|
Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
OK, there were some strange changes since 6.0 version of the game. I will point them out and give few suggestions:
POLAND: 1. What happened to PT-91 Twardy tank (formation eg. 71, Unit 21 and 711)? Its power was dramatically decreased. Can get the info where you found actual (current) armor data and - first of all - the efficiency of the main gun? My knowledge about SABOT ammunition is very low, but let me quote polish source: Quote:
Then, front and side armor is laminated, rest is standard composite one. Additional steel side screens can be attached. ERAWA ERA has ability to reflect radar scanning what makes that tank harder to be spotted. I cant say much for Drawa FCS, can do deeper research if you like! Idea: Units 21 and 711 should have both steel and anti-HEAT armor pretty much increased. Their gun (weapon 161) SABOT ammunition should be ore efficient. Should I do greater research and propose the numbers here? 2. I know that BWP-1 is the only IFV for tracked infantry, but any chance for bringing back test equipment, especially Puma variant? Could be added like for 2015+ only with low AI chance of buying it. Idea: Bring Unit 999 (BWP-1 Puma RCWS) of OOB 2 as available since 2015+ 3. According to my sources, at the moment Poland owns around 50 Carl Gustav launchers, while nearly all of them are for GROM service. I dont get it why every mechanized unit uses that weapon. We use RPG-7 all the time with our own warheads, Dezamet-invented. Suggestion: Mountain Infantry uses RPG-7MT and that weapon should be provided for great but great majority of the forces. Idea: OOB 2 units ALL CONTAINING "84mm C Gustaf" should be taken away Gustav (Weapon 214) and replaced by RPG-7MT (Weapon 152) IN EXCEPTION OF Unit 640, 641, 642, 643 4. Dezamet produces advanced warheads since early '80s. I dont understand why LWP lost PG-7VL (penetration of 50cm as far as I know remember) to favour of PG-7V warhead (33-35cm pen). This touched most of late cold war era units, no sense giving all possible IDs here. Idea: Suggested switching RPG-7 --> RPG-7V for OOB 2 Units: too much to list, would have to edit OOB on the run 5. LWP lost PKM and uses UKM-2000 for no reason in SOME of mechanized sections. Check this out, I guess its just a simple error. Idea: Units affected are Unit 330 and 331 (formations eg. 230, 231, 224 or 225). Switch UKM-2000 --> PKM (weapon 016 to weapon 013) 6. Currently due to lack of money upgrade of Mi-24 optics is halted. Still, it may start by an moment so I suggest adding also TI version of the Mi-24W, with lower chance of AI selecting that one. Idea: Unit 125 (Mi-24W) should receive its TI counterpart without editing the unit itself. BULGARIA (OOB 87): List is shorter here! 1. It is more than 20 years since fall of communism and Bulgaria still disposes the Experience and Morale 55/60. They participate in NATO missions, are fully professionalized now and trained by various nations including US. In my opinion at the beginning of XXI Century their skills should seemingly increase. Idea: I suggest 65 Experience and 65 Morale for Bulgaria since year 2001. 2. Bulgaria has pretty decent SF force (brigade sized). Would be nice to add these units to make the roster richer since next patch. Idea: Addition of SF Units as new units into ORBAT. 3. Bulgaria uses around 100-150 BMP-1s all the time. For unknown reason these were removed from the army in SPMBT around year 1990. Should be brought back and actually held even till 2020. I know nothing about plans of scrapping them. Idea: Unit 065 (BMP-1) should be activated (I cant see it in-game) and set till 2020. 4. They have plentiful of MTLBs for service as well. Mainly support role and storages, but these should also be added for mechanized infantry, together with BMP-1s. Idea: Copy the MTLB from different ORBAT and provide it to Bulgaria as new unit. Suggested years of availability: 1975-2020. 5. Bulgaria is in use of Cougar helicopter. Should be added. 6. According to Wikipedia and Wikipedia only, Akatsya systems were sold off or scrapped. Nothing happened to Gvozdika though. Idea: Unit 040 (Akatsya) should be retired by 2010. Unit 039 (Gvozdika) should be brought back till 2020 7. Bulgaria uses D-20 guns only a towed variant. Idea: Copy that weapon from different OOB and add for Bulgaria as new unit. OK, hope this is useful and developers will take this into consideration. Hope it will not be understood as whining or offending. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
You obviously did not read the sticky post on "Error Reporting Procedure" then?
especially this paragraph: Quote:
otherwise - replies to the original post will likely become a tangled mess of things relating to Poland all mangled up with things relating to Bulgarian OOB... Andy |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Must admin I indeed didn't check it at first, really sorry for that. Tomorrow I will rewrite this topic and provide info as required.
|
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
OK, please take a look now and tell me if such reporting way is OK for you. If not, I will fix it further to learn it once and for all as this is my favourite game and want to help up in its development :)
Provided OOB numbers, also numbers of units and weapons acquired via Mobhack program. Now, two things: Do you want me to move Bulgaria into different topic and leave this one's name for edition or let it stay and second thing: Quote:
Quote:
I could try to edit Polish OOB only and provide it to you. Just 1 new unit, besides weapon changes. As I scroll through Mobhack and have experience in game edition in general I believe I could quickly crack it and implement pretty much of stuff. Stuill, you say you rarely accept the OObs. Should or should I not try it? |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
NO I do NOT have time to comb through 200 pages of notes to find the reference to changes made to the Polish OOB but if you look back on this sub forum you won't have to go back far to find a multitude of posts about the Polish OOB and if you find something you disagree with PLEASE do contact the original poster.
Don |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
NO, don't bother, the LAST thing I need, want or will open is an OOB from someone with zero experience with OOB work. Go back and read Michal Derelas posts. Here's a quote about the PT-91 issue Quote:
Now, this next bit's important........ IF YOU DISAGREE FEEL FREE TO CONTACT HIM AND DISAGREE. You'll find all 103 of the posts under "Polish OOB 5.5" that may explain the "strange changes" you don't understand. About the only thing I can say I will look into is the Carl Gustav issue. There should have been an RPG avaiable and the Carl Gustav should have been made "rare" Don |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
Also - having found any main thread on your OOB of interest, and having read that thoroughly, the best place for any new posts about it is appended to that "main" thread. (The thread on the Polish OOB is quite recent, only fallen to page 2 of the forum for example, and is quite large). That may involve some "thread necromancy" when you resurrect a long dead thread, which is normally frowned on if it is simply a casual "me too!" type post, but if there is an existing "Bulgarian OOB" (say) thread of a decent length and you have something similar/related to append - then at least it keeps the queries collated. NB - The search function is available on the tool-bar situated at the top of the forum titled search. Andy |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Sas Troop,
In the "Search" use "TWARDY" it'll show the most search results at 14 dating back to 8/05. As to ERAWA it's not true ERA, but, more like a Ceramic Tile add on armor with characteristics similar to NERA (But not as good.). The key difference is in the spacing/gap of the tiles vs standard ERA which does provide some added protection especially against tandem rounds. Don had addressed the armor issue for the 5.5 release. The tank... http://www.army-technology.com/proje...ainbattletank/ http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...BT-Poland.html ERAWA... http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3862.html http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011ballistics/12108.pdf ERAWA-2... Was an improvement to ERAWA-1 as tested in ref. 2 above. It is a dual layer material, however, it is still susceptible to KE rounds, which Poland hopes to solve with ERAWA-3. Due to the time, I have no information concerning it's development or current status. The PT-91M was delivered with ERAWA-2 to Malaysia. Regards, Pat |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
So discussion about ERAWA itself could be closed. I am more concerned about ammo as I wrote about it in first post. Provided all the names and basic construction of some of the rounds: its up to you to analyze it and tell me how efficient theoretically should it be.
|
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Based on what was discussed months ago and ignoring any " What-if-in-war-Poland-bought-better-ammo" hypotheticals what's there now in the OOB's represents what is available in real life......
Quote:
Don |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
So its settled then. If you dispose good sources for that I have support leaving it like that. Still, points 4 and 5 are most important for me. Will see what happens in next version of the game.
|
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
I just wonder what part of the word no is it that some people do not understand.:confused: |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
Quote:
This would be a lot easier if you stopped guessing about things and read those 103 posts I told you to read The Poles "Lost" the "RPG-7V 93mm" ( weapon 19 ) with 50cm of penetation because......... Quote:
We N E V E R had the Poles with the "PG-7VL rounds " but we did have "RPG-7V 93mm" ( weapon 19 ) with 50cm pen ( which is what he is refering to ...) However you DO GET the RPG-7MT with 50 cm of multi-charge heat penetration starting 2007 for mainly para/SF units that you didn't have before ( the weapons was upgraded to MCH for ver6 ) Don |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
I don't know if this helps or not. The ZPS site is about useless as it doesn't provide any specs at all, except to show we make 120mm/125mm tank ammo and here are the types we make. What is clear is the 125mm round made from ~1991 to 2000 wasn't that great with a universally excepted penetration rate (On the net from all source types.) of 460mm @ 2km. In 2001 with changes made to both the penetrator and propellant casing the penetration rate was increased to 540mm @ 2km (Again from all source types.) though less than a handful indicated a range of penetration from 500mm to 560mm @ 2km. 540mm seems to be within the margin of error and preponderance of sites and pages gone through. There were "shadows" of information that improvements were ethier made (Within the last couple of years.) or are being made to improve the penetration of the 125mm rounds in the near future, "shadows" are just that and there is already way too much speculation going on around here already.
http://www.zps.com.pl/en/ammunition125mm.html http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...nd-Poland.html http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...on-Poland.html I don't know if the JANES site provides any further insight (Current from May 2012.) to the Polish 125mm ammo issue or not, but it does seem to raise further questions (Or not.) on how effective Russian 125mm ammo was during the 80's to early 90's. Regards, Pat |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
AFAIC,this whole deal is a moot point. This wonderful battle simulator is suited for anyone to customise their tastes to play against the computer. Heck,I even have my own personal OBAT to play against the A-I( only the U.S 012),though the difference versus the recent 6.0 Obat ugprade to that military force only differs to the tune of maybe 0.05% overall,just based on my experience in the U.S. Army. Don and Andy spent many days and nights over the years trying to get the whole 9 yards as correct as possible. IMO they have succeeded way beyond what I thought possible 10 years ago. Nobody is perfect but IMO they are closer to it any anyone else in the gaming genre and once again,I like this sim just how it's being presented in 6.0. If you are unhappy,play against the A-1 with your own Obat(fill in the blanks as to how it should be). I believe in letting Jesse rob the the train however he wants to. Other than my experiences as to observing with telescopes and my obligations as a moderator on a telescope forum,SPMBT has become a close 2nd as to gobbling up all of my spare time. This simulator is that important to me. Grand Prix Legends is a distant 3rd,and do I love that one as well. My 2 cents. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Hello
What do you think about add a COIN fighter to polish and Indian OOB TS-11 Iskra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_TS-11_Iskra Indian air force already retried this aircrafts in december 2004 but they are still used by Polish without prospect to fast replace by new trainers. In game are already icons in shp file {12131, -1}, //4531 TS-11 Iskra bis {12132, -1}, //4532 TS-11 Iskra bis (Poland) {12133, -1}, //4533 TS-11 Iskra bis (India) {12134, -1}, //4534 TS-11 Iskra bis B (Poland) {12135, -1}, //4535 TS-11 Iskra bis B (Poland) {12136, -1}, //4536 TS-11 Iskra bis D(Poland tan-brown-green-grey) {12137, -1}, //4537 TS-11 Iskra bis DF (Poland) There are even two photos pm29136.lbm and pm29137.lbm already in game |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
I'll put it on the list to investigate
Don |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Hello,
After a loong break... Quote:
Michal |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
I'm not going to return to Polish OOB this season, but only one thing:
851 Cougar HEV 4x4 - according to Raport 12/2008 magazine, it is in fact patrol variant for 5 soldiers and driver. Now it's used in formations #346, 347 without infantry, but maybe there should be Light Mech Infantry (5 soldiers) or scouts. First date is in fact 11/08, not 11/09 (same for formations). Maybe it should be reclassified to some lighter MRV class (initially there was heavy 6x6 variant in this slot). Armament should be #100 PKT AAMG (if we consider pintle-mounted infantry LMG as AAMG). By the way, its name should be PK - ordinary infantry variant. There could be also added M-ATV in the same class (#852 from US oob), from mid-2011, probably armed with PK as well. Then, Cougar formations could be renamed to some more generic MRAP name. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
PS - M-ATV should carry 5 soldiers, if Light Mech Infantry would be used (one of them could be vehicle's commander)
|
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
As for Bulgaria, I've just found an article, that they modified MiG-17F to carry 4x 250 kg bombs (twice as many as unit 390) and used them from 1970 until 1986. Regular unit 390 was used at least until 1969 then.
Alternatively, at least 2 UB-16-57 rocket pods could have been carried (2x16 rockets ie. 2x weapon 186 4x57 mm rockets x 4) 399, 400 MiG-23 - should be attack MiG-23B variant, used no earlier than mid-1976 (now 1973) |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
One more thing: it seems, that at least late MiG-17s used in attack regiments were camouflaged (photo in an article), so icon 2907 is the best.
(On the other hand: precise parachute bombs (which I guess is weapon PB-250 of unit 392 MiG-17PF and 404 Su-25) were rather very uncommon in Eastern Bloc...) |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
There are 2 MiG-17 icons in the files one is silver and the other desert camo---- 2907 isn't even close to being one of them as it is an IWT Klon so what icon did you actually mean ??
Maybe 2809? |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
2807 :doh:
That sand and green looks perfect. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Several notes (of little importance) as for Polish OOB, thanks to a new 2024 article on Polish armoured weapons from 1960s.
005 T-55A - used in a quantity from 1/69 (now 1/68) 714 T-55 - first series-built tanks commissioned in 1/65 (now 1/64) (only two T-55 were bought in 1/64 as licence patterns) 414 IS-2 - last units were disbanded in 1/64 (now 12/60), so a better ending date is 12/63. Formations 12, 13 should be modified accordingly. Used afterwards for training. 025 SU-100 705 SU-85 - both withdrawn in 1963, so used until 12/62 (now 12/59), like formation 014 (no formation change needed). 058 FUG D422 - could be used from 1/64 (now 1/65) - first two were bought in 1963, and 50 during 1964. It had no fixed weapons, but could be armed with some crew's LMG at least (eg. 010 7.62mm DPM LMG, if we accept infantry weapons in this role). Firing LMG from FUG through open top hatches was not different from BRDM-1 with a fixed MG anyway. 704 SU-76M - ending date 12/59 might be correct for the army... but it appears, that 127 of them were still used by Internal Security Corps (KBW) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Security_Corps ), and in 1966 the army took them. There could be the second entry, say class 127 Gun APC (Tracked), wihdrawn by (probably) 1972, with 3-vehicle platoon eg. "Security SPG plt" (or KBW SPG up to 1965 and WOW SPG from 1966). Speaking of KBW, 550 SU-57 were used after 1945 only by KBW, so they could be the same class. I was surprised to learn that there was an APC variant of SU-76M: TOSU-76, with a dismounted gun, used by the same formation, until 1972. It could be added, even with the same icon. There is no mention about the armament, but 242 7.62mm DT AAMG was plausible. I suppose it carried 4-5 men. I'd make it class 24 APC (halftrack) - they were used by the same KBW forces as existing 724 Halftrack. There is already a formation 11 Security HTs, which should be extended then (maybe renamed to Security APC). Edit: One more significant thing, from other article: 131 MiG-15 - now used from 1/50, but first 5 were delivered in 7/51, and a big batch in 10/51. I don't known when they were ready (no later than 1/52 anyway). 687 Lim-2 - now used until 12/74, but in 1968 there were only 13 left in attack units, so I guess they could go before 12/69 (we have newer Lim-6bis attack planes by that date) 130 Yak-23 - Polish name is Jak-23. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
OK..... does that mean that the other three "Yak"s in the OOB should be "Jak" ? |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
One more thing. Digging deeper into 2024 article on MiG-15 in Polish aviation I've just found, that only from 1956 oldest MiG-15s were assigned to attack regiments, replacing Il-10s, and followed by Lim-2 - and only from that moment they were modified to drop bombs... :re: So, I suggest to keep 131 MiG-15 and 685 Lim-1 as strafers only (the difference is only in name, Lim-1 was Polish-built MiG-15, and Lim-2 - MiG-15bis). Then, we could add MiG-15 with bombs from mid-56 until around 12/68, and make 687 Lim-2 with bombs available from 1/58 until 12/69 or 12/70. Or, if you don't want to add new unit and multiply useless strafers, we could keep unit 131 as a bomber MiG-15 from mid/56 until 12/68 (Lim-1 would fit a strafer role a year later - or it could become available from 1/52 and pretend to be a MiG - which it technically was). Sorry for a mess. One more thing: 130 Yak-23 - withdrawn from combat units in 8/54 (now 12/56). |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Speaking of Il-10, there are Russian monograph books from Aviakollektsya 2004 and 2005.
Poland 136 Il-10 - they were gone by 12/59 (now 12/68!) (confirmed also by Polish sources). It's a detail, but first were delivered in 2/49 (now 1/49). They were always plain green only (icon 3117 would be better, even with Czech(?) markings). The same for unit 952 Avia B-33. It's worth to add a variant of Il-10 with two 250 kg bombs, without rockets. There could be also a variant with 4x100 kg. Czechoslovak OOB: 158 Avia B-33 has Soviet icon, should be 3117. A detail, but according to the Russian book, their units were disbanded in 8/60 (now 12/60), the same for 136 Avia B-33. As for the latter one, to be precise, Czechoslovakia manufactured B-33 with 4 guns 23 mm from 12/51 only, so they could have appeared from 1/52 at the earliest (now 8/50). Before that Czechoslovakia used Soviet Il-10 with 2 guns 23 mm and 2 MGs, delivered from 8/50. Romanian OOB: 134 Il-10 Stormovik - Romanian Il-10s are also shown in books as plain green. According to the Russian book, delivered in 3/53 and withdrawn in 1960 (now 1/53 - 12/58) Hungarian OOB: 135, 136 Il-10 Ruszkov, 137 Avia B-33 - the same with colours, always shown as green (examples: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/eRwAA...ZP/s-l1600.jpg , https://www.aviationmegastore.com/im...c-176683_0.jpg - and here's a nice photo of Hungarian Il-10/B-33: https://live.warthunder.com/post/441873/en/ ). But Il-10s were Soviet, so they were armed with 2x23 mm and 2 MGs. Bulgarian OOB: 388 Avia B-33 - since they were Avias, the armament was 4x23 mm. I've found no color silhouettes (Bulgarian ones are quite obscure), though I assume, that Czechoslovakia delivered green ones. North Korea: 130 Il-10 - they should be armed with 2x23 mm and 2 MGs. Undoubtedly also bomber variants were used. China: 136 Il-10 - they should be armed with 2x23 mm (now 4). Again, always are shown in a plain green color. According to the book, delivered only from 1950 (now 1/46). Undoubtedly also bomber variants were used. That's all as for now (unless I find something interesting) |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
https://shipbucket.com/files/vehicle...0219224954.png And while you are at it define "green" for Polish aircraft for me exactly...RGB https://c8.alamy.com/comp/DYHPTM/ily...ast-DYHPTM.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/3333/3...7968930fca.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/1874/4...91b2cfc2_b.jpg https://polot.net/wp-content/uploads...-2048x1365.jpg https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1733313364 I would say "They were always plain green only" is incorrect and the only thing wrong with the Polish Icon now is that the grey should be ( perhaps......) a touch lighter and have a hint of blue and the pattern more transverse than longitudinal but that's a lot of tiresome nitpicking........isn't it? https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1733316020 |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Thanks for pointing it out to me.
I've found 2006 article (Polish "Lotnictwo z szachownicą" no. 20), which says, that "In Polish literature about aircraft camouflage and markings, Il-10s were presented in a traditional way - top: green, bottom: light blue. This is how our sturmoviks were painted in the majority indeed. But there were found in Poland also aircraft painted in a different way - in a multi color camouflage". It says next, that part of first series Il-10s had a camouflage typical for Soviet wartime production machines. As for green shade, there is no closer information, but it was rather darker one on drawings. Museal aircraft obviously are rather faded (apparently unlike Romanian one https://x.com/misutanasa/status/1097755644357210115 ;) ). However, the Czech icon is pretty good. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
1 Attachment(s)
My own interpretaion of MiG-15/17 in various Eastern block states
Also with using license variants PZL Lim and Czechoslovak Aero. Of course Pibwl data are propably more accurate. But Polish Lim were used in Bulgaria ,DDR and Indonesia. Czechoslovak Aero in Czechoslovakia were produced also locally. They were license but with small differences in guns for example Lim's 1 and 2 used NS-23mm instead of typical NR-23mm then in LIM-5 back NR-23mm were used. Also Lim-5P which were aircrafts with onboard radar! in front nose visible on photos. They have only 23mm gun. I also add to OOB Czechoslovak Aero Aero S-104 is variant with radar. Also DDR used Polish build lim's in variants Lim-5 & Lim-6. I used here avaiable icons and photos. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
1 Attachment(s)
In case of infamous Internal Security Corps (KBW) polish variant of soviets internal troops. Here are photos of TOSU-76 APC and also their Su-76 and Su-57
|
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
968 FA-50 - AP cluster bombs (Korean CBU-103) were not bought by Poland, so it should have 4 Mavericks only. It seems, that alternatively 6 x 226 kg Mk 82 bombs can be carried (including GBU-38 JDAM), or even 8 in max variant, not counting central pod reserved for a fuel tank usually (https://fa-50.pl/charakterystyka-uzb...amolotu-fa-50/). There might be the second entry with bombs.
It could also be a fighter-bomber. (to be precise, first two were shown on a parade in 8/23, right after a delivery, but they were commissioned only in 9/23, and I don't know when the crews, which started training afterwards, are combat ready...) All Su-22M4 - only from late 2015 (say 1/16) Polish Su-22 started to be repainted in a grey camouflage during maintenance. Earlier they were in multi-shade brown and green camo - icons 8492 and 1993 with spread wings look very good. If we won't double all 10 units, they should be in an older camo IMO, because it was their most active and longer period, and I assume, that many remained after 2016 in the old camo for some time. (Just in case you'd want to double all units - which I don't propose, older ones should get lbms: 4742, 4743, 29237, 29473 lbms, while newer ones: 4744, 4745) Rocket artillery: 974 WR-40 Pl - better name is Langusta Pl 975 Homar Section - HIMARS is actually named Homar-A (American). 976 K239 Chunmoo PL - Chunmoo is named Homar-K (obviously, Korean). However, Poland didn't buy weak 131 mm rockets, but 239 mm CGR-080 export rockets (range 80 km, around 90 kg warhead, apparently HE) (12 on a launcher, so 3x24 seems correct, like US M270). Precise specifications are not known, but it is marketed as roughly the same as US 227 mm M30 GMLRS. The same rocket might be added also to Korean variant (reportedly with a cluster munnition). First one given to the unit in late 11/23 (now 8/23, when the first completed launchers were tested in Poland) - 1/24 is more realistic date of readiness. BTW: in Romanian OOB, 171 HIMARS Section - ordered in 2018, but the first delivered and commissioned by 3/21 only (now 1/18). It is truck mounted (lbm 9037). |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Minor SAM tweaks:
048 S-125 Newa - from a new detailed article in Polish nTW 10/2022, withdrawn by 1997 (now 104). 564 S-125 Newa-S - SP variant Newa-S was developed and shown only in 6/93 (now 1/92) 561, 569 S-125 Newa-SC (Area/SP-SAM) - digital modernized SP variant Newa-SC was completed from 1998 (now 1/95). 561 area SAM should be used until 2025 as well. (in fact both Newa-S and SC are not SP-SAM, but a mobile area SAM system on SP chassis, which takes 15 minutes to get ready from a transport mode (comparing to hours in case of ordinary SA-3 Neva) and needs a separate command/control vehicle and missile transporters - but the icon is quite cool, and a speed is appropriately low) 076 S-200 Vega - should have radio code 3, just like unit 074 S-200 Vega (only two stationery platoons on a seaside) --- Forgive so many remarks, of medium importance, and for the last moment, but only recently I got into browsing military press from the last period, for SPMBT purpose. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Polish OOB:
037 K9PL Krab - the name is very wrong. It is just Krab (some call it AHS Krab, but it's unnecessary, AHS = SP gun-howitzer). K9 is a different Korean vehicle. Starting date might be actually 12/12 (now 1/16), when the first 8 guns were given to military trials in an unit (on old chassis still). However, before 8/17, when the first battalion was given to the combat unit, it should have radio code 3. Poland bought also original K9A1, delivered to combat units from 12/22, operational (after first fire trials) from 3/23. It should be copied from Korean OOB 045 unit, gun should be the same 155/52 as Krab, AAMG presumably #176 50cal M2 AAMG. Name K9PL was reserved for a future version produced partially in Poland. Polish Piorun SAM (unit 212) were sold to Norway and delivered in 12/23, so I suppose they could use them at once since 1/24 (according to Polish nTW 1/2024 article). BTW: according to the article and Norwegian Wikipedia https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_70 and articles quoted there, RBS-70 were used by Norway only until 2004 (then sold to Lithuania), while Mistrals were used on ships only. After 2004 Norway had no infantry SAMs. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Quote:
|
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
There is a new detailed article from 2021 on Polish ATGMs- earlier I had more general info.
030 BRDM Trzmiel - deliveries starting from 1963, used in units from 1964 only (or late 63, but there is no precise info) (now 1/62). Effectively withdrawn in 1978 (although stored until 1985). Needs change of a starting date in 082 SP-ATGM Platoon To be precise, initially until 1963 they were used in four-vehicle batteries (I guess, two-vehicle platoons), later in three-vehicle platoons (and six-vehicle batteries). 433 GAZ-69 Trzmiel - two launchers delivered in 1964, but only in 1965 a battery was formed in an airborne division (now 1/62). Should have radio x3 - only 8 vehicles. 033 BRDM Malutka - should have radio x3 - actually a couple of vehicles only (2 or 12). Named BRDM-M (proposed: BRDM-M Malutka). Should vanish with an advent of BRDM-2 Malutka2 024 BRDM-2 Malutka2 - delivered only in 1974 (now 1/73). I suggest name BRDM2 Malutka-P (it wasn't Malutka 2, which was later Soviet modification with a precursor, but Malutka-P with semi-automatic guidance on 9P133 SP launcher) 034 BRDM-2 Konkurs - used from 1985 only (now 1/84). 077 HMMWV Trynka AT - not existing (Trynka was MG-armed prototype), but additonally redundant because of 861 HMMWV Tumak-5 A review of Polish Hmvees https://modelwork.pl/topic/11777-hmm...ojsku-polskim/ 73 Fagot ATGM - this time it was available earlier, in 1977 (now 1/79) 481 Para Fagot ATGM - actually, paratroops didn't get Fagots initially (maybe only from around 1990 - unit 490), so this is redundant. |
Re: Polish and Bulgarian OOBs
Helicopters
I've found a detailed article from 2021 on Polish helicopters. 424 SM-1 - started to appear in army units from 2/57 only (now 1/56) (needs change in #95 Lt Helicopter formation) 115 Mi-2URN - better icon is camouflaged 931 (uniform green color is used mostly in last years). 117 Mi-2URP - the same icon as above. It should have crew=2 (missile operator) and carry=4. Ending date should be 4/90 (now 12/91) - all were disarmed due to CFE treaty and armed again in 1993, but the unit 740 (below) is enough to cover later period I think. 740 Mi-2URPG - tested in 1987, but appeared only in 1988. The name was usually written as Mi-2URP-G, sometimes also with a name: Gad. I have a problem with ending date (now 12/91). In fact, they were used until 2020 at least, although I think, for combat training rather (after 2012 they remained Polish only helicopters with ATGM, despite obsolete ones). I personally made a photo in 2009 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mi-2URP-G_1.jpg Funny feature was, that apart from 4 Malutka missiles, they had 4 more inside, and could land for a while to reload (the same for 117 Mi-2URP without Strela missiles). It should have crew=2 and carry=4 741 Mi-2URNG - it appeared, that there didn't exist such variant with rockets (RN) and Strela missiles (G) 742 Mi-2US - actually appeared sooner, 1/72 at the latest (now 1/73) (needs change in #45 Gunship Section). Used only until late 70s (say 1978), then converted to URN/URP. 963,964 SW-3W Huzar - SW-3 helicopters with Spike remained a proposal only. No Spikes are used on Polish helicopters. 965 AH-64E Apache - not before 12/25 - Poland ordered the biggest fleet of Apaches after the USA (are we that rich?), but they are not expected before 2026 (not mentioning training) 966 SW-4 - much better icon is 2345 (of Fennec) instead of a bulbous 753 (of Bo-105?) (bottom view: https://www.mojehobby.pl/zdjecia/9/8...ARP90033_1.jpg ) 967 Mi-2 Kania (light helicopter) - in fact, Kania was a small series modernized variant not used by the army (only police and border guards) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_Kania Some had vision devices (which might justify TI 40), but personally I'd remove this non-army unit. It might be changed to ordinary Mi-2 with night goggles (only rename it as Mi-2 and correct carry to 108). BTW: regular 116 Mi-2 was also rather treated as a "light" helicopter in Poland (and all Eastern bloc), in spite of its 8-men capacity. It could be made a light helicopter, which would bridge a gap between #095 Lt Helicopter - Available: 01/56-06/83 and #096 Lt Helicopter - Available: 01/95-12/125 (with no night vision devices, it could then be available until unit 967 with night goggles) BTW2: maybe all Mi-2 should have carry capacity 8 instead of 108? With ordinary side doors it could only transport a HMG inside, maybe a light recoilles gun. In theory, 800 kg could be hanged externally. 428 W-3W Sokol - to be precise, should be available from 5/94, like the others (now 4/94) (first date of giving to units is 12 May 1994). 961 W-3W Sokol - date as above. It should have icon 3455 with side pods (like unit 123) In 1/86-8/90 also three heavy Mi-6A were used, unarmed (Soviet unit 351) (would need a formation for a heavy helicopter) |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:11 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.