Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

I don't know if this idea has been brought up before (for all I know it's a feature of practically every mod out there) but is it possible to have open-ended tech levels? For example, in the normal game there is a limited number of levels of cloaking (3?) with a slightly larger level of scanners. Would it be possible to create a set up where there is no maximum limit to the level of cloaking and scanners, where there could be a constant race between the two technologies? It seems that something like this could be interesting for cloaking, scanners, ship sizes, shield and weapon phasing levels, etc.

I've looked at the various text configuration files, but there doesn't seem to be any obvious way to do it. I suppose a similar effect could be achieved by manually adding in an incredibly large number of levels (I've seen the ultimate ship size mod -- very cool) but it would be nice if there was a way to just set up certain tech areas as being unlimited.

Or maybe my games just Last too long. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif One of the things I love about SEIV is how *big* it is, compared to other space 4X games. So many systems, planets, players, technologies, etc. I'd love to see a game that had infinite levels in all of those areas (subject to memory limitations). I suppose empires with thousands of planets would be impractical for multiplayer games, but they'd be fun for singleplayer ones.

Eric

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Unfortunatly (or maybe fortunatly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) there is no way to leave a tech open ended as you suggest. What you said about adding additional levels of a component is the only way to do it. You would be only limited by the number of components that can fit in the compnents.txt file. Which is 64,000 compnents according to Malfador.

Geo

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

The other way to approach it is to increase the research point cost of everything. Then, when/if your games Last longer than normal you'll still be plugging away at tech.

(I assume you are already using Research Cost set to High...)

Extending the shorter tech threads out to Level X instead of III or V would do wonders as well. At medium & high costs, the incremental cost of techs increases exponentially.

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

At least in ship sizes I made a mod where they grow until they become too big to be practical.
You can't make it open ended, but it's possible to add say 50 more levels of cloaking.

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

eric, what you just described (infinite tech levels) is something that i am working on in a game i am doing with a bunch of other people. Yes it is a 4X game and yes it is definitely *big*

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: chewy027 ]</p>

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Actually I used a spreadsheet to make the ultimate vehicle size mod and then combined the values into a text file.
Something similar could be done with some components / facilities ect.

Yes this game is really huge but for some reason we want to make it much bigger!

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

I once ask for the same thing, Eric. I HATE scrapping all my scientific and research facilities when all tech levels are achieved. In later stages of a game, the technology part simply disappears. That's not logic, IMHO.

An idea could be making some features of components or facilities "infinite". I mean, for example, the power of direct-fire weapons. With a technology called "Direct-fire power" with infinite tech levels of dramatically growing cost. The result of achieving each level is a small increase of all your direct-fire weapons power. The cost is important. For example:

Direct-fire power: +Y damage of every DF weapon

Cost(level 1) = X rp.
Cost(level 2) = Cost(level 1)*2 rp.
Cost(level 3) = Cost(level 2)*4 rp.
Cost(level 4) = Cost(level 3)*8 rp.
...

Same could be done with seeker speed, armor resistances, storage capacities, etc. So, scientific research will always be a very important thing, no matter how many time the game Lasts.

It's only an idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Shyrka, what you describe is exactly what I was thinking. I've never seen a 4X game where technology works like that, although chewy027 says he's working on one. I'd be very interested in seeing it when it's ready.

I figured that it probably wasn't possible to mod SEIV to have infinite tech levels. It's a fundamental change in how the tech system works. I wonder if it would be considered for SEV, though.

It's been suggested that ship sizes could increase to the point where they would be too big to be practical. That is a possibility, although I think that could be controlled by economic issues, especially in a finite resources game.

This discussion has made me interested in creating a not-infinite-but-still-pretty-darn-big tech mod. Ideally, I'd like to include not only extensive levels of technology, but a tremendous variety of technologies. Of course, I've never created a mod before (in fact I've only been playing the game for a few months) so it's not something I can see whipping up over the weekend. There are so many things to consider... how to make the tech interesting, how to balance it so that research doesn't eclipse all other considerations in empire management... I can hear the wheels spinning already.

Eric

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

MOO2 had infinite tech levels. Each tech level would make the stuff in that tech tree a little bit smaller, so you could put more stuff in the same amount of space, thereby making weapons and such more powerful with each new tech level.

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

You know I have heard that about MOO2 before. I never played it. (Although a friend handed me the disk today. I shall check it out soon, just out of curiosity.)

How is it practical for this to go on for ever? I mean dont you reach a point where the size of the comp is equal to whatever unit of size is used for components? There has to be some point at which you have say, "that's small enough"

Geo

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Funny you should mention that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Take a look at the basic tech mod, which is still in the old downloads section. I started it quite a while ago, but came to the conclusion that it would be too time consuming to complete by hand. The research structure was three-dimensional. For missiles, you could research launchers to reduce reload time, missiles to increase seeker speed and range, and warheads to increase damage and seeker dmg resistance. Most armors have a similar setup with 10 or even 15 levels per dimension. Most research only gives incremental benefits; I didn't think a DUC LXXXVI needed to have 5280 damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Recently, I've been working on developing a program to automate the generation of components, from 1-dimensional research to x-dimensional research. You input tech reqs, a base level for things like tonnage space and structure, cost, supply usage, ability values, etc., and give a rate of increase (or decrease) applied to the component at level up based on the levels of each technology. I'm currently working on making it a Windows-based program instead of crummy text, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif which is an interesting task since I've never Windows programmed before. Actually, I've never even attempted a program of this scale before, so it's been...challenging. When completed, it will allow anyone to quickly create as many levels of Component X as you could possibly want in the time it would take to create two or three levels by hand. If anyone's interested, let me know; this is definitely in progress, and isn't going to be completed in the next day or two (suicide_junkie, I don't know how you do it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), but I'll keep plugging away until it's done. Then, I just might get that Basic Tech Mod done.

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Krsqk ]</p>

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

MOO2 does have infinite tech levels, but as you might expect the benefits (except for final score) stop eventually. Components do reach a minimum size which I think is more than just 1 of whatever unit of measure the game uses. I tried playing MOO2 again a few weeks ago and just couldn't get into it. It seemed so limited and boring; I guess SEIV has spoiled me.

Eric

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Ack! So you can keep researching but you get nothing for it? LOL. That would be easy to mod. Just add a tech area of "General Research" to the research areas text file. Give it what ever the maximum allowable number for Maximum Level is. I am not sure what that is exactly. Should be able to work it out by trial and error. My guess is 255.

Then no components that need that as a prereq. You would get no tech from the research,but you would get a small bump in your score every time you reached another level since tech levels are factored into yoru score. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geo

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>(suicide_junkie, I don't know how you do it!)<hr></blockquote>I do what is easy, and make the user do the rest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Hehe. In general it works quite well, since you make the computer to the boring repetitions, and the user does the complicated thinking.
The result isn't commercial grade, but it is just a tool, and it works. "Build the axe, not the Tinman" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

"When completed, it will allow anyone to quickly create as many levels of Component X as you could possibly want in the time it would take to create two or three levels by hand."

Niice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

that sounds good.

PBEM game I play in we streched out cloaking to 10 levels, ships to 20 levels.

If cloaking could be streched out to 100 levels that would be great.

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Thought I'd mention that the beta-Version of the Component Creator is almost complete. It would be done sooner, if not for all the work on my graduate recital and projects. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I have two options to debate, given the guiding philosophy of "ax not the tinman". I can either generate the component data into a window to be cut/pasted into Components.txt by the user; or I can save the data as a text file in a subdirectory, to be later cut-pasted into Components.txt. (The "final" Version will include the option to save the raw data (not SEIV-ready) to files to be loaded and edited later.) Which would be the better option?

Also, given the same philosophy, I am assuming that most Users will wish to generate SEIV-friendly files. Therefore, I am not idiot-proofing the program. You can't enter alpha family numbers or damage amounts, for example, but you're not prevented from crashing the game with extravagantly large values. This is a tool for responsible individuals who aren't looking for excuses to file lawsuits. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, any feedback would be appreciated. Once I finish comp generation, I'll post a beta Version to get comments.

Krsqk

P.S. I'm programming this in Python with the wxPython extension (a Python-enabled port of the wxWindows GUI). Anyone with experience in it? Any thoughts on it? Then again, I guess that's a bit OT for this thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Krsqk ]</p>

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

"You can't enter alpha family numbers or damage amounts, for example, but you're not prevented from crashing the game with extravagantly large values."

Why not? IIRC the value that kills SE4 is pretty well-defined. I'm having a hard time figuring out why Users wanting to have SE4 friendly files precludes preventing values that crash SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Values that don't DO anything are another story, since they can have usefullness in their own way..

Phoenix-D

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Krsqk:
P.S. I'm programming this in Python with the wxPython extension...<hr></blockquote>Wow, Python, I programmed some little things in Python for a game called Blade whose 3D engine interface was in that language. But why Python here? I think Delphi or VB would be easier (But not free http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) I had very good experience with that language.

BTW, I'm very interested in your program http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

If writing text to a file in that language is reasonably simple, then do both.
Since you have the "save raw data" thing, AND the display SE4-readable code on the screen as the other option, I'm assuming you can do it fairly easily.

If you want, you could create a separate compiler program, which would turn a raw data file into a components.txt.

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

"Values that don't DO anything are another story, since they can have usefullness in their own way." --Phoenix-D

Yep, like Ancient Ruins on components. All abilities are available for use.

"But why Python here? I think Delphi or VB would be easier (But not free http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )"--Shyrka

Free--that's right. My whole idea was to find an easy language and a free compiler. I was going to do this in BASIC, but then I thought that maybe it would be nice to make it portable and post it here.

"I had very good experience with that language."--Shyrka

Me, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Very easy, very intuitive, and very powerful, not to mention extendable.

"If writing text to a file in that language is reasonably simple, then do both."--SJ

Very simple. The on-screen display will probably be the most practical for the end-user; but, hey, who am I to decide? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think later Versions will have the option to combine all files into a Components.txt, but not this time. Just don't expect me to process all data files and keep track of the maximum levels used for each tech area. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm in final bug testing, and I'll try to have it in EXE form by Wed. night. If it's not done by then, it will probably be Sat. before it's done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Well, you could mod the files so it would seem like there were infinite levels...

[ 07 February 2002: Message edited by: Instar ]</p>

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Good news/bad news. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Good news first: After months (ok, parts of a couple of weeks) of hard labor (fiddling), the Component Creator is officially finished! Well, at least Version 0.75 of it is. I wanted to post it and get some feedback from modders\modders-to-be\players who want to be modders but haven't had time.

Bad news: The initial download is a hefty 2.05MB. (Sorry to all dial-up Users like me.) This is due to the size of the DLL I'm using. I haven't figured out yet how to extract only the functions I need from it and link to them in a smaller DLL. However, the good news is that future updates will be in the 300KB range; so added features won't mean another 10 minute download.

The entire package is included in a self-extracting RAR file; just extract to your SEIV directory. It will create a "Component Creator" directory with the required files and two sub-directories. If, for some reason, you would rather have a different archive format, post and let me know; the RAR just saved 400KB over ZIP, which modem Users appreciate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, enough jabber; here it is:

Component Creator.exe

Please comment--this is definitely a work-in-progress. If you have questions, please see the included readme first.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Krsqk ]</p>

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

"However, the good news is that future updates will be in the 300KB range; so added features won't mean another 10 minute download."

hehheheheh, try three seconds.

Damn I love broadband. Anyway, the download thread you posted it to- there IS a thread for Modding Tools/Information, you probably couldn't see it because it's been inactive for a long while. Check the upper left (IIRC) of the forum when you're there to change the number of threads displayed.

Phoenix-D

Re: Open-Ended Tech Levels?
 

Thanks for the pointer. I didn't think to show the Last 75 days of topics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That thread hadn't been touched since December 3rd and only had one other post. My "inappropriate" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif new thread has been banished to the abyss and the subject matter has been relocated to its proper home--"Space Empires IV: Modding and other Help Tools/Information"--which, btw, has been conveniently bumped up to the top of the modding forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I hate broadband Users. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif