Intel useless?
 

Am i wrong in assuming intelligence is useless? Initialy it was very effective when nobody had counter intel. But ever since i got my intel up to about 10-15k production, and started doing counter intel 3 exclusively (no other intel), there hasn't been a single intel op that's been successful.

Furthermore now that everyone has that level of intel, it seems like intel orders always fail.

I'd be interested in hearing other's opinions or exprience regarding intel as i'm thinking of scaling back dramatically on intel and building something else. Is it as worthless as i think? Seems like once you got enuf to contribute a little to counter, nobody can hurt you with it anymore.

[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: gwichman ]</p>

Re: Intel useless?
 

If two guys are pushing against a wooden pallisade with equal strength, the pallisade will not budge.

However if you stop pushing it will fall on your head.

Re: Intel useless?
 

I've had the same experience late in games, but I have to admit it does make sense. Unless you have enough intelligence points to overwhelm your opponent's defenses, you're not going to succeed. And, of course, the same applies in reverse. You can neglect your own counter-intelligence in order to spare more points for offensive intelligence projects, but you risk being victimized by your enemies.

Eric

Re: Intel useless?
 

while i agree it "makes sense" to think of it working that way, in my experience it does not.

My current intel output is maybe 25k.. The guy attacking me constantly has 58k output according to the scores. I block him *every* time and have since about 10k. Sometimes i even have an offensive project going but it simply gets blocked.

I'm just looking for some real world practical experience. Does it ever work? AM i correct in assuming it's only neccessary to build intel up to about 15k and then stop?

Re: Intel useless?
 

You're basically correct, counterintel level 2 doubles the effectiveness of intel points assigned to it, and counterintel level 3 triples the point value assigned to it.

Re: Intel useless?
 

Then the question is this:

Intel must work in 1 of 2 ways:

1) The attacks must take more points than the counter being used.

IE: If I have 20,000 Intel points and I'm running Intel III, that's 60,000 defense points. Someone would have to do 60,001 point worth of an attack on me in one turn to get an attack through.

or

2) The attacker must have an Intelligence number higher than my Intelligence adjusted with defense.

IE: If I have 20,000 Intel points and I'm running INtel III, that's 60,000 defense points. If the person attacking me has 60,001 Intell points, his attack gets through.

Option 2 I question because it makes it so whoever has the most Intel can't be stopped ever. If have 60,000 defense points and can't expand my realm and my opponent can expand to 100,000 Intel points or something sick, I could never stop his intel attacks, which seems quite unfair.

Opinions?

- Takr

Re: Intel useless?
 

"The guy attacking me constantly has 58k output according to the scores. I block him *every* time and have since about 10k."

Well, he may not be using it all against *you*. A lot is probably going towards defense, maybe some towards other targets, etc.

Counter-Intelligence builds up I think- an almost-finshed CI project is more effective than a fresh one.

Phoenix-D

Re: Intel useless?
 

Also, if you get all your allies to attack a guy with intel does that work? Or are the attacks processed seperatly? If they are processed in order you get everyone to do intel attack on one guy, then you could get way over his head wiht projects and then just share the info or the benifits of wiping out his homeworld with PPP etc.

Re: Intel useless?
 

as far as i can tell it doesn't help. My allies and I had 6 crew inssurections total go off on the same turn against the guy with 58k intel output. He blocked them all..

After seeing that, i feel like cutting back my intel facilities as they dont seem that useful and going with mineral which are extrmeelly useful

Re: Intel useless?
 

How long had the guy been building up his defense projects?

58K takes 85 turns to fill up to the maximum counter intel storage of over 6 MILLION defense points (including the 20% bonus for defenders)

Spend 6.5 Million points in offensive projects (combined among all your allies) in the next year (10 turns) (add 1/2 million for each additional year it takes) and you will have depleted his defense storage.

At that point, he will only block the first 70K worth of projects (20% bonus to def) that hit each turn, and all subsequent projects will succeed.

PS:
If he has any partnership treaties, his actual intel available for defense will be higher than shown for his personal score.
Add 20% of any allies' intel production to his ouput, and multiply by 1.2 for the defender bonus.

[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

Re: Intel useless?
 

Are you suggesting that intel defence sollects over time. So i could be storing it up forever and it would take someone years and years of projects to remove it? Why 6 million. And also if you have say 3 Intel III level projects can do they do protection even if you dont' spend points on them, they are just almost complete. I don't really understand this whole intel defence deal.

Thanks

Re: Intel useless?
 

Given 12 projects of Counter Intel 3 (500,000 points), when they're filled up, that's 6 Mil points.

You don't have to be actively adding to a CI project, it just has to have points stored in it.
If a CI project is completed (overflowed), that is a bad thing, and you lose your stored points.
If you don't overflow the CI project, the points will remain in place until enemy ops hit.
Each blocked op uses up some of your storage, and when your defense is empty, the enemy's projects will start to succeed.
Enemy attacks cannot slip through the defense unless the defense supply is either; less that the offense cost, or maybe zero.

Re: Intel useless?
 

Does the 20% bonus get doubled and tripled for CI2 and CI3 projects? In other words, if you apply 100,000 points to CI3, does it defend as 320,000 or 360,000 points?

Re: Intel useless?
 

Wait wait wait: Counter Intelligence 2 and 3 increase the intel you can store and they boost your counter-intel strength? Isn't that a bit of over-kill?

Re: Intel useless?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer:
You're basically correct, counterintel level 2 doubles the effectiveness of intel points assigned to it, and counterintel level 3 triples the point value assigned to it.<hr></blockquote>This is the first time I've heard this. I don't believe that it is correct. I think that the higher levels of CI just increase the amount of points that can be stored per project.

Re: Intel useless?
 

Intel is a game of patience.

If your playing against the computer just 'null' it out and build all counter intel 3 and do not waste the time on it. ( say perhaps 5% of your facilities should be intel )

But if your playing in a PBW or the upcoming tcpip games against other players then you have to decide if you want to follow the 'null' or actively engage in the game of intel.

Intel greatest strenght is to use it against people who you are allied with, or to gang up on a mutual enemy and overwhelm their defences.

It does come down to number crunching in the end.

But perhaps some random events can be added to change the numbers game and add an element of chance into intel?

Re: Intel useless?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In other words, if you apply 100,000 points to CI3, does it defend as 320,000 or 360,000 points?<hr></blockquote>That would be majorly unbalancing.
The 20% bonus means that for every 100,000 points you put into a project, your enemies must use 120,000 points to defeat you.

AFAIK, the only advantage of CI 3's over CI 1's
are:
a) They store more points before overflowing
b) They might be required to protect against tech level 3 projects (but I'm not sure about this)

Re: Intel useless?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> AFAIK, the only advantage of CI 3's over CI 1's
are:
a) They store more points before overflowing
b) They might be required to protect against tech level 3 projects (but I'm not sure about this) <hr></blockquote>ISTR that there's at least one upper level intel project that costs more points than CI 1 can store.