Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

I'm thinking of going with a Jade Emperor, it's thematic, will allow me to summon the nations spells, and will allow me to get two of the boosters I need early, Bag of Wind and both of the rings, but I have some questions and I'll like some feedback.

I'm starting with an Dormant Jade Emperor so that I have more design points to work with. One of the things I've noticed is that despite have a wide access to different paths (making remote search a breeze) I rarely have paths higher than 2 in anything, so I need to get boosters. Also, a minor bless is not unheard of since the national summons are all sacred.

I keep my paths simple
Wind 5, Water 4, Astral 6. I get some small crappy blesses out of it too.

Now, I'm having trouble with my scales.
Domain strength - 6
3 Order because Money is great, and the benefit to PD is minor, but it is great for blocking scouts it seems.
2 Production, the units are good but many require some decent resources, and with a dormant pretender, I should get them out quickly.
1 Magic, because who doesn't need help with research, and I'm probably going to need to go heavy on spell casting.
1 Growth is probably going to get me in trouble, but I find many of my spellcasters are old, and I don't need that. On top of that, I find that I have larger armies running around, so it is easier to feed. Finally, with PD and Growth, any territory I own is going to be epic in longer games.
Now, to balance it all, I need to 'create' 120 design points.
Do I go with 2 Misfortune (and hope my priests and spell casters block bad events and that my pd is good) and 1 cold (no fires in my labs) or 1 Misfortune and 2 cold?

The end result is 0 design points left over!!!! That's right, everything is used, it is efficient in that respect.

Okay, I'm ready to be told that my design is completely wrong now.

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

I think growth 1 is a bad idea. Because population growth is exponential, the best choices are either growth 0 or 3. G3 also enables overtaxing (which MA TC is good at), of which Im a huge fan. Production 0-1 is also probably sufficient for cranking out troops.

As for misfortune vs. cold, I'd take misfortune. Cold 2 is a 10% hit to income (for 3/4 of the year, anyway), and adds encumbrance is battle, which your mages dont need.

You might also be better off saving points on magic paths. You will reliably get water 2-3 from your mages, which is all you need, so no need to take it on your god. +2 defense on sacred summons is not as good as more money to buy forts and mages. Air 4 is sufficient if you just want the boosters- again, good scales will benefit you more than +10% air shield. Also, Im not sure how much you "need" the air boosters, unless you want to cast big air rituals, since you have access to communions for air battle magic. And even then, you probably dont need them early. Personally, I'd rather use the air gems to summon more celestial hounds/ soldiers. Even forging a staff of storms is probably more useful. For astral, though, you're fine- S5 is a must, and the magic resistance from S6 is a good deal.

Lastly, I personally would want to use my god for death access, though it's not essential. A weak death bless is also good for mages.

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

I will also add to the previous commentaries that MA Tien Chi is one of the few nations that do not need magic 1, as it already have very good researchers in the celestial masters - all these paths add to the research potential of the mages...

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

Umm, what? MA TC have the best researchers in the game. But its not the Celestial Masters. Its the Ministers of Magic. These are weak mages that get 5rp for 70gold and can be recruited without a lab. They synergize greatly with magic scales though. And any MA TC strategy that does not involve ministers is a strategy not worth pursuing!

As for the Jade Emperor, he is thematic, but I dont think he adds anything you really need. What you need is a pretender with Death Magic for diversity and also scales. Some fire, water and earth on him is also not bad as it opens up some good cross path summons like hidden in foo and allows you to create fire boosters.

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

Thanks Cor. I facepalmed when I saw Makinus's post. Paths don't matter. Research points do.

Esp RP/mage and RP/initial gold cost and RP/upkeep.

(Initial gold cost includes the fort+temple+lab costs of course) So a 120 gold mage with 7 rp that requires a temple to be build is worse than a 120 gold mage with 7 rp that doesn't require the temple.

*one minor point with recruit without a lab mages/researchers these do tend to take one additional turn to start up research. Does not mean much, but they are a little bit less good then they look on paper. (esp when they also have move 1, and might take 2 turns to start researching).

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

MA TC's research is very easy to abusively create. Just use minimal gold to expand the first few turns, and put up forts ASAP. Forget the expensive mages until you have at least two or three forts being build.

Then use the superior Eastern weaponry with mage supported armies (who get better while they fight, as the research dudes still research back home).

O3P3H0G3L0M3 imprisoned dom7 lord of plenty should work. Not much real end game game changers, but you want to be able to stop your enemies before they can reach the true endgame. (en then start to commune).

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

I tried Death and Nature in a game, it didn't not go great. As I recall, I ended up with a ton of Fire Gems and Air gems, that I could barely use. Also, getting the rings without empowerment is nearly impossible without strong astral on your pretender. I wasted a ton of gems empower an alchemist in fire, and a master in astral, just to get Zmeys and rings. With Asstral 4-5 I can start getting the rings earlier in the game.

Also, I tend to go heavy misfortune, so my preferred research is the Imperial Geomancer. Stops most bad events and I can put them all together for a reverse gift from heaven communion.

Minister of magic is fine for research is fine, but when I have a castle with out a lab, it builds a consort, those ladies are awesome. Besides, what is the point to a minister of Magic when you can't even do any research with him?

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

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Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

As in build him a place without a lab. Come on guys, connect the dots.

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

Er...but the ministers can still walk to a lab. Hence Soy's comment that "it might take 2 turns to start researching". There's a short-term loss of efficiency, but that's very different than "can't even do any research".

Also, some further explication scales- Although you have a great research in the minister of magic, you still want magic scales. Magic 1 gives them a +20% increase in research. Not as dramatic as the +33% increase for, say, mictlan priests or yogis, but still very worthwhile for 40 points.

That said, geomancers are very good, maybe my favorite cheap mages, and you'll definitely want to recruit a lot, but being able to build researchers without a lab is a huge deal early on. 2 less labs is an extra castle, with no drag on your research. And it's because you'll have extra castles that you dont need production (I usually take sloth 1).

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

One comment only:

Personally, the heat/cold scale you use should depend on the game.

I tend to go to extremes on heat in order to take less negatives on luck or growth.

But the choice of the heat scale should depend on your neighbors - or at least the game participants.

If you know that you will be fighting abysia and machaka, or lizards, or agartha choose cold scales.

If you know that there will be water nations or death nations - choose heat.

Finally consider if your opponents are more susceptible to exhaustion (fatigue) than you are. Fatigue can help you if so.

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

Yes, yes, that I realize. Temp Scales (when you don't benefit) depend on who you are fighting against. But that doesn't answer the question of asymmetry of choosing between temp scales or misfortune for the T'ien Ch'i. Misfortune can be handled by the high pd and Fortune Teller ability, but it can hurt gem income and the like. Also, it is the question of whether Growth Scales are worth if it comes to adding misfortune or temp scales.

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

Shrug.. better is subjective. I presume your strategic plan is to not rely on a bless.

Me: I'd probably look at A4 W3 S5 on the pretender.
This gives you air boosters, and Rings of wizardry fast.

Water is easily buffable.

I'd take the 4!8 + 3!8 +5!8 = 80+48+120 = 248 points if my math is right and do other things. I'd probably in prison the pretender for another 100 points.

Also, your eunuchs and city guard have patrol bonuses, so that one eunuch and 10 guards can easily maintain tax rates of 140 or so. The advice given in 2004 still stands - Tien chi can stand to be overtaxed. I'd take growth 3, for 80 of those 348 points.

Now the remaining question for Tien chi - is what is your late game plan. This is the *hardest* part for Tien chi.

With low level magic (1-2 all over) you will lack for strategic maneuverability, and you really good end game options like SC's and High end summons.

To me, this is what your pretender design has to accomplish.
There are a variety of possibilities.

Death for tarts.
Golemns (or similar).
Blood
The New CBM summons.

The old popular choices will be Death and/or nature on your pretender. This is the route I would probably still go.
Adding death 3 costs 108 pts, right? death 4 140 and death 5 180?
(I'm doing this from memory).

Find some combination of death and nature you are comfortable with.

Once thats done - lets consider your endgame again. In order to *have* and endgame you want to make sure you have the research and the gems to get the chalice.

Pretty tough goal - but if you're going to try it, M1 is minimum and M3 is probably required.

So, thats my thinking. Overtax at the start for a jack rabbit start. Be careful with the troop types you present to your opponents. Research to win - you won't win by a military solution.

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

Sorry for my mistake, i meant to point to the ministers and confused them with the Celestial Masters...

Re: Jade Emperor for T'ien ch'i MA?
 

Geomancers + Bad luck its what ive used. The falchion + Shield infantry plus a communion of geomancers is enough.
If you take good scales you can pull several of this attack groups.
That would cost you zero gems expense.