About green dragon
 

In cbm
Green dragon is much more powerful than the others dragon.

bile(aoe10)
prot22
dom 2(others is 1)

All that makes green dragon almost can attack any indy,even heavy cavalery

If you want to expand very quickly,use green dragon and set it awake.

So i doubt that is it too powerful in cbm,and maybe we should nerf it.

Re: About green dragon
 

Note that bile is a poison breath attack, so it does not do direct damage but is applied over time instead. This gives the dragon's targets time to attack it in melee and possibly do significant damage to it.

The frost breath and fire breath of the blue and red dragons do direct damage and thus eliminate any units they hit instantly if the damage is high enough.

As far as the Dominions strength difference, that may or may not be a mod error. I don't know.

Re: About green dragon
 

The dominions difference appears to be an error in the CBM mod. On the selection screen all the dragons say starting dominion 1, and after selection the base dom for the Red and Blue dragons are 1 and the base dom for the Green dragon shows as 2.

The mod is inconsistent with itself from one screen to the next, so it is definitely a bug.

Re: About green dragon
 

If someone choose dragon which is awake as the pretender,the mostly use of it is expansion.And then you will find that "bile" is much more useful than "frost breath"&"fire breath" to kill indys.
And because of Dom2&prot22&flying&fear,Green dragon is the most effective pretender for expasion in the early game.

Re: About green dragon
 

i stink with dragons. but still, i don't see while the bile attack is better than frost/fire breath.

the most convincing case for the superiority of the green dragon is it's potential for regen, but that is fanto's idea, not mine(as she is, oh, i don't know, about 10X smarter than i am) but you don't mention that.

why would bile be better? i have had trouble getting dragons killed, so i would think the delayed effect would be negative, as it gives it's enemies time to inflict damage.

another thought on early expo/pretenders is that some pretenders have the ability to be a SC chasis while also producing freespawn, which, used correctly with a second commander, can become a separate expo group every two to three turns(if you are crafty). of course, the dragons don't have this.

so i think you really can't say any one of them is the 'best' for expo. and that is awesome, cus different ideas are what makes the games fun.

Re: About green dragon
 

I personally think in CBM, green dragon is the best amongst all three dragons, simply because the poison breath attack is aoe 10(aoe 3 for fire and cold breath) which is enough to hit all units before they get close to melee range. Not to metion the poison damage tick works really well with fear the dragons have.

It can expand on its own without any items except occasionally poison ressit troops(undead), with its mobility only a gorgon matches its early expansion capability.

Other dragons does aoe3 breath attack. in an average case you get 2-3 fires before are forced to fight in melee(assuming alone), aoe3 simply does not punch out enough damages.

Green dragon is "superior" to any other early-expanding awake pretender choices but whether or not it deserves a nerf I'm not really sure.

Re: About green dragon
 

The green dragon is intentionally physically more powerful than the red and blue dragons, since Water and Fire blesses are seen as more powerful and are harder to get from other chasses. The green dragon was previously rarely a good choice, so I've tried to give it a bit of a boost.

The delayed damage from the bile obviously makes it much weaker per unit AOE. With AOE 10 though, it is indeed quite powerful.

The dominion thing is a bug, I'll fix that in the next version.

Re: About green dragon
 

ahh. the vastly larger AOE is big. didn't know that. coupled with its regen, sounds like he truly could be nasty.

still think calling any one 'superior' or 'the best' is a stretch.

Re: About green dragon
 

It is not so much of a stretch really. I was thinking about making a post about the green dragon myself underlining why it is a fantastic choice for early game in competitive MP games. Here are some reasons:

The thing with the green dragon is really the dom2 it starts with. If you use a green dragon with nature-4 and dom9 (it really needs awe to being able to expand safely on turn 1), you get +80 points left when you start fiddling with your scales. The same setup with red/blue only gives you +24 points. That means you can take 2 better scales with the green dragon for "free".

The ability to fairly safely expand on turn 1 is huge, since you get a very strong second turn with more gold and more resources as well, which will mean a very strong expansion rate/new forts etc. you should however pick a forest to avoid running into knights just to be on the safe side. You can actually use slightly lower production scale since you will have access to bonus production from a neighbouring forest (which you would not normaly have).
(I ran 30+ test with this and even with indy-7 he never got killed expanding blindly, and the area 10 bile is great and synergies well with the fear/awe).

On top of this nature-4 (he will have nature 4 in human form, 2 in dragon) gives you access (using some forging) to high level nature and those early great globals like gift of health, mother oak, enchanted forest.

And as icing on the cake once he gets personal regen he gets very hard to kill, the ice/fire drake has nothing as good in early mid game.

It is true about the bless that fire and water are better however (though nature can be very useful on giants).

So as an awake SC for early expansion I have not found a better choice that is available to most nations.

The way to use green dragon in my opinion to take indies (for those that have problem using dragons) is to put him all the way to the back (like a corner) and script him to hold hold fire(closest). This will result in him using the bile when he can and attacking normaly once the indies close in on him.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: About green dragon
 

I wish i had read your post before my first try with a dragon.
Nice optimization of the green dragon play. Thx for the idea EH.

Re: About green dragon
 

Putting them back to dom1 will make it the way it was before- the dragons simply won't get used very much because they are so expensive.

Is it so bad the way it is? Maybe the red and blues should get base dom 2 also?

I'd rather see them all get a dominion bonus to 2 (they are dragons after all). I don't think this is unbalanced.

Maybe i am wrong.

Re: About green dragon
 

I do think that the other dragons are useful even today. Because despite what people here say, all the dragons can expand on turn 1 without awe. As long as you only expands towards type-less provinces that is. Dark vines will do you in no mater what kind of awe you got. This is not my musing. I have tested this in SP dozens of times and done it successfully in MP twice as well. In none of these tests the dragon died or was defeated.

As for the other dragons, the blue one is the weakest I think. Though it have AOE 5, not 3. The fire dragon is highly useful because he is one of few thing in the current CBM that can summon Zmeys cheaply and quickly. He only needs F4 if he can get the death/fire booster. F5 otherwise. Zmeys require F6 currently.

Re: About green dragon
 

The thing I miss about the dragons is that the Blue Dragon used to be aquatic. That was a useful feature at the time.

Re: About green dragon
 

yeah homer, these ideas are very helpful, especially for a guy like me that seems to kill dragons regularly.

when i said other pretenders might be considered better 'expanders' i just meant that those with free spawn might be able to build separate expo groups while expanding themselves, not that they were better solo-ing.

unfortunately, while i do think this is possible, i have yet to do it effectively...

Re: About green dragon
 

Sorry, don't follow. Am summoning my first Zmeys in CBM 1.92 and they require an F4 to cast. They're in Conjuration Level 6 to research if that's what you mean, but I don't think so, and I don't see any F5 anywhere... :confused:

Re: About green dragon
 

Jon-

it got to the point that everybody was summoning Zmeys, so in the most recent CBM, it was nerfed by being moved up to a F5 spell(and maybe made more expensive? i can't remmember)

Re: About green dragon
 

...Blimey, do you mean my CBM 1.92 is not latest version?? Doesn't it auto-update?

Re: About green dragon
 

LOL. does anything automatically update on Dominions?

no. i think we are up to 1.96 now.

there was also a patch not too long ago(i had to apply it to play MP, but im really not sure what it patched, to be honest)

Re: About green dragon
 

actually, i just checked it, and it is a F6 spell. don't want to spread misinformation...

Re: About green dragon
 

Thanks. Typical: my first play of CBM and summoning Zmeys, no wonder they were so attractive! Now I feel guilty for summoning them cheaply... Will upgrade to latest CBM for next game.

Re: About green dragon
 

cut yourself a break!! we all summoned em like mad. you deserve the 'discount zmey' too

Re: About green dragon
 

latest version is 1.94 iirc.

Re: About green dragon
 

On the subject of Zmeys...

In my (first, SP CBM 1.92) game summoning these, I've had mixed success: I've been using them as lone raiders to fly into AI territories, great when lightly defended (e.g. up to 30 defenders), but they lose if they land in an army.

Doubtless I could do with more scouting for adjacent provinces, but I get too impatient if I see a juicy temple one ... :) Am I not using my Zmeys optimally/sensibly?

Re: About green dragon
 

well jon, how are they losing? are they retreating after they lose a head?

i haven't used zmeys in awhile, what with their increased cost, along with some bad luck in game, but if i remmember, i think we almost always used a lycanthros amulet with them-the one that makes them beserk? then they wouldn't retreat. it made them a lot more effective. if you have the nature, throw a ring of regen on too. against the AI(who sucks against thugs, has no idea how to use S magic) that kit should be really really good.

Re: About green dragon
 

Zmey did not see a lot of use until somebody realized that the lycan ammu, and the +3 reinvig items (the 5 earth gem one) nicely avoided most of the general Zmey weaknesses. (Lycan gives regen and berserk, forcing the zmey to stay in the fight, and the reinvig made the zmey almost fatigue neutral).

And with this setup you got one spare misc slot for one more item.

Basically 10 gems of gear makes zmey a lot more dangerous. And it could easily best most pd up to 20. And in a lot of cases even more.

Eventually they turned up everywhere in MP.

Re: About green dragon
 

Re Zmeys: Haven't forged either lycans or regen/reinvig rings... My equip was Horror Helmet + Dancing Trident + Horned Helmet + Pendant of Luck...

@Soy
I had no problem when I landed in PD 20s... My problems would be when I landed smack in the midst of a modest army, like I said maybe I hadn't scouted enough and got too impatient! They would be surrounded and do well, but eventually overwhelmed. I plan to use a pair of them next!

Re: About green dragon
 

Try a lycan ammy and reinvig 3 belt. You will not be disappointed.

Re: About green dragon
 

yeah, but soy, he likes gearin' em heavy. let him mess around. when he starts playing multi, then you can teach him all you slick nasty soyweiser tricks...

Re: About green dragon
 

I didn't start gearing them that way. Don't know who did. But it revolutionized zmey production.

Edit: somebody should patent it.