artillery delay for small mortars
 

What do you think about decreasing artillery delay for small mortars (up to 60mm)? Right now, depending on experience it`s 3.4 to 1.2 (for 80 or more experience). But it means that even the British or Americans have usually to wait 3 turns which makes small mortars quite useless. Why not change that to 1.5 for unexperienced and 0.5 for better crews (and FO`s) since they could set up and shoot very quickly.

Mario

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

Rather than mess with the 'indirect fire' mechanism, I would make the 'direct fire' option more attractive. From what I have read, the most usual FO for these mortars was the mortar's own squad leader, from a vantage point within 100m, using hand signals.

What if the light mortar had a Line of Sight calculated from the hex immediately in front of it?

This could allow the mortar itself to stay in cover yet still 'see' its target. Obviously, this hex would be fixed for the entire move, based on its direction at the start of the turn (i.e. no such benefit if rotated), since there weren't enough spare crewmen to place one in each of the adjacent six hexes. For simplicity, the spotter of course would never ever be spotted!

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

If you have the mortar in a suitable position for that you most likely have it in a position where it can z fire on the target hex or one near to it. So Z fire & then walk it on using the bombard screen with minimal delay.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

Yikes! I would never have made this association between Z-fire and the bombard screen. I like it!

It's like the 'spotter' already exists, wherever and whenever he is needed - just not very good at his job, z-fire and unobserved indirect fire being what it is, accuracy-wise.

Two limitations:

a) when there isn't a suitable 'start-point' for z-fire walking;


b) accuracy - a direct fire option allows single round accurate fire whereas the follow-up to the z-fire barrage would be unobserved mandatory multi-shot - perfect for artillery and mortar platoon fires for effect, but single light mortars attached to rifle platoons ... not so much?

This game never ceases to amaze!

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

New to me too, what else do you have in your bag of tricks John?

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

[quote=Imp;818011]I've always thought once you've direct fire any arty they don't show up on the bombard screen for that turn.
To be honest, don't recall using many z-fired arty,don't know why it should be any different than DF.
Plotting takes calculations and time,so how should using erratic z-fire take less delay on next bombard?
If this really does work as described,then i'm really missing something.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

Yep,
I agree small mortars (60 mm and under) should be able to move and shoot which they are limted.
That's what they are meant for DF:)
Japanese inftry small mortars for example.
IMO small mortars bombard should only be called from the company leader they are from,but that's another can of worms.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

Because it lets you skip the calculations - the gun is already laid correctly.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

There are a lot of small mortars that can move & shoot, they are carried by squads & are great for supporting fire vs clustered troops. If they have decent range also handy vs MGs ATGs & ATGMs to help suppress.
Crewed small mortars are just like any other mortar but much more likely to have a LOS to the target hex due to closer proximity & the Z fire trick can assume they are better aware of the company needs & hence can lay down fire quicker in the general area.
If the situation permits I bring up SP mortars on the odd occasion so they have eyeballs on the target.
If you need cover fast a small mortar & hence high ROF with LOS can place quite a smoke screen on the turn after its moved by direct firing.
More control we do not need.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

In the early fifties, the USA changed their field manuals (and thus official doctrine) to reflect the 'reality' that their 60-mm mortars were normally attached one to a platoon, and as I mentioned before the mortar sguad leader was usually the one direcing its fire. Later, the light mortar role was taken over by the M79 and M203 type grenade launchers. These grenade launchers were basically designed to bridge the gap between hand grenades and real(?) mortars.

IMHO, the current game does not with sufficient accuracy allow the light mortar to basically lob explosives into that little hollow 150m to the left that the machine guns can't reach.

To my mind, this cries out for light mortars to have some unique characteristic(s). So, how about:
1. Redefine light mortars as 'direct fire', so that scads of them are not firing all over the map or cluttering up the bombard screen;
2. Tweak their LOS calcs somehow, to 'see' through protective terrain immediately in front of them;
3. Tweak their Target calcs somehow, to allow direct fire or more dependable z-fire on eligible hexes currently off limits to direct fire weapons;
4. Permit some fire and movement in the same turn.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

RE Imp}There are a lot of small mortars that can move & shoot, they are carried by squads & are great for supporting fire vs clustered troops.

Aha! thats the glitch i'm talking about.
Why should be infranty units carrying the same mortars be able to move and shoot?
Then you have the same caliber mortar squads that have a MP penalty when they fire.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

Okay are we playing the same game here?
Squaud carried mortars are "quick fired" so cant use the bombardment screen or in game lob smoke & generaly have a low ammo load.

Some of those mortars are small designed to be fired near enough from the hip if you like but some regular small mortars can also be bought either this way or as crewed weapons.
German WW2 for instance intigral or seperate its your choice or in MBT Canadians 80s on D/W Company.
The squad version carries the penalties listed above trading it for speed generally.

My pref is to buy the D/W company & then trade one platoon for intigrated mortars so I have both.

Crewed small mortars can move & fire no problem what they cant do is take time to plot fire while moving.
They can do virtualy everything thats been requested & given your Gods eye view are very powerfull as they can react very quickly to what you want them to do.

You can fire & move if you dont want to plot fire
You can Z fire a sighting round & then walk the fire using the bombardment screen to the hex you cant normally see.

The gods eye view is exactly why you should not have even more control over them, they react fast enough anyway. Especially if you take the risk to expose them to direct LOS or the time to set them up in good spots for z firing simulating the guy forward.
A turn or 2 waiting for your support units to get in place before attacking is normally a good trade.

They fell out of favour but seem to be making a comeback because they are so flexible, they also happen to be one of the best surpressive weapons in the game due to the high ROF & dont tend to kill your troops due to low kill so can be used here other supporting weapons cant.

I for one think they are a great little weapon due to the fact they react fast, can hit hexes other units cant, cause heavy suppression & can be risked in close proximity to your own troops.
Then theres the get out of battle free card when it all goes wrong & they lay a smoke screen to gain time.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

The original light mortars of WW1 were designed to throw an explosive from one concealed position (your trench) into another position that could not be reached by the direct fire weapons of the time (their trench), spotted by a guy nearby quite possibly using a home-made cardboard periscope to peek over the parapet - no radios, no FDCs ....

The only current mechanism to portray this in WinSP seems to be the z-fire walk into out-of-LOS locations - which is fine for harrassing and interdiction firing by arty and mortar batteries "based on latest intel from HQ", but arguably iffy for danger-close or routine light mortar fire.

In addition, I have seen no indications that z-fire or indirect fire (observed or otherwise?) are programmed to become more effective, either as to hitting aim point or dispersion, with each successive 'adjustment'.

If intended, then perhaps:

(a) permit all mortars and on-map arty to z-fire anywhere within range, skipping the walk altogether;

(b) restrict (a) to light mortar class(es), but tighten up the z-fire and subsequent indirect fire dispersion, due to the closer ranges and quicker feed-back.

If not intended, then perhaps:

(c) disallow or limit adjustments into non-LOS hexes, in effect deeming it an unacceptable gamey tactic;

(d) explore other alternatives for this particular weapon / unit / intended effect;

(e) explore broader-based methodologies and features that produce, as a partial result, a new treatment for the light mortar.

In any event, an enjoyable discussion. My thanks to the original poster.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

I followed the discussion with great interest and have some remarks.
Of course integrated mortars (infantry carrying it in weapon slot 2-4) can shoot quickly as Imp has stated but they don`t have the indirect fire option, so they are restricted to their LOS. Mortar crews can use the z-key and then bombard the marked hex in the next turn (with 0.1 delay) but actually this is some kind of cheat which is only available to the human player, the AI don`t know it.
Everthing that Pfor had suggested sounds very interesting but also difficult to realize. It very much sounds like changing the game code quite a bit.
So what about my initial idea of decreasing artillery delay, (only for small mortars) to 1 turn? If you want you can shoot directly anyway if you have LOS. If not, you have to wait 1 turn. And the AI can respond to events as fast as the human player can.

Mario

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

Well try doing it yourself if thats what your preference is.

For plotted fire both the caller & the unit firing have an effect on the lead time so try fiddling to get what you want.

I think experience is the main criteria for call times possibly linked to a degree to arty skill so open up the editor & adjust some mrtars till you get the effect you want then go to the OOB editor & make yourself a custom OOB with those adjustments.

I would suggest starting by increasing the mortar experience by 10-15 points & seeing what happens.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

For scenarios you are right. But I`m speaking of campaign-play.
I just had a look at the Americans, who in May 44 have a base experience of 65. I bought some 60mm mortars and even a Ranger FO (+10 experience). Artillery delay is between 2.3 and 3.3. So bombardment starts between turn 4 and 5. One turn is supposed to represent some minutes, isn`t it? So what, they are reading the manual in between?
I mean, maybe I`m wrong, I never served in an army nor ever shot a mortar but I still think that delay should be not more than 1.2 even for the worst team and maybe 0.4 for experienced crews (more than 70 base experience).

Mario

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

Firstly 0.4 would be blindingly quick for that time cause you can call in fire anywhere virtualy instantly.
So using the z fire sighting rounds & plotting fire for effect would be in my opinion far more realistic.

As I said test in the editor then make a custom OOB with adjusted mortars, not sure if it can still be embeded might have to do the mortar as an individual section.

For a campaign anyway if you keep them alive they will soon become better, if they start at 1.2 wont be long before they are doing 0.4

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

In WAW small mortar teams part of a platoon would have a delay of 1.n when the fire was called in by the platoon leader but longer if called in by anyone else including an FO. The .n would vary due to experience, etc. This seemed to work very well and seems to meet the points raised in the discussion.

Re: artillery delay for small mortars
 

I raised base experience and art. command of both the mortar crew and the FO to 160 each and a 1.2 delay was the best I could get.
And as I said, playing with the Americans (base exp. 65) delay is 3.3, sometime 2.3 and gets down to 1.2 when they have approximately 80+ experience. To my mind less experience should affect accuracy but not so much the time they need to shot.
The z-fire discussion is four years old, isn`t it? Here`s the link: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44305

Of course z-fire can be used and for the human player it`s fine. But as stated in the old discussion it`s some kind of cheat, not known to the AI, I guess. When I play vs the AI I simply can overrun his mortars, cause they need so much time to shoot that everything is already over when they finally are ready (and the AI will never gain more experience, he is restricted to the base experience of the country and date).
And yes, in WAW delay for small mortars is less as Warmonger mentioned.

Mario