German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

German OOB 16

1. The 12 ton SdKfz 8 and the 1 ton SdKfz 10 are both size 3. The SdKfz 10 was one of the smaller WWII halftracks and the SdKfz 8 may have been the largest. The SdKfz 8 is certainly more than twice the size of the SdKfz 10.

The 1 ton SdKfz 10 (unit 436)
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...s/sdkfz-10.asp

The 12 ton SdKfz 8 (unit 434)
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...ks/sdkfz-8.asp

2. Two German HMGs have a range of 44, while Allied HMGs only have a range of 30. Even allied 50cal MGs only have range of 40

Weapon:
193 MG34 HMG
194 MG42 HMG

3. The German MG08/18 MMG (weapon 122) has a range of 30. I believe all other MMGs have a range of 24


Cross

Re: OOB Corrections/Suggestions
 

Have you read the sticky thread on OOB Error reporting posted at the top of this forum?

In particular the following paragraph:

Next time, please post such a multiple mishmash in separate threads for each of the various nations. (Or, append the particular nations post to an already existing one in the forum for the particular nation if you can find one.)

It makes tracking things much easier when doing the annual OOB edits if all you have to do is search the headers rather than blindly search all body text for OOB #3 related stuff.

Plus, if folks then decide to reply to the mishmash post on the topic of one of the nations and others to another bit of it on yet another then it all becomes an incestuous tangle of conversations on different subtopics all mixed into a general pot-luck stew.

So in future - please keep to the published guidelines.

One nation, one post. Simples.

Andy

Re: OOB Corrections/Suggestions
 

Edited

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Thank you. It makes life MUCH easier

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Water-cooled tripod-mounted MGs tend to have in-game range of 30, while air-cooled ones usually have a range of 24.

That 08/18 certainly looks like it has water-cooling.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

The MG34 and MG42 were superior weapons, if you check the actual specifications with the Laffette mount which included integral indirect fire control and the Tiefenfeuerautomat fire control, the 44 range may actually be a bit too pessimistic.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

I know it looks like that in many OOB, but I’ve seen a few air-cooled HMGs with range 30, like the Japanese Type 92 and the French FM14. Which is why I thought the distinction was MMG/HMG not air/water.

Cross

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

The reputations of MG34 and MG42 have been a little embellished. They are good weapons in many ways. Some argue that the MG 34 was actually the better weapon. Tougher, heavier, more reliable, more accurate, with a longer a barrel, and less prone to jerk off target when fired, and it had semi-auto. The MG42 overheats even more rapidly than the MG34, but the barrel is quicker to change.

In the game the MG34 and MG42 HMGs already get an accuracy bonus that other HMGs don’t get. The MG34 gets ACC 25 when it would normally be 20, the MG42 gets 22 when it would be 17.

I agree that both guns can shoot further than 2200m, but so can other tripod MGs. The German guns had a lower muzzle velocity and shorter barrel than some Allied MGs.

The range drum on the Vickers went up to 4500 yards, and the gun came with range finder and telescopic director. And it was water cooled with a much longer barrel than even the MG34.

I don’t think we’re trying to model the longest range that a MG can kill man, as that would be way above the current ranges, but what is a sensible effective range for various tri-pod MGs in the game. Should German HMGs really shoot 33% further than similar Allied weapons?

Cross

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

It's been that way for years,why change it now?
I can hear the moans from german truist already if so;)

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

The Tiefenfeuerautomat system automatically varied the range elevation as the weapon was fired, making it more effective at long ranges by giving a better distribution to the beaten zone. AFAIK this feature was not present on any allied HMG.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

That system just allowed the barrel to move up and down slightly with recoil when they weren’t sure of the range. It’s a classic case of German over-engineering ;)

The maximum range of the Vickers is well documented at 4,500 yards. The longest range I’ve seen for the MG34/42 (from a primary source) is 3,800 yards.

I’m not saying the Vickers should have a longer range than the German guns. Personally, I don’t think SP should model indirect MG fire, except as Z–fire. I would think that anything over 2000m is indirect for these weapons.

Currently, the MG34 and MG42 HMGs get these bonuses:

Accuracy bonus of +5
Double HE Kill and
Ammunition loadout bonus of x2
Range bonus of extra 33%
Faster move speed of 5 (other HMGs move 4)

Which do you think they should get and why?


Cross

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

PSExcuse me but your bias is showing.

If you are going to say 'well documented' and 'primary source' then provide references. There is a difference between maximum range that a bullet may travel and what is considered the maximum effective range for combat purposes. With an automatic weapon the maximum effective range is dependent on accuracy and rate of fire as well as the range of the round itself. Maximum effective range is probabilistic in nature and downrange shot pattern is indeed a factor.

While I don't have the references at hand, there are numerous accounts of machine guns being used in the indirect fire role during WWII. I believe the UK, at least, provided training to machine gun crews for the indirect fire role. As to how effective they were, it seems to have been mostly suppressive in nature rather than a significant source of casualties.

All of them. The weapon stats in the OOBs are the product of over 12 years of hashing and rehashing by every grognard and gearhead who has shown a passing interest. They are as near to being 'correct' as they are going to get given the limitations of the underlying game engine and the nature of the abstractions used in the game model.

Furthermore, note that the ammunition loads and movement speeds are unit issues, not weapon issues. As there have been, I believe, some changes in the units over the past few years, it may be that some errors have crept in there inadvertently.

Frankly, in my opinion, it is about ten years too late to be refactoring weapon stats. Even if in the doubtful case that you are right and everyone else for the past decade and a half has been wrong, to begin making fundamental large scale changes now would threaten to invalidate the assumptions made by designers of many earlier scenarios and campaigns. If you want to see where that leads, take a look at SPWAW today.

Brian

PS: If you, or anyone else, is firmly convinced of a need for a refactoring of weapon stats and/or sweeping changes to unit data, then why not create a mod consisting of a new OOB set?

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Regarding the tripod mounted MG34/42, please notice that there also exists in the game a "regular" version with range of 24.

IIRC the version with 44 range is supposed to represent MG with some sort of telescopic sight added to help with long range firing. Or that is what I think I read on this forum once upon time.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

LOL :D I’m not the one who wants German uber guns, I merely want equality for all nations with similar weapons.
Which demonstrates bias? ;)

Also, at the same time I posted about the German MG’s I also posted four British (full disclosure: I’m British :)) OOB suggestions. Among those I recommended:

• Lowering a Brit HQ primary weapon range from 400yds to 150yds
• Removing top armour from a Brit AFV
• Lowering a Brit MG range from 1500 to 600
• Lowering a Brit AAMG range from 1500 to 1200

Hmmm…where’s the bias?

Reference 1
April 1943 US War Dept document TM E9-206A page 60:
Maximum range of the MG34 with telescopic sight as 3800 yards (3475m)

This is best range I’ve seen in a primary document.
That page also says the average velocity with ball ammunition was measured at 2380 fps.

The MG42 uses same ammo, with shorter barrel and less muzzle velocity, so we can’t expect a better range from the MG42.

More typical is an effective range of 2000-2500 yards

Reference 2
March 1945 US War Dept RESTRICTED Handbook on German Weapons TM E30-451, pages VII-7 and VII-8

says maximum effective range for both the MG34 and MG42 as a tripod mounted heavy machinegun is 2000 – 2500 yards
(1829-2286m)
Says the leaf sight goes up to 2000m (2187yds)

Reference 3
British Army, Small Arms Training
Vol I , .303-inch Machien Gun, Part I, 1941

The range drum, graduated in 100s of yards up to 4,500 yards.
Up to 400 yards one click represents 100 yards. Over 400 yards one click represents 50 yards.

Reference 4
Canadian Army – Small Arms and Machine Guns E 500 RESTRICTED May 1945, page 1

Extreme range – 4,500 yards (4,115m)

Tangent Sight No. 2 MkI for Mk 7 ammo 100 to 2900 yds
Tangent Sight No. 2 Mk2 for Mk 8z ammo 100 to 3700 yds


Reference 5
.300 Vickers Machine Gun, Gale and Polden, 1941, reproduced from Home Guard Manual,
page 25:
Photo of Leaf Sight up to 2400 yards (2187m)

Page 5: Muzzel velocity:
.303 Mk VII ammo 2440 fps
.300 M I ammo 2700 fps



I agree, and have alluded to that several times.


I agree, indirect fire should be suppressive, which is why I’ve said I think we should not have indirect HMG fire except as Z-fire.


Really? Some may see this as revealing a bias.:D

If we use your logic then there’s no point in anyone pointing out any more OOB improvements or corrections because they’ve all been ‘perfected’ already! Come on Brian, surely you’re more familiar with the OOB than that?

I disagree. The SPWW2 OOB have been improved every year for the last 10 years; partly because people like me are willing to point out errors and inconsistencies. And it’s unfair to try and characterize this as a case of me being right and everyone else for the past decade and a half has been wrong.
Another thing is that sources have got better over the last ten years, with many new OOB and WWII documents increasingly available online.

I’m hardly suggesting “sweeping changes to unit data”! Merely pointing out a potential range issue on two weapons! What’s wrong with discussing these weapons and possibly improving the vanilla OOB?

Alright Brian, I’ve referenced the primary document evidence you requested for Vickers, MG34 and MG42 ranges, but I still haven't seen any evidence for your views?

Cross

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

I think you’re right. We have three classes of tripod MGs:

Range 24 MMG
Range 30 HMG
Range 44 HMG with telescopic sight

Cross

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

There is one standard range for the Vickers-Maxim type tripod MMG of rifle calibre and a slightly shorter one for their air-cooled cousins.

The 44 for this one particular isolated database item is simply a data error that will need rectification. (Our 1970s GPMGs had a telescopic sight in the S/F kit - that did not make the bullets go any further.)

HMGs are 12.7mm and similar, and have their own standard range - 40 - which this thing out-ranges.

(And yes I know that some armies call rifle calibre MMGs "HMGs" - maybe if it had a water jacket - but for the purposes of game data, we don't care what the Ruritanians call theirs, or that some database designer has labelled the item as such. )

Andy

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

The bottom line here is when someone brings up an issue on the forums unless I think it's completely out to lunch it goes on my list and when I start doing OOB work I consider what's been presented then decide to implement it.....or not. I make the final decision

In the case of the MG34/42 as an HMG they were given a bit more range... THREE YEARS AGO...because when they are fully kitted out as a HMG they have a telescopic sight and no other HMG in WW2 was so equipped and that's why they are 44 when the 12.7//50 cal weapons are 40.




Don

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Unit 899 "PzKw T70 743(r)"
Unit picture shows a captured T-26 tank, but this is a T-70 tank.
- Suggest using picture "75" for T-70 tank or replacing the photo.

Here are some photos of T-70 tank in German use:
http://beute.narod.ru/Beutepanzer/su/t-70/t-70-7.html

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Perhaps those units armed with the "enhanced range" version of MG34/42 could have in the unit information section a brief description about the reasons why they have longer range than other similar tripod mounted weapons?

Something like: "This units represents tripod-mounted MG with telescopic sight. The longer range shows their ability to engage targets at longer ranges than regular MGs.".

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

According to the documents above, the MG34/42 telescopic sight was good out to 3800 yards, and the Vickers Tangent sight was good out to 3700 yards.

Here’s the Vickers with Tangent sight:

http://i47.tinypic.com/j6hh20.png


One possibility would be to have a MMG and HMG version of the Vickers.

1. Vickers MMG with leaf sight. Range 30
2. Vickers HMG with Tangent sight. Range 40



Cross

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Okay, here's what I spotted, while working on pictures. As a reference I use mainly different booklets Panzer Tracts by T. Jentz, being probably ultimate sources on German armour.

1 Pzkw-Ib - proper picture for Ib is 21015 or 18075 (42015 shows Ia and is used for Chinese Ia). Ib was delivered since 8/36 (now 9/35) (Jentz).

By the way: wouldn't "PzKpfw" for all tanks look nicer and more original?... :) (Apart from Panthers, that don't really need PzKw/PzKpfw prefix) Also, original designations had capital Ausf. letters. I understand, that it was probably decided years ago, but it's just my suggestion which you might ignore...

11, 850, 941 PzKw IIIj - it has picture 5 of older variant E-G (old sprocket wheels)

12, 851, 869, 942 PzKw IIIj/1 - picture 6 shows much older B-D variant.
They have the same icon, as short-gun IIIj.
Wouldn't a better name be Pzkw-IIIJ L60?

033,722 Brummbaer - according to Jentz, this name of Sturmpanzer IV was conceived by the Allied intelligence only.

059 sFH 13 LrS (f) - first completed only in June 1942 (Jentz) (now: 4/42). (It should be armed with 15cm sFH-13 howitzer with probably much more range, not sIG-33 infantry gun.)

062 Moebelwagen-2cm - according to Jentz, only one experimental Mobelwagen with Flakvierling was completed, and then it was decided to continue development of 3.7cm Mobelwagen, and "the single experimental chassis was converted to mount a 3.7cm Flak 43" (contrary to popular belief, spread by old Tamiya model...)
Maybe it could be changed to late SdKfz-7/1 with Flakvierling and armoured cab, available from late 1942?

065 sIG Ib - picture 133 shows sIG 38 ausf H (below)

066 sIG38(t) Grille - early model ausf H (with combat compartment in a middle), has a picture 35 of late variant M

155 SdKfz 69 Protze (light truck) - should be just Kfz 69 Protze. But we have another unit 453 Kfz 69 (utility vehicle), and one of them might be renamed Kfz 70, which was a designation of light truck, while Kfz 69 was a designation of artillery tractor body.

157 Maultier - this should be actually not Maultier (name of half-track truck), but Panzerwerfer 42

303, 304 PzKw 9TP(p) - science fiction units. 9TP didn't even exist in Polish army, not to mention German army. 303 could be ordinary 7TP, with front armour 2 - there are known photos of captured tanks, although they were probably not used as frontline machines. They were not numerous anyway. There are nice photos of German 7TPs, that I can provide.
As for 304, it's rather impossible, that any survived after 1941-42.

324 Flak36/Zugkrwgn - 3.7cm flak, has a wrong picture of SdKfz-10/4 (2cm). I don't know, what it is supposed to be, because there is a separate unit #483 SdKfz 7/2 and they are totally inconsistent (crew 10 vs 6, size etc). #324 could be earlier SdKfz 6/2, actually produced from June 39 (now: 1/39), but its data should be similar (it was a bit smaller, than 7/2). According to Jentz, both had crew of 7. On the other hand, unit #483 could be late SdKfz 7/2 with armoured cab, available from 1943.

337, 341, 349 HS-123 - better name Hs 123 (and consistent with others)

352 PzKw IIIa/d - proper picture for b-d is 27514 (it has a picture 4 of Pz IIIe.)

404 PzKw IIIb/d (s) - same as 352

430 PzKw IIIL has a picture 23145 showing apparently PzKpfw-IV. It has icon with skirts, while it has no Heat side armour.

433 Flammpanzer III has icon with skirts, while it has no Heat side armour

561 PzKw IVd - possible error in a name - it has a picture of IVf2 and long gun.

583, 584 PzKw IIIf-3.7cm, PzKw IIIg-3.7cm - proper picture is 4 - they have picture 5 of 5cm-gun variant (bigger barrel, external mantlet), used for IIIj in the game in addition.

Regards
Michal

Well Michal since you are a Jentz-o-phile perhaps you can confire he wrote.....

If so I can free up at least three unit slots in the German OOB

Don

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Unfortunately, I haven't came across a book on late Pz-IIIs. But if you want to free some slots (does it not spoil scenarios?), I've made a study on early Pz-IIIs from Jentz books ;) I've learnt much on these tanks on the occasion.

I'll list them in chronological order, rather than numerical:

352 PzKw IIIa/d - hull and turret sides and rear had 14.5mm, so maybe armour should be 2? (now 1). On the contrary, turret front had 16mm (now 4).
They were withdrawn from combat units by spring of 1940 (now: 8/41) - apart from "some" tanks of PzAbt z.b.V.40 assigned for special operations in far North starting in summer 1941.
As I wrote, proper picture is 27514.
Maybe two CMGs should be replaced with a paired weapon 154, like in Pz-I?

404 PzKw IIIb/d (s) - there's no info on any strengthening of their armour, which should be as above.
In this case, maybe 352 should represent Pz-IIIa only, which had the same data, but very different look?

BTW: Jents wrote, that HE round for 37mm was adapted as standard issue in Feb.40, but I don't know, if it means, that there were none before.

279 PzKw IIIe - first IIIe appeared in 1/39, with significant deliveries from 7/39 (now: 6/40), and were used in Polish campaign.
Turret front was only 30mm (now 5). Rear hull of E/F was 20mm slightly sloped - up to 30deg (now 3) (it should differ from Pz-IIIg, which had 30mm)

All 37mm-armed Pz-III should have a twin CMG in a turret (refers also to tanks below).

07 PzKw IIIe-3.7cm [variant with sabot ammo, first date 6/40 OK] - armour as above.
Radio code 82 is incorrect (for the French campaign at least) - IIIe wasn't a numerous variant (only 96 made). In fact, its data should be identical, as #583 IIIf below.

583 PzKw IIIf-3.7cm [variant with sabot ammo] - sabot ammo was officially accepted in 6/40 (now: 7/40). In fact, PzIIIf without sabot appeared in 10/39 (or even a bit earlier), but this period might be as well covered by 279 Pz-IIIe.
Radio code might be 82 - it was the most common variant during the French campaign.
Notes on armour and twin CMG as above (as IIIe 3.7cm).
They were used until early 1941 at least (now 9/40) (last were produced in 7/40)
As I wrote before, proper picture is 4.

584 PzKw IIIg-3.7cm [variant with sabot ammo] - sabot ammo was introduced in 6/40 (now 9/40) (first IIIg were completed in 3/40, though). They were sure used until early 1941 at least.
Turret for 3.7cm was identical, as PzIIIe-f, with only 30mm in front (now: 6).
There's little difference from 37mm-gun E or F - only rear armour was increased from 20 to 30mm.


08 PzKw IIIf-5cm - turret front of early 5cm variants was only 35mm (now 5), rear hull of E/F was 20mm (now 3). First date 8/40 is OK, last might be early 1941.

579 PzKw IIIe-5cm - armour as above. It seems however redundant, since it represents PzIIIe retrofitted with 5cm gun, while they were identical, as late PzIIIf, but relatively rare (only 96 basic IIIe made). They started to be converted from 12/40 BTW (now: 8/40).

It could be changed to uparmoured Pz-IIIF or G, used from 12/40, with additional 30mm front and rear plates and possibly 50mm mantlet (armour 6/3/5/5/3/3/2 in case of F or 6/3/6... in case of G). We have however uparmoured Pz-IIIh.
If it's deleted, 07 PzKw IIIe-3.7cm could be renamed simply to IIIe.

09 PzKw IIIg-5cm - first Pz-IIIg with 5cm were accepted in 7/40 (now 9/40), and it's worth to make them first available 5-cm variants. I don't know however, if sabot for 5cm should start so early (389 PzKw IIIf-5cm with sabot starts at 1/41)
Front hull armor was only 30 (now 6), turret's - 35 (now 6) - only from the end of 1940 they started to be fitted with additional plates on hull front and rear. Only late production tanks were given 50mm mantlet (it isn't known exactly when)

PzKpfw IIIh is rather OK, although turret front was only 35 or 50 mm (now 6)

Michal

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

I forgot one more:

389 PzKw IIIf-5cm - represents variant with 5cm sabot, from 1/41, and non-strengthened armour (since 12/40 there could be extra 30mm on front and rear, but there remained also unmodified tanks). Anyway, rear hull of F should be 2, and turret front was 35mm (there was a later variant of 50mm mantlet, but it's not clear when they started to be fitted - writing on Pz-IIIh, Jentz calls 50mm mantlet "option").

Michal

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

I dont recall how Panzer IVs are labelled in the game, but the F2 version only existed for a few months as well:

March 21st 1942:
- Ausf. F1 = Ausf. F with KwK 37 7,5cm L/24
- Ausf. F2 = Ausf. F with KwK 40 7,5cm L/43

June 5th 1942:
- All Panzer IV with the KwK 40 7,5cm L/43 to be known as Ausf. G.

The planned change for the Ausf. G was simply the new gun and associated changes to ammo stowage etc., so there was no difference between the last Ausf. F2 and the first Ausf. G

The reason for the two designations was that the upgunning planned for the Ausf. G started before the Ausf. F contract had been fulfilled, so that the last 230 Ausf. F were completed as Ausf. G, but labelled Ausf. F2 for a short period.

So you could just remove the F1s and and F2s if there are any in the OOBs - and of course people would then start pointing out the "error" :)

Source: Spielberger: "Begleitwagen Panzerkampfwagen IV" p. 178

Same thing with the Panzer III Ausf. J and L with the 5cm L/60 gun as per your Jentz quote from Panzer Tracts 3-3 p. 40 and 42.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Thanks Claus, in the case of the Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.J there were three genuine duplicates of the J as L versions I was able to remove plus one Flammpanzer III. ( and all that caused was one minor correction of one scenario )

I'll use this info and look at the Panzer IV's and see if there are any similar duplication. If there is a legitimate reason to have it in, even for a month, I'll leave it alone.


Don

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

05 PzKw II Luchs B - according to Jentz&Doyle's encyclopedia, 5 cm variant was never produced...

35 StuG IIIb - according to Jentz, series completed from July 1940 (now starts at 6/40). But the only difference from Stug IIIa in the game is an addition of SMG.

059 sFH 13 LrS (f) - it was armed with 15cm sFH-13 howitzer, with range of 8600 m, not sIG-33 infantry gun (4700 m).
It would be worth to add towed 15cm sFH-13, available from 1930 by the way.

85 7.6cm PaK 36(r) - proper photo of Soviet m.1936 F-22 gun used as Pak 36 is 28012

118 Do 217J - 217J was a night fighter. Bomber could be named 217E.

132 10.5cm Haubitze - it's a detail, but a two-tail icon would be more real-like

133 12.2cm Haubitze - a detail as well, but an icon has way too long barrel

250, 263 FJg PzBuechse, GebJg PzBuechse - correct picture for PzB 39 is 70 or 27102 - now it's Solothurn or something like that

319 15.2cm FK Btr - proper picture for ML-20 gun is 23607 (although with older wheels) or 23509 - currently it's D-1 152mm howitzer (rare in German service, if any).

326 22cm Mrs Btr - strange unit, should be changed to something else IMO. Judging from a weapon 22cm Mrs 32(p), it's Polish wz.32 Skoda mortar, but there were no more, than 30 such mortars in the Polish army, part were destroyed or captured by the Soviets, and their German usage is not widely known. Besides, it wasn't a field gun, but a siege one, without HE ammo, but AP. And the photo shows something else.

414, 415 3.7cm TaK 30 - probably the picture should be 42011 - currently it's Bofors. But did such gun exist at all?...

423, 424 - Kfz 13, 14 - may I suggest new icons? Grey BA-64 could be almost perfect for Kfz 13.

449 - 5cm LeGrW 36 - picture shows some generic medium mortar, not 5 cm, which looked very specific.

464, 466 PzKw 38H 735(f), PzKw 39H 735(f) - their pictures are swapped (464 should have short gun, 466 - long one) - or there could be 27679 for a long-gun one. 937 PzKw 39H 735(f) also should have a short gun picture.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

I've found info, that 14 were captured. But as I've said, they were siege artillery, very bulky, and HE ammo wasn't produced in Poland. Reportedly also some were captured in Yugoslavia, with different designation. More numerous was Czech heaviest artillery.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

I am once again updating my custom OB pack and I am actually quite pleased that some of the suggestions/corrections I made back in 2009/10 made it into the v5 set so I figured I would make some more as they are still fresh in my mind. Please forgive me if I somehow fail to follow the suggestion procedure. Also if any of these were in fact included, but I just missed them please let me know.

Panzerkampfwagen II mit Schwimmkörper (aka Schwimmpanzer II): Amphibious Pz II developed for operation Sea lion and then used on the eastern front.

Panzer II Ausf. G : Basically a hybrid between an F and Lynx with an EW 141 main weapon that started appearing in late 41. 12 built, none apparently used in combat, but that's more that can be said for a lot of other vehicles currently in the list.

Panzer II Ausf. J : Think Panzer II G meets Panzer I F. Infantry support tank with thicker armour , but same 2cm Kwk. 22 built between 4/42 and 12/42 and were deployed to eastern front and Normandy. This would be a must include.

Flakpanzer 1: Panzer 1 with 20mm Flak gun on it. Fought in and around Stalingrad.

Panzer 38(t) Ausf G: Last 38(t) production variant with thicker turret side armor and possibly reduced ammunition load.

Munitionsträger Hummel : Ammo carrier based on a Hummel chassis that was designed to accompany Hummel units. 150 built. Might be included with formation changes.

Kugelblitz: Hot SP-AA vehicle on Pz IV chassis. Apparently some did see service at the very very end of the war.

Waffentrager 88: I have a picture of a Flak 18 gun on what looks like a Pz IId chassis and 10 years ago when I was researching the unit I remember it was referred to as a Waffentrager 88. All I have left from that research is the SP unit I created from it, but there is a picture so something existed.

Panzer III Ammo Carrier: A number of Pz III's had their turrets removed and were used as ammo carriers on the eastern front. They were called something line Munitiontrager III. Would be a nice to have if there is space.

VG 44 aka Gustloff Volkssturmgewehr: Magazine fed 7.93x33 carbine issued in 1945 to VG units. 10,000 made. Would be nice to see in some of the many VG units, but weapons slots are at a premium.

Those are my suggestions. Again I apologize if these have been discussed before.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

A source for that information would be helpful. The only difference in armour I can find between the E and G is the upper and lower hull front and turret front is one solid piece of 50mm armour instead of 25+25 with the result that there are fewer bolts on frontal plate, turret and engine deck.

Nothing about additional turret side armour so lets hear what you have on that ....

Don

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Since all the current online records indicate that the G has effectively the same armour as the E I'll believe that over something I read on a website 10 years ago, but I might try looking through my paper records. I suspect the references to the G's extra armour was simply comparing it to the D.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Michal, in the "encyclopedia of german tanks of ww2" by Chamberlain and Doyle I just found this on page 92: "Later, in 1943, several Ausf D were refitted with 7.5cm KwK L/48 for use with training and replacement units". There is also a photo of the upgunned tank.

Mario

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Chamberlain & Doyle (Encyclopedia.....) says the same thing as does Spielberger in his book on Czech armour.

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

114 Panzerbuechse - there were 568 PzB 39 in 9/39 available (now starts at 1/40). There is only #250 FJg PzBuechse available from 7/39, but I don't think, that they were used by paratroops only then (and the paras generally weren't fighting in Poland at all)

BTW, the weapon could be better named just PzB 39, not 38/39 - 38 was a semi-auto weapon, which wasn't finally accepted and found very limited use, while PzB 39 was a different mass-produced weapon. Since they aren't available before 1939, there's no need to bother with marginal PzB 38, developed before 1939.

Maybe it's a good idea to rename "Panzerbuechse" units to indicate PzB model?

318 15.2cm Batterie - I'll attach proper picture of Soviet M-10 howitzer (now it's late-war D-1)

335 4.5cm PaK 184/1 - it has a picture of short-barrel gun. A proper picture for long barrel 45 mm is eg. Pm29366

346 MG08/18 MMG Grp - has first availability date later, than second

425 PzSpw.AB 41 - it would be worth to find a photo of specific German one. I'm attaching one proposal.

434 SdKfz 8 - current picture is SdKfz 7, what is evident by spoked wheels. I'm attaching a proposal.

467 PzKw T38 732(r) - the picture is actually T-37

495 GebJg PzBuechse - picture used in the game for 13.2mm ATR is 309 (I'm not sure however, if it's not PzB-39) - now it's probably 20 mm Solothurn. I'm attaching alternative 309 picture of 13.2mm Mauser.

570 PzKpfw Ia - it's a matter of months, and Jentz does not write clearly here, but starting date 7/34 is too optimistic - seems, that none were operational before 1/35 (first armoured divisions were being created during 1935. It might affect formations.

586, 587 P174/178 L204f - AFAIK there was no such car, as Panhard 174, just 178, and its German designation was for sure P204(f). I think, that German designation "P204(f)" should be enough, or "Panhard P204f". I'm attaching German pictures to replace generic one.

600 Panzerbuechse - picture - same as 495 above - now it's PzB-39. I'm attaching alternative 309 picture of 13.2mm Mauser.

BTW, what's a difference between weapons #142 Mauser T-Gewehr used by unit 600 and #90 13.2mm Mauser used by unit 417?.. AFAIK it is the same weapon.

601 Panzerbuechse - proper picture for Polish wz.35 AT rifle is 23510 (current 115 is PTRS - same situation in Polish oob)

603 Pzbuechse SS - correct weapon's designation is PzB M.SS.41, not MPzB 41

604 Ost Pzbuechse - picture should be Russian PTRD (eg. 23151 or 27105)

605 Ost Pzbuechse - pictures should be Russian PTRS (eg. 23150 or 27106).

734, 793 MG249(p) HMG - I can't find such designation, but if it's Polish wz.30 Browning (what suggests letter "p"), then picture 29695 would be more appropriate (now it's Vickers).

817 4.5cm PaK 184/1 - as unit 335 - proper picture for long barrel 45 mm is Pm29366

834 PzKw IIa/b - photo 27513 shows later variant, not initial a/b (small letters), which had six small roadwheels on a frame (there were later variants A/B with standard chassis, but availability dates suggest earlier ones)

842 SdKfz ADGZ - ADGZ is never used with "SdKfz" (which was used with numers only, btw). It could be names Steyr ADGZ (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_ADGZ )

867, 868 630(r)3.7cm PaK - should be 630(f) (French) (or just UE instead of number)

875 sFH 13 LrS (f) - it has apparently picture of Marder I - could be just 0032 instead, or new picture with grey camo
(It should be armed with 15cm sFH-13 howitzer, with longer range, than sIG-33 infantry gun).

577, 939 PzKw B-2 740(f) - actually "B2" without "-".

925, 926 Do 17E, 17P - new picture of this "flying pencil" would ne nice - now it's late-war Do 217. I'm attaching a proposal.

927, 928 Do 17Z - I'm attaching a proposal picture for Do-17Z - now it's late-war Do 217

954 Pz T34a 747(r) - picture is T34b with F-34 gun, not earlier one with L-11 gun. I'm attaching a proposal in German service.

968 sIG38/2 (t) - according to Jentz's Panzer Tracts, apparently only one experimantal vehicle was produced. And it was open-topped.

976 sIG38/1 (t) - according to Jentz, it was produced only from 12/43 - now 5/43 (earlier there was older rear-engined model). This source recognizes old and new model as "Gw 38 fur sIG33/1" and "Gw 38M fur sIG33/2" respectively, or Grille and "Grille ausf K". In short could be "Gw38M sIG33/2" or Grille K.

978 SturmIG 33B - German short designation was StuIG 33 (without B)

997 Horch Kfz.70 - picture is Krupp Protze (Kfz.70)

Regards

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Do you think you could possibly explain to me why, both last year and this, you wait until you know we are doing the final checks on the latest patch before dropping all this in my lap ??

Hmmmm ???

Explain please why not two months ago ?? Even a month ago ?? I would LOVE to know why you think waiting till the last minute is the best way to do this instead of ......oh IDK... last November even. Why March ??

Hmmmm ???

Why wait until the last couple of weeks ?

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

I knew it. Sorry, it's just a coincidence, that I started working upon pictures mod for SPWW2 only in February this year. Nobody told me about any deadline. If you had mentioned it after my first message in this topic a month ago, I'd complete it in few days. I was just spotting errors at own pace, as a side activity.

I hope, that you find some comments useful anyway - most are simple picture or name issues. If not, maybe next year...

Sorry to annoy you.

Regards
Michal Derela

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

March is ALWAYS when we are in the final testing and assembly of the patches. Has been for a number of years now

The info is welcome but your timing is terrible and two years in a row is a pattern....you did the same thing last year. I have already made a number of changes to that OOB which I think some of yours covers as well and *IF* I get a break in what I need to do I will look into this but, as I said, your timing is poor. I'm already putting in 16+ hour days and just logging on to the forums is a distraction I don't need some days

*IF* I hadn't thought you were done after the previous post I would have said something but I figured that was it and that last one came in just before I was finsihed with OOB work so it fit in to the schedule. I mean really.. that OOB has been gone over by more people than I care to count. It's usually a surprise when someone finds something to complain about and I figured you were done... the last thing I expected at this stage was another long list of "issues" for that OOB

Don

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

OK, I can see you point. I didn't know, that March is a time for updates for both games. As you might have seen, I wasn't active here before. So, I'll wait for newest files :)

(last year, with SPMBT, the situation was a bit different, since I had started several months before, and only I tried to throw as much corrections, as I could, before a deadline... )

Regards
Michal

Re: German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions
 

Only a small clarification:

Encyclopedia of German tanks calls it StuIG 33B, but in definite Panzer Tracts Jentz refers to it just as Sturminfanteriegeschuetz 33.