SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

No, wait, before you flame.

I'm serious.

It uses UDP/IP.

This is *not* the same thing. In particular, pretty much every firewall on the planet can handle NATed connections using TCP/IP.

Pretty much none of them can handle UDP without special configuration. Usually not even then.

Using UDP only makes sense when speed is of the essence, and even then is a pretty bad idea.

I was unable to play with a friend of mine until he completely removed his firewall (a low-end linksys router), even though he had told it to forward all incoming traffic to his machine (it wouldn't let UDP out).

So, as TCP/IP play is really important to me (I don't have e-mail accounts on the machines I play SEIV from; I using linux for e-mail), I would really like to know why the SEIV Gold demo doesn't have it, and when this is likely to be fixed.

Thank you.

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

That is something to send to Malfador directly.
(Send to: info@malfador.com)

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Will do, thanks.

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

While I do agree that it would be nice if it were easier/possible to play through a firewall, our experience with testing it on the beta team showed that speed was very much an issue.

With several players (I think we had as many as five in one game), if any players are on dialups it can take a long time to get the files to eveyone. Especially if the host is on a dialup modem

This is an area I have very little expertise in, but if changing it to make it more accesable through firewalls is going to slow it down even more, ugh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Geoschmo

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Actually, UDP is *worse* for transfer of anything larger than the size of a single packet (generally <1KB).

Substantially worse, actually. If SEIV Gold is using UDP for the actual turn transfers (which I didn't test), it would probably get rather a lot faster with TCP/IP. *Especially* over dialup.

The only advantages to UDP are that individual packets get there faster (at the cost of losing many of them) and it's easier to program.

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Well, if that's the case, by all means please suggest it to Aaron. Anything that would speed it up I am all for.

Geoschmo

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

To be a lot more specific, here's an IRC chat with people who know more about networking than I can even begin to describe (I work at a company that has some people that are truly frighteningly good with networking):

- -------------

<me> General technical question: is UDP still going to be faster than TCP when

<me> you're using it to send like large files and such?

<speaker1> what does it mean that UDP is faster than TCP?

<speaker1> define "faster"

<me> Uhhh, I'm transfering a 100K of data from machine a to machine b.

<me> Faster is defined as it would be in a dictionary.

<me> 'Takes less time'.

<speaker1> your data won't get tehre if you use UDP

<speaker1> and it will if you use TCP

<speaker1> so I guess infinity is kinda slow

<speaker1> unless you implement guaranteed delivery on top of UDP

<me> Assuming that the UDP-based mechanism ... yeah, that.

<speaker1> in which case you may as well use TCP and take a couple extra round trips for the connection setup

<speaker2> then you're just reimpling tcp

<me> Cool, thanks.

<speaker4> If you need the entire file then use TCP

<speaker4> If you can afford to loose chunks but you want to get the data you do get sooner then use UDP

<speaker2> or if you don't need the data to be in sequence

<speaker2> but you need all of it

* speaker3 has flashbacks to shouting this argument at Dreamcast game developers

<speaker1> well, you still won't get all of it without guaranteed delivery

<speaker2> right, but you can build guaranteed delivery without sequencing very easily

<me> Yes, I am trying to explain to people on a game forum that if you have 5 people connected to a game where it occasionally transfers large amounts of data (relative to packet size), with no data
transfer between those (it's turn based), it will *not*
slow down when you move to TCP.

<me> Especially when several players are on modems.

<speaker1> uh, of course not

<speaker1> it'll just take a half second longer to start up the connection

- ------------

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Furthermore:

- -----------

<speaker3> as a matter of fact when dealing with modems you are likely to see an improvement in performance when moving to TCP

<speaker2> why's that?

<speaker2> you talking about header compression?

<speaker3> yes, and the fact that some dailup servers will drop udp sooner than tcp packets because the tcp ones will just get
+retransmitted

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

I have a firewall that should be able to work with UDP. It has setting that has to be used during Online gaming that allows UDP and TCP. Although I haven't ever tried it with any UDP game. All games I can think of use TCP.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Heh. I love geekspeak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Suggestion, cut/paste that convo into your email to Malfador. It's greek to me mostly, but it might mean something to them.

But try and be polite. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geo

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Zarix: note further that some of us can't alter the firewalls that we're behind. Work firewalls, obviously, but I wouldn't be surprised if AT&T cable internet blocked this stuff (they block so much other stuff).

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
While I do agree that it would be nice if it were easier/possible to play through a firewall, our experience with testing it on the beta team showed that speed was very much an issue.

With several players (I think we had as many as five in one game), if any players are on dialups it can take a long time to get the files to eveyone. Especially if the host is on a dialup modem

This is an area I have very little expertise in, but if changing it to make it more accesable through firewalls is going to slow it down even more, ugh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>

Speed of the server is certainly an issue. The problem seems to be that it sends ONE file at a time, regardless of its available bandwidth. If it were smart enough to simultaneously send to all players at once and 'rotate' among the connections checking if it's time to send some more of the file it could have much better performance. I don't know the details of TCP vs. UDP so I can't say if his use of UDP is a limiting factor that forces him to do this 'one player file sent at at time' thing. If someone can show him code demonstrating how to do that in either UDP or TCP I think it would be a big help.

And honestly, isn't it just plain stupid to be a HOST on dialup? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Only clients should use dialup. The host should be on DSL/cable or some other broadband.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by robinleepowell:
[QB]Zarix: note further that some of us can't alter the firewalls that we're behind. Work firewalls, obviously, but I wouldn't be surprised if AT&T cable internet blocked this stuff (they block so much other stuff).<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I have the firewall on my own computer. Allowing TCP and UDP is a security risk, but I can live with it.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

I play a game called netrek that uses UDP connections to update a REAL TIME game. This game deals with up to 8 players per side in a real time fashion with weapons firing, planets being taken etc. As a user who was on dialup I can easily play on a server with no real slow down. Now hosting it would be a different matter altogether but that is due to the amount of bandwidth involved and not the difference between TCP and UDP.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
And honestly, isn't it just plain stupid to be a HOST on dialup? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Only clients should use dialup. The host should be on DSL/cable or some other broadband.<hr></blockquote>
Valid point. Mea culpa.

I know I won't be hosting anymore TCP/IP games unless I get DSL. I think it was a good thing to try though for testing purposes.

Although, even when Tampa was hosting it (He's on DSL, right?) there were times when it seemed that the first players were done before the Last players got their file. And this was only with a few people. Imagine 10 or 20. (Although I think it unlikely anybody could get that many Online at once for a TCP/IP game anyway.)

The limiting factor may simply be the sequential transfer rather than the UDP/TCP.

Geoschmo

Geoschmo

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

But does it really matter if the host is on DSL, if all of the other players are on dialups? Again this makes me think the sequential transfer is true culprit, not the speed of the host, or the UDP/TCP.

Afterall XY &lt; X^Y, if X&gt;2 & Y&gt;1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Edit: Corrected my equation

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Or, you could always use the PBW RTC when 1) the gold disc comes out and 2) we get the server back up and running http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Richard: you play Netrek? Wow... it has been a LONG time since I played that. Will have to check it out again... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Eric/LL

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Yeah I go by Canute on most servers and Cold Pizza on my League Team.

I actually just picked it up about 6 months ago or so, I used to play a LONGGGGG time ago back in college back in 92-94.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

What's "netrek"?

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Netrek can get away with UDP because the consequences of packet loss (UDP being a connection-free, best-effort protocol) are relatively minor -- perhaps a player's ship gets blown up because his "shield up" packets got dropped, but he'll respawn with a new one, and he might have up to seven teammates who can bail him out, at least in an 8-on-8-style Bronco game. Otherwise, no biggie; it's not transferring files that get corrupted.

Heh. I used to play, in, what, '93-'95 or '96 or so. Never took it too seriously, and my dodging and torp marksmanship was pretty darned lousy.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Just for the record, it turns out that SEIV Gold uses *both* UDP and TCP.

Judging by my dump logs, the client sends a UDP packet to say, "Yo, I'm here.". The server then responds with a similar packet.

Then you hit Begin Game on the host. The host sends a UDP packet, and then the *host* opens a TCP connection to a known port on the *client*.

This pretty much violates best practices of TCP/IP programming, and is just not a good idea.

Then the client creates their empire, and all the data transfer is done through TCP/IP.

At that point I stopped.

This is disturbingly bad networking code. I've been in contact with Aaron, whose response was "Open up the ports on your firewall.". Nevermind that when you're using UDP like this you can only have one host playing the game behind any given firewall, as long as the host is outside the firewall.

I'm rather annoyed, as this makes the game largely useless for my purposes. I specifically didn't get SEIV earlier because I wanted to play TCP/IP games during the day (i.e. from work; play a turn, work for an hour, play a turn, work for an hour, etc). Looks like it still isn't going to happen.

I know there's nothing you guys can do, but I wanted to vent.

-Robin, casting a long hard look at his pre-order.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Well, if you are only wanting to play a turn every hour or so, you don't really need TCP/IP at all. You could easily keep up that rate using PBW (Once we get it back up), or even standard PBEM. With only a small amount of playing with files. Very little actually if you use matryx's mod chooser to launch your turns.

Geoschmo

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

I don't have e-mail from the machine in question. 8)

Does PBW allow me to get around that?

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Yep. You can upload your turns directly to the PBW server through a web page interface. Then when everybody else does too the turn processes on the server and you can download the new turn directly from the server.

The only file handling would be unzipping it to the proper save game directory, and then uploading your .plr file after you play your turn.

RTC will automate that and you would have no file handling at all, but you may have firewall issues with that as well. I can't use RTC from work.

Geoschmo

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

RTC?

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

The ports are documented though if you only want to open up specific ports, BTW.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Doesn't help if:

1. You don't control the firewall.

2. You have more than one player behind the firewall (you can only forward UDP to one machine, because it's connectionless).

3. You have an inexpensive firewall that can't handle letting through UDP (some firewalls block UDP inbound for security reasons).

4. Your ISP blocks UDP (which some do for security reasons).

And regardless, there's no reason to use it at all.

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

RTC, PBW Real Time Client. It's a java program we have been testing for a while, but were are going to make available to everyone with the Gold release.

It interfaces with the PBW server and handles all the file transfer stuff/auto launches your game turn. Allows you to just log in and play the turns.

You have to have the java Runtime-environment on your machine to work, but you can get that free from sun. Shrapnel was going to put it on the gold CD as well if there was room so people don't have to download it.

And it runs on port 5190. So if your firewall blocks that you can't use it.

Geoschmo

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

Ooh, very cool.

My firewall allows arbitrary outbound TCP/IP connections on high (&gt;1023) ports. Most firewalls do. Then the allow the return packets, once the outbound connection has been made. This is how things are supposed to work.

-Robin

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif btw what is current rtc Version? i have 4

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

georgig, send me an email. I lost your email address while you were in the Army.

Re: SEIV Gold Demo does *not* have TCP/IP
 

BTW, Does anybody play Multiplayer in Gold right now?