.com.unity Forums

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)
-   Dominions 3: The Awakening (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=138)
-   -   Question: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3? (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49062)

Yskonyn August 17th, 2012 06:33 AM

Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Hi Guys,

I have been a citizen of this community for quite some time, played a few PBEM games of Dom 3, but I have to admit that -eventhough I see the potential fun- I just can't seem to get over the barrier and actually understand the game.

Part of this might be information overload. For example, reading most of the strategy guides posted here assume solid knowledge of the inner workings of the game. They often contain various concepts of play or acronyms/abbreviations that are daunting for a novice player to understand.

The other problem, I find, is the pacing and consequence of playing an MP game right away; if you make a mistake you often get punished in a big way because the other players will take advantage of that. Rightfully so, in a competative setting, of course, but it hampers training.
Additionally you only play 1 turn per game in 24 hours usually, increasing the interval as the game progresses.
This means the pacing is slow and deciding wether some plan you devised worked or not is often difficult or only revealed later on.

A lot of it comes down on information gathering too, I guess. The manual apparently isn't too useful as a reference to what does what even in vanilla, while CBM changes so much it easily overwhelms players like me.

I feel like I am stuck in the middle. There is this hugely appealing game, but how would I properly learn how to play it?

Thank you for your time!

Soyweiser August 17th, 2012 06:52 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Read the wiki, chat with people on irc ;).

Ask Calahan to write a guide on the basics. Read the book he then writes.

parone August 17th, 2012 06:55 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
one thing-don't worry about playing "right". i am an absolutely awful player. but i don't mind that. i play newb games(or did when i had the time), and if i am lucky enough to last to midgame, i get killed as i have no mid game plan.

i suggest you pick one nation, and learn their ins and outs in single player. mess around with them for a week. read a guide or two, and come up with a solid expansion strat with their troops. then look to join a newb game, with that expo strat in mind, and tailor it to your starting position. this way, you are learning to play one phase of one nation, you will have predetiermined research goals, and wont get overwhelmed by too many options.

i find the game is fun if i have a plan and am attempting to execute it. even if it is a lousy plan.

GFSnl August 17th, 2012 08:05 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Start with MA Caelum.

Recruit Mammoth for expansion.
Research evocation 4 and start casting 'Thunder strike' with you mages.
This is one of the easiest but relative powerful setups for competitive play.

SsSam August 17th, 2012 01:04 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
You won't win every game. But try and learn something every game.

I would suggest that a newcomer pick a nation and stick with it in single player mode for a bit. Read all the guides for that nation that you can find. Start several games with several different approaches to your pretender. You won't win all of these. When you DO get off to good starts (12+ provinces at the end of the first year and an idea of what you want to research up to year 3) get into a newbie game. When you die, pay attention to how you died. (Dang, real players play very differently than the computer player) learn from that.

Try another nation.

To me the joy of dominions is precisely trying different things. I have more fun in games that I lose than I do in games where I win. No pressure and I'm free to try things without playing "optimally."

Caelum above works great...http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...61&postcount=1 was my attempt to help others get over the hump.

Yskonyn August 17th, 2012 04:56 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Thank you all for the input so far.
Debate about going MP headfirst and skipping SP altogether have been numerous. I have never really played against the AI because most have advised against it, but after getting stomped early on in three PBEM games I am beginning to doubt this is the right approach.

What usually happened is that I am losing momentum. Losing focus. What is my plan? HOW do I execute it.
The HOW needs you to have a fairly good grasp of the game, which is hard to get diving into a PBEM game for the reasons I outlined in the OP (pacing being the most prevalent).

So I think its best to re-start in SP afterall now.
SsSam, thanks for the link to your rather extensive post. One question, though, was this written for vanilla or CBM?

Fantomen August 17th, 2012 05:58 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
SsSams post is a very nice paractice. It will work fine in CBM, all the ingredients are pretty much unchanged. I would try expanding with the normal troops though, not only hydras. Because that will give you better general practice of battle tactics. Pythiums regular troops are very very good, so that shouldn't be a problem really.

But what really changes strategically as you learn the game is that you gain the ability to envision each specific nations power curve from early to late game, and then make a plan on how to make that power curve as smooth and fast as possible. I understand you agony, because it takes quite a while to get there.

For example:

MA abysias power curve the way I typically envision is: Fire resistant infantry + AOE fire evocations carry the early game, then building critical mass of soul contracts to get devil raiding squads going, then combining that with vampire defence,zmeys and horrors, then use that vamp defence and raiding to shield a blood sac victory, and if that doesn't work to shield me while going for late game blood magic and high level astral spells. Paralel with all that I need to build up some diversity in magic access, but I can afford to neglect some diversity if it favors my overall plan.

That's a reasonably clear vision for a strategy, so what pretender design do I need to execute it? What are the tresholds in research? How many provs and forts do I need in year 1 to lay a base for it? How do I manage to get that number? And how do I manage it all under attack from other nations that won't take any consideration at all to my vision?

All that you need to manage to stand a chance in a game with good players. In a newbie game you can afford a suboptimal plan, but I do believe that a plan is needed. The guides are generally written to provide that kind of plan. As you say they assume basic understanding of the game, but that can only really be gained by playing long enough.

Playing against the AI is alright as basic practice, like expansion and battlefield placement of basic troops. But the problem is that so little of the big plan is needed to win. In the above Abysia example you can just go one or two steps to win against any AI. Since abysian infantry + fire evos combo will kill anything the AI can do you will never be forced to take the other steps, and translated into MP the other players will kill you because that combo is easy to counter for any human player after year 2 or so.

But on the other hand you can challenge yourself by executing the plan against the AI whether it's needed or not, and try to run through the power curve as fast as possible. At what turn can I get 20 provinces? At what turn can I have 25 soul contracts? and so on.

Yskonyn August 17th, 2012 06:49 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Fantomen, I understand what you're getting at. Thank you.
I also understand that a lot of the tactics you might devise -or actually need- are in no way representative of the things you will need to come up with, or taking into account when playing a MP game.
But the fact remains that I feel like standing in the twilight zone by just going for PBEM games alone.
You can only see what to alter, or what not to do if you have a basic foundation of what CAN be done in the first place.
So, playing against the AI might be a good place to begin laying that foundation afterall.

On a lighter note; at least the game still feels fresh after the years I've had it now. :D

I've been thinking about starting a Let's Play series where I get to learn the game. The community would be able to follow through and provide some advise.
That would become a very powerful tool to learn the game with I reckon.

Valerius August 17th, 2012 10:52 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yskonyn (Post 809785)
You can only see what to alter, or what not to do if you have a basic foundation of what CAN be done in the first place.

As far as this goes, I recommend setting up test games where you play two or more nations. Maybe there was a certain nation or unit you struggled against in MP or maybe you're not sure what certain spells do - test games can let you run through battles repeatedly, changing things each time around so you can see what works best in different situations.

Admittedly, running test games isn't necessarily the most exciting thing but it can be very useful.

Executor August 18th, 2012 06:24 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
While I agree SP doesn't give much in terms of improving your skills you should not avoid SP completely. SP can only help you so much but it can help, and it's better to learn basics in SP than MP.

Pick a nations that seems appealing to you and stick with it. Some of the more powerful nations like Sauromatia or Neif might be easier for beginners to play with.
Take a good close look at the nation and get familiar with it, what mages you have, troops, summon. What kind of spells you can cast, should you take a bless for your sacreds, etc. Read a guide or two to see the nations weaknesses and strengths, and possibly a pretender build.

Test your nation out in SP. Try a pretender build that just focuses on the early game first (first 30 or so turns).
There will be time enough to learn mid and late game strategies, and that can only be learned trough MP experience while being trashed, no guide or careful planning will help you there.

If you have a weak nation get a strong awake pretender to expand, etc. Your pretender build should be okay once you manage to get around 12-15 province by the end of year one. If you can't do that I suggest revising your pretender build. Since if you can't get that many when you're alone on a map you won't stand a chance in a MP game, probably even with other newbies.

Once you have your nation and a workable build try a SP game against the AI at impossible difficulty. Try a smaller map and don;t give yourself too much space, around 15 provinces per player. If you can win than you're probably ready to get into a newby MP game, if not, than keep practicing.

MP;
Focus on early game like I said, and try to take someone out, anyone. Fighting wars, any kind of wars is best training in MP, especially being on the offensive. If you think you can't take an enemy alone try to get someone to help you with a joint attack. Once you've survived early game try to improvise. You probably won't do very well with forsaking mid-late game strategies but at least you'll survive to mid game and you'll be able to observe how others perform. Try to mimic some tactics and learn a few tricks along the way. (how to place archer decoys, mage placements, raiding and thug tactics, communions,...)

If you're really having trouble with competitive MP games, than just ask for help or directions. I'm sure there's a lot of people who would be willing to take a look at your turn and give you some advice.

Some more advice from me for MP. Mages and spells are what the game is about. If you don't recruit a mage every turn and invest in research heavily you don't stand a chance. Site searching is very important. Site search as soon as you can everything you can. Recruit spies. For some reason newbs don't really like to make spies but trust me they are a very important part of the game. Build them in every indie province you find them in every turn. Troops and brute force is useful up until turn 30 at most, after than it's all about magic and gems. Get additional forts and start pumping out more mages as soon as you can. Don't spend money on troops when you don't need them, saving for mages and forts is better if you're not in war, and sometimes even than.
Diplomacy can be very helpful to new players. Try to get an ally or at least NAP with everyone except a player you plan to attack.

ghoul31 August 18th, 2012 06:53 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Just take a nation with really nice holy troops.

Then put a giant bless on them so you have super high attack and defense, and 0 fatigue..

You should be able to do very well in the early game doing that.

Admiral_Aorta August 18th, 2012 11:16 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
but don't get stuck into just doing that forever

Samhain August 19th, 2012 01:08 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
I agree with those who said to get the handle of SP before trying MP. Single player games will get you familiar with the elements of the game, though you may experience them differently in an MP game. For instance, as someone else said, MP really emphasizes magic. Researching and site searching are paramount.

Also, keep going back to SP if it can keep your interest. Even veteran players will test a new nation or strategy in SP before trying it in an MP game.

If you want faster feedback on how a strategy or nation will play in MP, you can also try blitz games such as those hosted on dom3minions: http://www.dom3minions.com/HostedGames.htm

In my own limited experience on that server, the game play is a bit different. There is a stronger emphasis on powerful bless strategies for instance. But, it is much more like PBEM MP than SP is.

shunwick August 19th, 2012 06:59 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Yskonyn,

I am in exactly the same position as you. Personally, I think the posts by Executor and Samhain have it right. I am playing in my 2nd MP game (my first was a disaster) and I feel lost (as in not really having any kind of grip on the game). SP seems the most reasonable way to learn the very basics of the game and I am not going to start another MP game before I get some kind of understanding of how the game works.

Best wishes,
Steve

Yskonyn August 19th, 2012 06:25 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Thank again for all the feedback, everyone!
I have decided to focus on Caelum, our winged friends, because a) I have tried playing them in 2 PBEM games and b) I am in the air myself most of the time as well. ;)

So first up is creating a pretender; One guide I read (but that was of the original Dominions IIRC) is that Blood magic provides an interesting complimentary twist to the faction.
Would you guys agree this is still the case in Dom 3?
As a general rule of thumb, are guides from Dom 1 and 2 still fairly valid for Dom 3's factions?

parone August 19th, 2012 07:02 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
ysko-

caelum is a bit tricky, i think, but if you figure out a good early game strat(keep those mammoths from routing!) you have a great midgame with all your lightning/shock evos.

which leads me to this point-i would eschew blood early on. keep it simple. have a good solid goal(ie crazy lightenting, with some back up strat in case that isn't working). but to try to throw in blood-a totally different research line, would be pretty complicated. blood is also micro heavy.

so i would say, if you want to go blood, go really blood. but if you want to go air, go air. but to do both would be a steep learning curve-and isn't that what you are trying to avoid?

anyway, im out of dom MP for the moment, as i am working about 90 hours a week. but if you do end up in a game in a few months, i'd be happy to join up with you.

remmember-originally, keep it as simple and goal oriented as you can.

Executor August 20th, 2012 03:30 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Caelum can be a bit hard to handle, esspecially in MA, but I think they're a good choice. At the very least you will have excellent mobility which is great for raiding.
As for blood magic, I'd advice against it. You'd sacrafice a lot to get a stable or any kind of blood economy going. Your pretender would be tied up from the start, and it would be a very slow and painfull start with no much to gain. You'd forsake design point, pretender hours which could be put to better use, research detour which I advise against with Caelum and you wouldn't have much to compensate for it all.

Yskonyn August 20th, 2012 06:41 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Again, solid info there, guys. Thank you so much.
You talk about focussing on Air magic. Would you forego all other paths just to be able to max out in Air? Or don't I understand your point(s)?

I was under the impression that it was good practise to get as many magic paths as possible?

Mammoths and wingless (with their high morale) are a good combo, I find.

Executor August 20th, 2012 08:52 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yskonyn (Post 809916)
I was under the impression that it was good practise to get as many magic paths as possible?

Yes, this is generally the case, but non blood nation don't normally try to get into blood, unless you find some indie mages but than that's just luck not careful planning.

To goal is to diversify as much as possible without losing or forsaking too much, which might get you killed. The general consensus for non blood nation is not to dabble in the blood arts unless there is a very good reason to. Like massive blood stone forging in vanilla with Agartha for example.
Non blood paths are easier to get going than blood, and rightly so. You don't need to invest mage time to collect gems like when you blood hunt. And the only one who can blood hunt (efficiently) with non blood nations is a pretender. Than you spend that little you hunted on more hunters and so on. So if you want a stable blood economy it's very hard to accomplish, but if you're aiming at a certain aspect, like massing just a single low cost item, than it's doable but it's still a gamble.
The cost in taking blood with a non blood nation far outweigh the gain.

As for Caelum magic, I will work under the assumption you're going EA, meaning you get A/S/W/E I think.
S1 mages can site search remotely, as can any of your A mages. Water is a little harder but once you get a few water bracelets from const 6 you can site search for W. For E you only need earth boots. That's W/S/A magic covered by national mages, E is covered with a E2 pretender so that leaves you with N/D/F to deal with.

Nature is usually one of the easiest paths to come by. Indie nature mages are everywhere. Site searching would be easy once you get a nature booster for those low level indies. You can take N2 on your pretender to forge boosters, trade one with a neighbor, rely on finding higher level N mages like enchantresses or just empower for 30 nature.

That leaves fire and death to go for the rest of gem types. You could get a higher level (3 or 4) pretender to manually site search or just leave it to in game chance. Not every type is a must.
A rainbow mage would work nice in this case. N2/F4/D3/E3 or something. You'd get a jump start on research and access to other gem types.

Yskonyn August 20th, 2012 09:45 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
For the sake of argument here's the link to the guide I found fascinating; Why Caelum should go for Blood magic

Another thing I notice, is that you are talking about 3 to 4 levels of each magic path.
Can levels be increased during gameplay? Because I always thought once you have a certain level chosen, you cannot increase it anymore and thus the maximum level spells are restricted to your initial build.
Am I mistaken?

August 20th, 2012 09:58 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Cheers Yskonyn,
If you found a Dom PPP guide for Caelum with blood, that was most likely from Jacques Vidal (aka Nagot Gick Fel in these forums), I had the pleasure of getting my arse handed to me by his Blood Caelum in one of my first dominions game.

He was a top player so it's an excellent guide, but part of it no longer applies to Dom 3:

1)-IIRC, back in Dom PPP Caelum got 2 unrestricted random picks in its High Seraphs, so you could roll 1B or even 2B mages in every fort for 180 gold. Once the Dominions series evolved, Illwinter concluded that such unrestricted magical diversity in national mages resulted in all the nations playing more or less the same way by the end game, so the nations are nowadays restricted to picking their randoms from 4 or so types of magic, instead of all 8.

Also, back then scouts could be equipped with dousing rods to blood hunt, and at Blood4 you could summon Ice Devils for 30 slaves, and Fathers Illearth at Blood5 for 50 slaves IIRC, so getting into blood with a Fountain of Blood pretender was much easier than it is in Dom3, and much much easier than in Dom3 CBM.

2)-Back in Dom PPP the lesser elemental summoning in Conj3 did not require gems, and elemental mages would literally spam the spell.

Apart form the above, the rest of the guide should mostly apply nowadays.

Look at the strenghts of your nation: long range raiders, efficient patrollers, lightning resistant troops that synergize well with lightning spells, and the same with cold resistant troops & cold spells. Many troops carry magic weapons!

Your fliers have troop density issues, but your temple guards do not:
Do not underestimate your temple guards when it comes to holding the line, their ice armour gets better in cold3 provinces (their stats get much higher that what you see in the recruitment sheet), so name your pretender Prima Donna the Ice Queen and spread the cold love with a high dominion and liberal use of Wolven winter. :D
Add some winter wolves or undead with cold auras (ghosts, wights...) to your front line for some extra punch.

edit: I type slowly and did not see your last message: it's not Jacques then, but the advice looks similar.

August 20th, 2012 10:20 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yskonyn (Post 809919)
Can levels be increased during gameplay? Because I always thought once you have a certain level chosen, you cannot increase it anymore and thus the maximum level spells are restricted to your initial build.
Am I mistaken?

Yes, you can empower spending gems. Getting from lv1 to lv2 costs 30 gems for example.

Or you can equip magic items that boost one or more particular paths. Take a look at Momfreek's excellent app for details, or check your manual.

Soyweiser August 20th, 2012 11:12 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Sector24 also wrote a path booster guide: http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/User:..._booster_guide

Executor August 20th, 2012 11:27 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yskonyn (Post 809919)
For the sake of argument here's the link to the guide I found fascinating; Why Caelum should go for Blood magic

Another thing I notice, is that you are talking about 3 to 4 levels of each magic path.
Can levels be increased during gameplay? Because I always thought once you have a certain level chosen, you cannot increase it anymore and thus the maximum level spells are restricted to your initial build.
Am I mistaken?


Another thing I notice, is that you are talking about 3 to 4 levels of each magic path.
Can levels be increased during gameplay? Because I always thought once you have a certain level chosen, you cannot increase it anymore and thus the maximum level spells are restricted to your initial build.
Am I mistaken?[/quote]

When picking a pretender for site searching people either take the minimum so they can forge boosters and remote site search with spells, like forging earth boots for Caelum for example. Or go as high as 3-4 levels for manual site searching and more powerful boosters and late game options.
I don't remember the exact numbers so I won't speculate but the odds to find a site manually increase with each level and a level 4 mage is guaranteed to find anything. It also helps that level 4 has boosters you couldn't get with lower levels with some paths, like the Winged Helmet for air, Flaming helmet for fire, etc.

Like Wendigo said you can empower to gain additional levels but the price increases drastically for each level. Initial empowerment is 50 into any magic path, including slaves, which is why blood empowerment is easiest and most common. Than it increases by 15 every additional level starting with level 2 which cost 30 I believe.

So starting a blood economy would require several hundreds slaves which isn't a lot for a non blood nation (nations like Mictlan or Lanka can easily pull in as much as 300 slaves per turn), but is very pricey when you're looking to get with a pretender.
Also, worth mentioning, any unit can blood hunt but there is only a 5% chance with non blood commanders to hunt successfully. So I guess you can always build 100 scouts and try to blood hunt. ;)

Now back to magic paths, one of the reason why diversity is very important is the more diverse a nation is the higher level magic it can get, and the higher level magic you can get the more powerful the monster are you can summon, not to mention battle magic.
For example having S4/B4/A4 insures you'll be able to forge Robe of the Magi, Ring of Wizardry and Ring of Sorcery, all of which can increase you base paths drastically. Those boosters can be used on other mages to get additional high level boosts, Sceptre of Dark Regency, the Forbidden Light and so on, which insures you can cast and forge pretty mcuh anything.

So there is a very important trade off when choosing a pretender. Do you want an awake super combating pretender to expand well and orient on early game, hoping to compensate your lack of magic or diversity by successful early wars and plunder you'd gain by it, or do you want to cover all paths and magic at the risk of being a target of one of those who is focusing on early expansion?

Of course there are cross between nations but every nations has to make a trade off somewhere, scales for a bless, awake SC pretender for scales and diversity, scales for diversity... etc.

Caelum like any nation has a choice there. The good thing with Caelum is that you can kick the crap out of any nation that can't deal with archers, like Mictlan, or anyone who can't counter air magic (lightning evocation). But those who can will probably kick the crap out of you. So you can chose a pretender to compensate for your weakness here. Take a Prince of Death or maybe a Vamp Queen if you want blood.

A word of adivce from me; Caleum troops are generally not good. Melee troops in any case, so don't rely they'll be able to deal with anything other than archers and your archers won't be able to deal with anything other than lightly armored troops. You have temple guards but they are painfully slow for Caelum and you have Mamoths who are easily counterable with almost any magic researched. Though temple guards and mammoths are good when combined since the temple guards with their high morale keep the mammoths from routing and killing your troops.

Stagger Lee August 20th, 2012 03:56 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Hi Yskonyn. You organized my first MP game a few years back, David and Goliath. I learned a few things in that game, but we got sidetracked by a couple of bad rollbacks and an odd combination of new and experienced players which led to a slightly unbalanced game. It was still fun, but I got the sense that you were focusing more on the admin part than on actual gameplay. A couple of games where you only think about your own nation and position might help you over the hump. Anyway, thanks again for that! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yskonyn (Post 809919)
For the sake of argument here's the link to the guide I found fascinating; Why Caelum should go for Blood magic

Another thing I notice, is that you are talking about 3 to 4 levels of each magic path.
Can levels be increased during gameplay? Because I always thought once you have a certain level chosen, you cannot increase it anymore and thus the maximum level spells are restricted to your initial build.
Am I mistaken?

First, I think playing Caelum (or any non blood nation) with a blood magic strategy is more of a vet (if it works),or total noob (when it doesn't) move. What people are telling you is to pick a nation which can focus on one type of magic, so that you can learn how to use that magic. Once you've learned the value of (in this case) air magic, those lessons will stick with you and help you whenever you play a nation with any level of air access.

Second, I get the feeling that you are mixing two concepts that are separate. When you build your pretender, the magic paths you put on him count toward your bless. If the pretender has E3, there is no earth bless, and empowering him or giving him earth boots won't change that. If he has E4, your sacreds will get some reinvig, and even if your pretender is killed and he drops to E3, the bless stays the same. For all other purposes, you can empower or add items to improve him, and magic research is never limited by level unless there is a specific mod in use. (I've seen games where magic was limited to level 6) The ability to research and cast spells is not a function of initial magic level on a pretender.

Oh, and remember - Executor's suggested build is for a good rainbow, not a bless chassis (in case you were wondering why E3/D3). His job will be to go out and find stuff that your national mages can't, forge stuff that your national mages can't, and cast rituals that your national mages can't. And research in his spare time.

Yskonyn August 21st, 2012 10:19 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
A lot to take in, but tremendously appreciated, gentlemen!
I need some time to take it all in and then I am sure more questions will arise. Please keep an eye open. ;)

John_Madlock August 21st, 2012 10:55 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Is MA Marignon easy faction to play? They have very limited mages (fire and some astral) and very ordinary units. Only "difficult" thing may be understanding and management of communions.

Fantomen August 21st, 2012 04:01 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
I think a nation with limited magic is typically harder to play successfully in multiplayer, not easier.

Admiral_Aorta August 22nd, 2012 02:19 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Marignon's "very ordinary" units are also quite bad, so no they aren't really a good beginners choice. If you want to go with mostly fire magic and spam evocations then Abysia(any age really) is a far better choice since they actually have decent troops.

John_Madlock August 22nd, 2012 05:35 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Geez, is it true even with CBM? You sound like MA Marignon is simply bad faction, not only bad for beginners.

Redeyes August 22nd, 2012 06:18 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Madlock (Post 809996)
Geez, is it true even with CBM? You sound like MA Marignon is simply bad faction, not only bad for beginners.

I think many people will agree that MA Marignon is somewhat sorry, even though LA is in a pretty good position.

Executor August 22nd, 2012 08:05 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Bless nations are usually the easiest to play, especially Giants. All of them have a pretty common play style and approach, high N/E bless. However that also means they are extremely predictable.

Magically diverse nations tend to be the hardest to play, but they are also the most powerful if you know your way around them. Nations like EA,MA,LA TC, LA Pyth, LA Bogarus.

If you want a good and easy nation to play that is not bless specific but very strong, take MA Van or LA Midgard with a special emphasis on shapeshifters.

SsSam August 22nd, 2012 10:07 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Madlock (Post 809996)
Geez, is it true even with CBM? You sound like MA Marignon is simply bad faction, not only bad for beginners.

Access to recruitable everywhere blessed chaff with a natural fire bless pushes the early game, but angels are what makes Marignon interesting. Lots of nations have access to cool thug chasis.
Marignon has to push to an early province lead and then keep the steamroller running.
Once you pause to consolidate and give your foes room to breath, it's pretty easy to counter what they have.

Yskonyn August 22nd, 2012 10:53 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Be careful people, we're wandering off in the acronym pile of noise interference here... :)

I'll be taking the advice so far to heart and try a pretender build. I'll try to have my choices documented in a post and put them up for discussion.

Amhazair August 22nd, 2012 04:29 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SsSam (Post 810005)
Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Madlock (Post 809996)
Geez, is it true even with CBM? You sound like MA Marignon is simply bad faction, not only bad for beginners.

Access to recruitable everywhere blessed chaff with a natural fire bless pushes the early game, but angels are what makes Marignon interesting. Lots of nations have access to cool thug chasis.
Marignon has to push to an early province lead and then keep the steamroller running.
Once you pause to consolidate and give your foes room to breath, it's pretty easy to counter what they have.

Their recruitable everywhere sacreds are worthless, (in the numbers they can realistically be recruited due to the holy limit) fire bless does nothing for your abysmal magical diversity (nor does it really help your capital only sacred knights or angel summons) and the angels certainly are cool, but also overcosted after the clam removal. (If we're talking CBM) They have no real means to push to an early province lead (at least less so than almost every other nation. If you sacrifice everything for early game performance you probably can accomplish something, but then you've sacrificed everything of course) and nothing about them resembles steamroller, running or otherwise.

So yeah, I disagree with every word you wrote except that it's pretty easy to counter them. MA Marignon is a poor, poor nation. Was already at the bottom of the pile in vanilla, and the many CBM (or patch) boosts to most other previously weak nations have left them quite alone there.

Executor August 23rd, 2012 03:47 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Plus the units are really ugly lookin'!

Admiral_Aorta August 23rd, 2012 06:14 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
This mod improves some of the marignon unit sprites(as well as some of the other older sprites), and I believe it's going to be incorporated into the next CBM. So at least you'll be able to look good while being one of the worst nations.

TheDemon August 31st, 2012 07:33 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yskonyn (Post 810006)
Be careful people, we're wandering off in the acronym pile of noise interference here... :)

I'll be taking the advice so far to heart and try a pretender build. I'll try to have my choices documented in a post and put them up for discussion.

Respectfully, I disagree with your dismissal of 'the acronym pile of noise'. If you want to master a competitive multiplayer game, you must be willing to learn the jargon its players use. Only the kindest experts will be willing to couch their terminology in explanations for you.


As for the Original Post, what I recommend more than anything is practice. Multiplayer practice is ideal; singleplayer only works with specific goals. For example, can you achieve 20 or even 30 provinces by Early Spring Year 2? With multiplayer practice, focus on simply playing as much (as many games) as possible. The slow pace of Dom3 lends itself to perfectionist play, but perfectionist play is not helpful to a new player.

For example, here we are talking over the specifics of Caelum strategy. Rather than that, just go start up a small singleplayer game, say... 3 Impossible AI + you on a 60 prov map, and try out thunder strike spam tactics for yourself. While perfecting pretender design in this thread will help for the multiplayer game, it doesn't teach you how Caelum actually plays.

Of course, for most tactics it's impossible to adequately evaluate them in a singleplayer game, but you can get a taste. I personally recommend small-scale multiplayer games, since that will allow you to play more at once and finish them, win or lose, quicker. Blitz games on IRC are also helpful in this regard.

A good read is the Beginner section of this book, specifically the Getting Started topic:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

Samhain August 31st, 2012 07:24 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Another great way to learn a lot about the game quickly is to sub a position from a more experienced player somewhere in the turn 35 to 60 range. This will give you a good idea of what you need to try to develop in the preceding turns and what battles look like at that stage.

This is not an unusual situation as this is when turns start to take much longer, especially if the player is doing well. A player at that stage who has a sudden uptick in real life responsibilities often has to bail.

I've done a few of these, often covering the other player for only a week or two, and have learned a lot in every case.

Yskonyn November 11th, 2012 02:00 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Just a short update to let you guys know I am still alive.
RL is frantic at the moment, but I'll be back on this topic. :)

jimbojones1971 November 25th, 2012 03:30 AM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GFSnl (Post 809748)
Start with MA Caelum.

Recruit Mammoth for expansion.
Research evocation 4 and start casting 'Thunder strike' with you mages.
This is one of the easiest but relative powerful setups for competitive play.

I remember being murderinated by you playing Caelum :-)

parone November 25th, 2012 11:12 PM

Re: Overcoming the barrier to understand Dom 3?
 
ysko, over at invision, calahan may be booting up a newbie game in a week or so. he is an Excellent admin. pm me if you'd like, and ill tell you when/if he sets up a newbie game.

who knows, maybe ill be in it. we can diplo eachother to death again...


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:20 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.