winter movement
 

Is it possible to change the movement cost for winter? Right now it doesn`t really slow down vehicles, my 4WD`s still move 8-10 hexes on clear terrain. But in Russia for example in winter movement almost came to a stand still except for all-tracked vehicles and fighting was for streets and villages.
So having to use streets for movement or to be stucked in the snow fields would add much more depth, I think.
Also trees in general. To my mind, vehicles can cross them quite fast, tanks can move 3-4 hexes in them, that`s as fast as infantry; 4WD can move 4-5 hexes.

Re: winter movement
 

WHICH "my 4WD`s still move 8-10 hexes " ???

WHICH Nation ?? Unit ??

When I test a light truck with AWD that normally has a speed of 20 it gets 6 hexes in "clear" snow and THREE in deep snow so you need to be far more specific than you are now as to what nation and what units you see zipping around in the snow



Don

Re: winter movement
 

Right now, movement cost for clear snow is 3 for tracked vehicles and 4WD. So every car that has a speed more of 24 can move 8 hexes, speed of 27 is 9 hexes and so on. (the german SdKfz 222 and Kfz 15 are moving 9 hexes in clear snow for example, which is much too much to my mind).
I just started a winter scenario with the german side in the editor, bought some vehicles (SdKfz 222, Kfz 15, SdKfz 7, 10, SdKfz 251 and 250) and all of them can move at least 6 hexes in clear snow (Opel Blitz can move 4 hexes).
I`m absolutely fine with movement cost for deep snow. I just wanted to know if it`s possible to increase movement cost for clear snow so tracked and 4WD vehicles can move maybe 3-5 hexes there instead of the 6-9 they do right now.

Mario

Re: winter movement
 

Clear terrain snow is bad enough just now, trying to slog across it with infantry etc at +1 per hex.

Now, if we made it +2 a hex, then winter battles would never get anywhere, especially assaults/attacks.

Just think of clear snow terrain as being a dusting of the stuff an inch or so perhaps - not 4-5 inches of it. That is the snowdrifts type terrain 9with its attendant sticking risks).


Cheers
Andy

Re: winter movement
 

Well, thanks for the answer, I can see that. But maybe it would be quite interesting, that "winter battles would never get anywhere, especially assaults/attacks", except when you use the roads. There would be a lot more draws, or you have to use ski-troops and all-tracked vehicles for assaults.
Two more questions: What do you think about increasing movement cost for trees (summer / winter) for vehicles? Right now it`s 4 for tracked vehicles, so tanks can normally move there 3-4 hexes (infantry can move only 2 hexes) and halftracks 4-5. But to my mind vehicles in any case have to be not faster in trees than infantry.
Second question: Is there a possibility to make an editor for movement cost? As I understood from your reply it`s possible to change it. Or maybe there is an easy way to change it (by hex-editor) so I can do it by myself?

Best regards

Mario

Re: winter movement
 

If you want situations like the severe winters that occured at the start of the invasion of Russia or in Finland try making a map with lots of deep snow (snowdrifts). That will slow the vehicles down & likely cause a few breakdowns to.

Re: winter movement
 

I am already experimenting with a +2 for all vehicles in trees

Andy

Re: winter movement
 

Perspectives may vary, but to me 4-5 inches of snow sounds still like relatively light coverage - though certainly enough to slow down movement.

Then again, that might have to do something with the fact that there is currently around 20 inches worth of snow outside my house - certainly enough to make movement very difficult on areas that have not been cleared of snow. And on areas that have been cleared of snow, there are likely to be walls of snow on the sides of the road, where the snow has been ploughed - making it more difficult to move from the ploughed road to the areas of fresh snow.

Re: winter movement
 

At the moment trees are slower than fields but not as slow as rough. So we have a map feature with 'medium difficulty'...if you like.

Adding +2 to trees would make them similar to rough and they'd mostly be avoided by vehicles. We'd no longer have a common 'medium difficulty' map feature.

I see the current trees as sparse woods. Map makers can add rough to woods to make them vehicle unfriendly.

How about another trees type like 'dense trees'?
Or 'sparse trees', so we still have trees that can be navigated by vehicles.

Would the +2 also count for orchards?

Just some thoughts :)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28868437/Fo...ement.cost.png


I really like the current winter movement. I find movement really slows down, and roads become important. If movement was any slower battles would stagnate.

I agree with Imp that you should add loads of snow drifts if you want a heavy snow map where movement is even harder.

Don't forget that movement often got easier in many situations where the ground was frozen. The mud of a thaw often caused more problems than snow.

regards,
Cross

Re: winter movement
 

Going off topic a bit but as it seems like Andy is dabling with the map & movement at the moment trees are in my view the thing that could do with updating.
Orchards are obviosly sparse trees or large bush type plants so a minor hinderance.fine as they are.

For woods / jungle a possible other ways to do it.
Two types of wood
Normal wood/jungle & dense wood/jungle
Most woods completly surrounded by other woods would be dense the rest normal.
They could offer diffrent levels of cover, move rates & possibly heights
Dense woods should also be breakdown hexes at a higher level than rough, Say tracked could move 2 hexes at minor risk 3 is gambling.

Vehicles now skirt large areas of woods & can still dash across open to the woods edge though they standard woods could also have a low breakdown chance if wish, say at risk if moving over 6 hexes.

This will still let vehicles take advantage of clearings & race across 1 or 2 clear hexes.

Modifying the map generator though would be major work so perhaps for map makers only & I am not sure how the AI would deal with it either.

You could make trails to buy putting a line of standard trees through the dense trees, ideal for ambush possibly

At the moment you can combine rough & impassable terrain with trees to slow or prevent vehicles but this gives infantry high levels of cover & the AI does not handle impassable terrain to well.

Get rid of a paved road type if need a spare button the only diffrence I can see between them is cosmetic, or give it over to brush which would have similar properties to high grass possibly offering slightly better concealment.

Re: winter movement
 

There wont be any new terrain types - we are at the limit already.

Orchards are simply less dense trees for height and for seeing through.

Cheers
Andy

Re: winter movement
 

Cross, what do you mean with 'medium difficulty' map feature?
And yes, to my mind trees should mostly be avoided by vehicles, a lot of other games like combat mission handle it the same way. You should be able to cross them with vehicles, albeit slowly and I really like the idea to make them even breakdown-hexes like rough.

Mario

Re: winter movement
 

If you look at movement costs for various map features, approximately:

Road, clear and field could be termed 'easy' to traverse.

Trees are about 'medium' cost.

Rough, mud and swamp are 'difficult', and you really have to avoid these with vehicles apart from exceptional circumstances.

If Trees become similar to Rough, then we've lost the only 'medium difficulty' map feature. Map features would mostly be easy or difficult.

Even orchards would be avoided by vehicles, because orchards have the same movement cost as trees. IRL, orchards were often used to park-up in because they provided cover but were easily accessible for vehicles.

That said, I do think forests are too easy for vehicles currently. But I think vehicles should be able to pull into the first layer of trees, or through a tree a line, with relative ease.

If 'sparse trees' aren't an option then I don't know what the best answer is...

cheers,
Cross

Re: winter movement
 

As terrain types are at their limit, I wonder if it would be possible to change either orchards or hedges to a more universal terrain type. The goal to have both 'dense trees' and 'sparse trees' terrain.

I have no idea what code is tangled up with orchards or hedges, but if it's possible...

If hedges could be changed:
Change trees icon to sparse trees icon.
Change hedges icon to dense trees icon.
Make hedge movement penalty +2 over current trees (sparse trees).
This means that the only existing maps affected would be Normandy, where hedges will look a little different and would be easier to cross than in the past, but still harder than regular trees (now sparse trees).
Orchards would keep the same movement, which would be the same as sparse trees.
Future maps could use dense trees and sparse trees.


If orchards could be changed:
Change orchards label to 'sparse trees'.
Leave orchard movement alone.
Give trees +2 movement over current trees movement.
Add additional orchard icons showing sparse trees, so map designers could cycle through sparse trees using random icons for sparse trees, but choosing centred 'orchard' icon for a more planted orchard look.
Existing maps wouldn't be affected.
Orchards/sparse trees would now be easier to move through than trees.


Just some thoughts on the off-chance the code wasn't too tangled.


Cross

Re: winter movement
 

In next release scenario designers with the CD edition will be able to edit terrain density ( and obstacle height ) and that includes trees so it will be possible to edit a map so that there could be less dense or more dense stand of trees. It will all be explained in the game guide. I have no intention of removing orchards.

Don

Re: winter movement
 

Sounds like a great solution.

I'll look forward to trying it out.

Cross

Re: winter movement
 

This next update is looking rather intresting, some tactics might just go out the window with the latest offerings. I am also looking forward to having a play with the map editor & seeing what some people come up with.

Got to love the dedication to this game & the constant tweaks sometimes in a totaly unexpected direction by Don & Andy.
This quite possibly has to be the best supported game on the planet.

Re: winter movement
 

.......more than you could guess. All will be revealed just before release



Don

Re: winter movement
 

Don, will this also pertain to the random map generator in the long campaigns or only to the map editor for scenarios? It would be perfect if it would affect campaign-play as well.

Mario

Re: winter movement
 

Maybe it`s possible to connect it with the tree level in the random map generator. The higher the number the higher the tree density.

Re: winter movement
 

It has NOTHING to do with the random map generator nor will it ever be.

It's a map makers tool to allow individual hex tweaking.

Don

Re: winter movement
 

Yes. So what is the justification for such restrictions on mobility during winter? One might think a clear or lightly snowed hex wouldn't affect tracked or foot movement at all, only moderate snow to snowdrifts. Same for a road, unless it's icy. Or am I missing something? Thanks.

Re: winter movement
 

Try the autumn or spring maps where there are white hexes that act like regular clear terrain (2 MP to cross). So those just have a dusting of the white stuff.

The original SSI snow map was all hexes are snow so all hexes are +1 bar snowdrifts. Now you only get those in deep winter, where snow is assumed to be signifigantly deep.

Re: winter movement
 

Hello I would like to offer an enthusiastic congratulation for Cross and Imps ideas about vehicle unfriendly Forest/Tree hexs. I think it should go a step further and there should be an impassable treed hex type. The problem in the game that this solves is that tanks, trucks and motorcycles can hunt down infantry anywhere on the map whereas in fact forests provide a safe place for infantry to hide from such.

There is actually plenty of Forest that even tracked vehicles cannot move through.

In Asia there are jungles. The trees are enormous and throw out a set of buttress roots every bit as big as their canopies forming radiating interlocking 1 to 5 foot walls all over the place there is often a sub-story of smaller trees, so still more trunks about and then the actual profuse undergrowth at the ground level.

In Europe most forests existed because they were on unfarmable land, damp, rocky, steep or rough. In valleys just the slope itself can be too steep for vehicles let alone the added roughness of the going, trees and boulders. An entire valley can easily be too steep everywhere for vehicles. Though the game doesn't have slopes too steep for vehicles, impassable treed hexs would effectively be the same thing.

The problem is not just the tree trunks and roots running about. The ground they grow on is usually extremely irregular, supplying innumerable opportunities for vehicles to hang. Trees only grow where there is enough rain, wherever there is enough rain it always forms the ground into a series of small watercourses all these small steep slopes in combination with trees and boulders makes it impossible to get any sort of vehicle through.

Where the ground is permanently damp there is rarely trees but often dense 8 to 15 ft thickets of shrubs or brush that can be impenetrable even to Infantry.

Russia still contained vast tracts of virgin forest, tractless and unknown. These may have had flattish ground but would be full of fallen lumber.

The British who did some sterling statistical work on NW europe during the war, found that in general about 10 percent of that theatre was good tank country. They probably set a very high bar but in the game a good 90 percent of the scenery is tank friendly. Impassable treed hexes would bring the game closer to this British finding. The change would promote the use of all arms teams rather than charging around in tanks.
Cross makes a good point that for large patches the outermost edge should be about 1 or two hexes deep of vehicle friendly forest hex, but I think not religiously, Impenetrable tree hex can easily border clear/road hexes.