight it out on foot. Perhaps there should just be a bicycle transport unit that can load infantry squads?

I guess it is a similar thing as with cavalry in most cases. I think only troops that still attacked mounted in WW2 were some Polish cavalry. Others just used the horses for transport and dismounted to do battle as regular infantry.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

The short answer is there may be a better way to do bicycle troops similar to the way some MC troops are handled and some cavalry but because they are very much a niche item there has been little reason to change from what we have used since day 1 because it's not been an issue for players so in cases like that we tend to think.........."it ain't broke, leave it alone".

I changed some MC units as an experiment and that seems to be working so *perhaps* bicycle troops could be re-worked somewhat but it would require code and OOB changes. That's not to say this is an impediment, just that it would require more than a "simple" change


Don

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

I just made a little test comparing the movement of bicycle troops to basic infantry on different types of terrain. Appears the bicycle troops are faster on all types of terrain, at least on the following types I tested: clear, dirt road, forest, tall grass, rough and tilled field. In my opinion they should only be faster on road, clear and perhaps tall grass. Their speed should definitely be decreased to basic infantry speed on forest and rough terrain, perhaps also on tilled field.

I'm not requesting code change, but I'd welcome it. Before that I simply won't be using them. I would also reduce their size to 1, but that's something I can easily do myself with the OOB editor.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

A man riding a bike is no taller than a man standing, maybe make the bicycle units size 1?

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

@Don

I`m just curious. What kind of experiment with the MC?

Cheers

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Since they had not modern MTBs, I'd expect them to be even slower in rough terrain, for they'd probably have to push a bicycle ;) On the other hand, the Vietnamese reportedly used bicycles as a kind of pushed cargo cart.

BTW: as for mounted attacks, there were few cases of such attacks of Polish cavalry, but I'd bet, that the Soviet one also was used this way, maybe even more frequently.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Can you not see that 12 men on bikes would be a bigger target than 12 on foot ??

On top of that they were made larger so people wouldn't by all bike troops for their extra speed

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

In the German and Russian OOB's there are the traditional SSI all in one MC units AND ones that the passengers can dismount from..

ALSO in the Slovak OOB ( apparently nobody plays as the Slovaks........) the Bicycle Platoon has the bikes set up in the scout vehicle UC so troops can use them as transport then dismount like some cav units...the bikes need a " crew ' but that's the game

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Could do it much like cav @ motorcycle units if really wanted.
Dismount would use same weapons speed 6 & have squad size reduced.
Bicycle unit would consist of men removed from squad to stay with bicycles & would be armed with a rifle/carbine (same first slot weapon) as above plus a pistol or grenade.
Firepower is therefore now far worse when on the bicycles.
Cant get round the fact leaving a few men to stay with horses/motorbikes they could conceivably move them. Bicycles probably not which could be why its not being done.
They should definitely be size 2 larger & can predict path well its not a person dashing from cover to cover.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Yes I see they are a bigger target. Cavalry is also size 2, I thought the bicycles are closer in size to infantry than cavalry. Size two takes more casualties than size 1. Ok for horses but a bike is smaller and doest amount to much as a target for vision or bullets, it is only a frame. I thought it might be easier to make them size 1 than create dismountable. If people want too many maybe make them more expensive? I have been reading the old posts this is a really great community.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

A bunch of cyclists cannot sneak about like infantry do, when mounted. They take casualties worse than infantry do as well, hence size 2. The same applies to some conscript riflemen who can be size 2 due to being inept (USSR factory militia for Stalingrad IIRC is one).

The original SSI game only had the mounted icon for cyclists, cavalry and motorcyclists. We added formations with dismounting crews to some OOBs a decade (?) or so back. So if you want dismounting size 1 passengers, take one of those formations if your OOB has them. The original types really only remain since some scenarios used them, or or those who want "charging" cavalry (lancers do more melee damage on infantry and mounted, if they survive to do so. I rather like Polish lancers for cutting down fleeing riflemen, myself!)

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

The Japanese made extensive use of bicycle troops in Malaya early in the war in the far east. On occasion, when ambushed and caught mounted, they got badly shot up, because the one thing you cannot do on a bicycle is use a weapon...

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

PS
Mounted cavalry did actually see a fair bit of action in WWII (not just Poland and the largely mythical lancer attacks on German Panzers) but especially on the Eastern Front where Germany, Italy and Russia all used cavalry (some of it armed with swords as well as rifles) and also in the Sino-Japanese war.

I also know of at least one cavalry charge by British led local mounted forces in Burma against the Japanese.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Some countries fielded folding bicycles that could be backpacked across difficult terrain. Some mainly used them for scouting or communication duty while some had a bicycle unit attached to Light Infantry formations to move ahead and seize a position and wait for the other companies to arrive. Once in a defense they could be pulled back as a mobile reserve.
In an attack situation, Belgian and Italian doctrine roughly had one man per 9-10 bicycles stay with the cycles so it was about a 90% effective attack force when dismounted.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

WWII British Paras were issued some folding bicyles and, from early 1944(?) folding motorcycles. Not that I think they are worth putting in the game.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Hmmm, never noticed that oddity before Don.
Upon examination it seems to be the only Slovak unit in uc 32, therefore for the next update I would think it should more correctly be in UC 172 - Bicycle Section.
This automatically moves the Bicycle Plt to uc 172 also.

Although, further to your note re: 12 men = size 2 (Agreed), but, a carrier unit with just 2 men should correctly be Size 1.
It is Only 12 men when loaded with a 10 man Infantry section, as it does have ability to carry 10 additional men.

Thoughts?
Or does this prevent loading troops, u are the expert on uc abilities.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

But bicycles need to be size 2 as with cavalry as they are taller and so easy targets and also easily spotted. Making a carrier (2 man) element size 1 wont work for when the section is mounted with 12 guys pedalling. That the nominal men left with a pile of dismounted bikes might be smaller is irrelevant. The mounted case wins out since size is fixed.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Ok, valid point on size Andy.
But what about correcting the unit class for future patch?

Regards,
Mark

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Its a very minor point regarding a few units that dont follow the guidelines. If there is time to look into it while doing next years patch work then we may. But its low priority.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Before you make suggestions like this trying your ideas in MOBHack and then the game first BEFORE posting here is always good practice

What do you see when the Slovak Bicycles are UC 32 ?? You see an Icon with two bicycles because UC 32 is a vehicle class and can carry " passengers " and allow me to select the Icon I want

Now go to any other nation with bicycles ...try Japan, unit 104.....those are the UC you are saying I need to " correct" this to......see anything significant ?? UC 172 is an INFANTRY UC and therefore produces INFANTRY graphics NOT vehicles and that is PRECISELY why " scout vehicle" was used in the Slovak OOB as an experiment in handling bicycle units and PRECISELY why using UC 172 was not used in this case

Don

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

Thanks Don,

The explanation explains the odd class usage precisely.
Makes sense now.
I think it was a fair query.
But I will try to remember to check out the workability in-game for future also.

Thats precisely why I had stated the above when originally questioning the unit class.

Regards,

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

**I** pointed it out.....it's been like that since **I** set it up that way about 4 years ago. It was an experimental formation in a minor OOB and nobody commented on it in all that time.Once in a blue moon bicycle troops suddenly become the issue du jour and I personally don't like the way they have been handled as infantry but for years at a stretch there is no mention of them then suddenly they are an issue and this experiment was a test to see who might notice and if they did what the reaction would be

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

I would like to point out that cyclists are not necessarily higher than walking infantry as they are sitting and there legs are bent to the pedal. There might be 4 inches in it whereas for cavalry the difference is 4 foot. I think because of this it would be possible to make the bicycle carrying class size 1. After all at size 1 they are already more visible than size 1 infantry as moving further/faster automatically makes them more visible, same as making them size 2.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

A man + bike is much longer than a man on foot, and cannot use terrain to sneak behind as does a man on foot. Bicyclists are far more noticeable than walkers.

Re: Question about bicycle troops
 

.....and that has been, is and will continue to be our opinion on the matter and why this thread is now closed.

But the IMPORTANT thing to remember and that seems to be forgotten is that sizes in SP are 0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 etc etc

NOT 1.2 or 1.5

2 is a bigger target than 1 and 3 is bigger than 2 and men on bicycles were set to 2 because they ARE easier targets than men on foot and in giving them a speed of 9 it was decided a LONG time ago.......that if we didn't give the size penalty players would abuse the use of bicycle troops so they move faster but are bigger targets. At some point I *MAY* change all bike troops to the way they are set up in the Slovak OOB but it's low priority but anyone who feels it IS a priority to them has MOBHack to make whatever change makes you happy