I need to know if anyone has read anything at all on how pilots of Attack helicopters like Mi-24 and Apaches are trained to fire their auto cannon at ground targets

For example, are they trained to fire 1 second burst ? 2 second ? Half second ?

I'm looking for this very specific information only. I do not need quotes from Wiki or anywhere else on the ROF of the guns and speculation on what would probably be a typical burst of fire. I can, and already have, done that.

What I'm looking for is any information that points to pilots being trained to fire their auto cannons in a specific way as described

Thanks

Don

Re: Attack Helos
 

This might be half of what you want. From the UK MAIL newspaper online service that interviewed the pilots of the UK's first AH-1 attack mission in Rahim Kalay, Afghanistan in the summer of 2007. About half way down they speak of shooting 20 round bursts at their targets though twice they shot short bursts of warning shots, and at one mention a 10 round burst. But again when engaging the enemy it was all 20 round bursts. Otherwise I'll check Global Security to see if they have any USA FMs on the topic.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...g-Machine.html

Regards,
Pat

Re: Attack Helos
 

In VBS2, the training simulation, Apaches have 10, 20 or 30 rounds fire modes.

Re: Attack Helos
 

A 20 round burst from an Apache is a tiny bit less than 2 seconds of firing.

10, 20 or 30 rounds would be very close to 1, 2 and 3 seconds each.

This is very useful info. If anyone finds anything of a similar nature about the Mi-24p with the 30mm cannon that would be very helpful as well.

The problem is the Russian gun allows a Low and High ROF but the information I have so far indicates the low cycle rate is generally employed for ground targets and the high ROF for air-air but any further info in that regard anyone can dig up would be helpful because there is some variation on what the low ROF actually is. If pilots tend to fire 2 second bursts this affects ammo loads in the game and right now, for a lot of units the "that seems about right" method was applied and in some cases that decision was made with very sketchy info. Compared to even 5 years ago there is a lot more info on the 'net and we've been working on MBT for 13 years now ( hard to belive even for me......)

That said the ammo load for the existing Apaches is perfect as is for a 20 round / 2 second burst


Don

Re: Attack Helos
 

From video games like Team Apache/Janes/Microprose it seems like the Apache has multiple burst selections. The default is 10 rounds per burst but goes up to 100. Ten seems to work fine. I'm no pilot though. The current loadouts seem fine.

However considering most infantry need 250,000 bullets per kill the land grunts would realistically be leaving the battlefield several times and rearming during a typical scenario it's also plausible to buff up helos the same.

Re: Attack Helos
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2O408jhyk

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthrea...-pilots-inside

You can find some Mi-28 live fire videos on YouTube. I'd guess they fire 10-30 rounds per burst although the pilot doesn't seem to be consistent.

Re: Attack Helos
 

Alright by way of one of the cannons carried on the Mi-24, specifically the Mi-24P with the turreted twin barreled GSh-30K it has an ROF of 300 Rounds Short/2400-2600 (Many say 2450.) Rounds Long selector. It carries on board 750 rounds of 30mm DU ammo. This I believe you have as well already or something close to it. I've searched the NET the info you wanted based on a specific weapon type, pilot/gunner gunnery training etc. with no luck. So I've emailed Dr. Stephen Peterson my LSK/LV Mig-29 Pilot and current Lt.Col Luftwaffe Reserve EUROFIGHTER Pilot. He's the one that let me post his Mig-29/23 DDR pics in the Jet/Planes Thread. Anyway sorry it's late and I'm tired...hoping he can get in touch with some of the HIND pilots he knew to hopefully get you the answers you need. On their Wehrmacht.com website East German LSK/LV he posted some of the best HIND in air shots I've seen. GOOD NIGHT!!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: Attack Helos
 

Being a disabled vet I have some spare time on my hands. I first tried the Army aerial gunnery manuals and came up with nothing. I then looked into gunnery tables and qualifications and came up with nothing. I then went wider and tried every different FM I could find and came up with nothing. I do know some Apache pilots and gunners but I can't stand talking to them so that was out of the question. I finally went to YouTube. A search of "AH-64 gun camera footage" gets a lot of results. On a lot of these videos the HUD is visible. If the Apache is engaging targets with the 30mm, the HUD will display weapon status and rounds remaining. I watch so many gun camera videos that I now see everything in FLIR mode. HaHa. 9 times out of 10 the rounds fired was right around 20 rounds at dismounted infantry. The sound is distorted but the average burst seemed to be right around 2 seconds. The engagements were just a series of 2 round burst on the target until it was no longer a target. Any target that was more solid than a human was normally engaged with FFARs or Hellfires so I could not get a round count for the 30mm on those. I'll paste the link to the best YouTube video I could find. I'm sure everyone is smart enough to see the round count. I don't know if this helps but I thought I'd try to help. I did not look at Russian gun camera footage to tell you about them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvrJzkzaG7E
Below is the name of the video on YouTube if the link does not work:

Afghanistan - Absolutely typical apache attack with Hellfire and 30mm Gun

Re: Attack Helos
 

Here's an excellent example of the type of info I'm looking for and I found this by accident. The only thing better would be a pilots report

It refers to the 30mm AC on the Ka-50

If 10 round bursts are assumed that gives the helicopter 23 he and 24 AP/Sabot "bursts" of fire...... if 20 round are assumed --and given these are similar ROF's to the Apache AC and that may be more typical use than 10 rounds we are looking at 11 HE and 12 AP/Sabot or just split the difference and go with 12/12.

20 rounds fired or two second bursts seems to be a recurring theme with the 30mm AC's

Re: Attack Helos
 

Haven't checked my email to see if I got a response, however maybe the weapons table from the below ref will be of some help after all. Will try to find what the typical ammo load is for these three main guns shown for the newer Mi-24 models shown.
Half split or 2 to 1 ammo split on HE vs AP might yield some rough ref numbers. See what I can do without cutting into the deadline, that work starts tonight after work or tomorrow before work. It's almost like being Santa for some of these OOBs.
http://www.enemyforces.net/helicopters/mi24.htm

Regards,
Pat

Re: Attack Helos
 

I have got to admit I have learned a lot about helicopters in the past few days. DRG mentioned the KA-50 so I started a new search based on the heliopter. Did you know the the 30mm on the KA-50 is the same one thats on the BMP-2? Did you know that the primary model is a single-seater? I can't think of another single-seat attack helicopter. Did you know it has a real not kidding or making Russian Army jokes ejection seat? The main rotors are blown off and then the pilot is ejected by a rocket motor under his seat. The pilot also has the option of rolling out of his door to eject. They say you learn something new everyday. I found an awesome article that goes into great detail about the entire helicopter. The link is: http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/ka-50.php

I'll copy and paste the important info below:

ARMAMENT: Four BD3-UV pylons on wings. Up to 80 S-8 80mm air-to-surface rockets in four underwing B8V20A packs or 20 S-13 122mm rockets in four B-13L pods; or up to 12 9A4172 Vikhr-M (AT-12) tube-launched laser-guided ASMs with range of 8 to 10km capable of penetrating 900mm of reactive armour; or mix of both; Vikhr launched from trainable UPP-800 mounts, which can be depressed to -12°; single-barrel 30mm 2A42 gun on starboard side of fuselage, with up to 470 armour-piercing or high-explosive fragmentation rounds, can be depressed from +3° 30' to -37° in elevation and traversed from -2° 30' to +9° in azimuth hydraulically and is kept on target in azimuth by tracker which turns helicopter on its axis; two ammunition boxes in centre-fuselage. Front box contains 240 AP rounds, rear box 230 HE rounds. Selectable rapid (550 to 600 rds/min) or slow (350 rds/min) fire, with bursts of 10 or 20 rounds. Provision for alternative weapons, including UPK-23-250 23mm gun pods, Igla or R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') AAMs. Kh-25MP (AS-12 'Kegler') ARMs, FAB-500 bombs or dispenser weapons.

Now that I read it again I notice it says the same thing DRG posted but he used a lot fewer words. The article is worth reading just for the ejection seat.

ferg

Re: Attack Helos
 

I think that's the same link DRG found. Good info though.

Re: Attack Helos
 

Just an update...
Steve of the LUFTWAFFE just left me an email and unfortunately he has lost contact with the Army Mi-24D/P pilots of the DDR and BUNDESWEHR he knew. As we know (Now.) and for the newer folks here now, it was the BUNDESWEHR that would ultimatley fly the Mi-24P HINDS acquired after reunification. The program was killed for maintenance reasons of cost and lack of spares. The Mi-24P was phased out by 1991 and soon sold off to I BELIEVE Hungry. It never got past the evaluation stage in Germany. Sorry...

Regards,
Pat

Re: Attack Helos
 

Oh well, was worth a try.

You can always ask training centers if they have any experienced Mi 24 pilots.

http://www.558arp.by/training-of-center-eng.html

http://www.flightcollege.com.ua/concord.htm

Re: Attack Helos
 

Don,
This is interesting (I hope.), I just checked my email and posted it below. This is from "Steve" from the WEHMARCHT.com site. As you might remember he let me post his pictures in the JETS Thread and was a former LSV/LK MiG-29 and current Lt Col. in the LUFFWAFFEN and EUROFIGHTER pilot. My HELO Patch Post work for the DDR was based on his and Gordon inputs as well as my refs. HUMIT is always good if the source is I think we can agree this is the case here. You'll see when I asked for his input as well. I guess he likes a good challenge as well. I hope this will be useful to you and others in dealing with the Mi-24D/P (As there are distinations between them in what was asked for here.) Helos and any others that might share the same Auto Cannons.
Email addys have been deleted.

From: Dr. Stefan Petersen (stefan-petersen@.de) This sender is in your contact list.
Sent: Sun 3/10/13 8:13 PM
To: patrick conklin (patrickjconklin@)

Hi Pat,

how are You?

I managed to find a ground crew member which worked on the Mi-24 and he told me, that in the Mi-24D there was no selector switch. The manual recommended four to five bursts with 20 to 25 rounds each per attack. In the Mi24P there was a selector for the 30mm cannon but that could only be switched to high or low rate.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes,
Steve



From: Dr. Stefan Petersen
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:06 AM
To: patrickjconklin@
Subject: Re: HIND Pilots

Hi Pat,

I am fine, thank You, hope You are, too.

Unfortunately, I have no contact to any former HIND crew members and I also do not know anyone who has. I flew once in a HIND in 1991 but lost contact shortly thereafter when all the HINDs were phased out of the Bundeswehr. And as they were under control of the Army, I have also no connections to refresh ... it was the first and last time for me as an Air Force member to fly with the Army.

Sorry that I can’t help in this case.

Best wishes,
Steve


From: patrick conklin
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 9:31 AM
To: Stefan Petersen Dr.
Subject: HIND Pilots
Stefan,
I hope this finds you well!?! And I suppose your vacation has just ended or soon will be, coming back to reality can really...well...suck for a lack of a better term at this hour! Going to Savannah Ga. for an over night trip we can use the break, January has been tough. I'll fill you in next time but I'm glad it's winding down! But here's my request do you know still (Or someone who does.) any of the HIND Pilots? The reason for the request is to find out whether the machine guns/or cannons have a selector switch that allows for example a 10 round 1 second burst etc. or was it pilot gunnery training with what standards or a combination/or option to use ethier method. We have found the information out for the APACHE which basically is a 10 round 1 second burst, 20 Round 2 second burst and a 30 round 3 second burst. I'm sure the Pilots were trained to the Soviet standard of the time. We're good on the ROF for say the GSh-30k 2 barreled turreted 30mm carried on the Mi-24P at 300 rounds slow and 2400-2600 rounds fast. with a combat load out of 750 rounds stored. Any help again appreciated. Gave Gordon and you a "shout out" on my Patch Post Helo equipment list. If any Pilot or Gunner want to contact me directly they can at your discretion. Take Care of yourself and have a great weekend

Regards'
Pat

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Attack Helos
 

Thanks Pat. That more or less fits with the adjustments we made. Most of it's "educated guessing " anyway

Don

Re: Attack Helos
 

On the subject of Attack Helos I stumbled across this recently.

Re: Attack Helos
 

Was just checking another stupid video on you tube (at least the tittle is stupid).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wp8_AeH6hE
for the Tiger
counted 10 burst for 100 rounds (the ammo nb is at the bottom of the HUD)