OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Our grandparents came from Europe, with the hope of a better future. Now that hope is gone and we’re running away back to Europe, the USA or any country serious where you can hope to have what you earn working.
Argentina has the natural and human resources to be one of the richest countries in the world.
The only war during the Last century was the useless Falklands conflict. (I can tell you about that from our pov later.)
Argentina hasn't been devastated by war, but it has been devastated by a government that systematically and deliberately stole our money for decades.
Politicians, judges, syndicates, banks, powerful and monopolic companies, they are all part of the same mafia-like political class.
A political class with roots in the previous military dictatorship, and that reaches all levels of power.
What happened with privatized companies (phones, airlines, trains, ect.)? Instead of running them, the foreign companies that bought them (below their real price) systematically sold their infrastructure and took the many away (giving some politicians their piece).

If they are in trouble now, is only because they've stolen too much and our money is running out.

A good thing is that the media is with the people and against that political caste. (even if there are powerful multi-media companies that dominate the market and have strong bonds with the government, that we know manipulate what they publish)

The government was running out of money, and said they needed to borrow our money from the banks to keep the country running.
They said we had to keep our money in the county, that money on foreign banks will not come back to ourselves. We trusted them, that was our mistake.
Where do you think their money is? Safe off country of course.

Mid class does not exist any more. We’re all poor. There are the ones that have very little and the ones that have nothing.

Latest restrictions to bank operations were a desperate attempt to save the remaining banks.
BTW most of them are foreign, they were supposed to be more trustable than national banks because in the worst of cases their would bring money from their home countries to respond here. That didn't happen of course.
If more than a third part of the employees in the country worked unofficially, it was only because the taxes were extortively high. Those ones where the first ones that couldn't be paid without cash on the street.

At least we learnt our lesson with the military dictatorship government and know that interrupting democracy would only make things worse.
Even if our democracy is only an illusion, all we can do is choose between different factions of that corrupt "political caste". There is not a party that we can consider an option, they are all the same.

With popular pressure we made two presidents renounce (the other ones were supposed to assume only for a couple of days).

Did that make a change?
No.
The new president is still one of them. He made those bank restrictions even harder and deepened the economic recession. Pay chains are broken, it's impossible to pay and to be paid.
The whole country is at a halt, most workers are either doing nothing at work or at forced holidays.
Social unrest is unbearable.

To avoid devaluating even more Argentinean Pesos they’re now paying with some vouchers that not even worth the paper they’re printed on. So we have different qualities of money, many kind of vouchers, pesos, but if you want to be sure you have real money you have to buy expensive dollars.

We’ve been heard outside, international institutions and foreign governments have promised their help. But of course we fear that that help will go to the corrupt government and their accomplices, and will never reach the people.

Every time he made an announcement that only means to steal less and let us have a little portion of our money he was pressured by the powerful ones to take it back.

More and more people are emigrating. I used to think that we had to face the problems here and that running away would only deepen Argentina's crisis. But I found myself considering the possibility every time more seriously lately.

Now the only positive change in that now people is united.
There’s been a change in people’s mood. We went from resignation to demanding a change.
We know what we don't want.
That's the easy part, we don't want all this to continue.
But what we don't know is what we want, we know we want a change, but not what change we want.
Is there a way out? How do you change a corrupt system?
There’s another demonstration tonight. I’m going out with them, although I still don’t know what we want.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Here's what you could do man, if you're upset about something, make yourself heard. In a democracy, the people have the power. Break the political caste and get in office.
Most people think that they could do a better job than those in power. Well, step up to the challenge, hombre.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

We’re making ourselves heard.
In the Last elections Last year (for senators) the majority of votes were blank or impugned. The message was clear, we want to vote, we want a democracy but we don’t want any of these candidates.
And now ever since December 20 there’re demonstrations almost every day.

I believe that the politic class is broken and falling in pieces (and they’re taking the whole country with them), December 20 was only the beginning.

The word politician as became a synonym of corrupt and thief.
I don’t want to believe in that, I think there are still a lot of honest politicians, but they’re being corrupted by the system or at least they have their hands tied.
But the problem is that people’s hatred is directed against the politicians, and of course no one wants to be one of them.
So, how do you create a new generation of politicians if no one wants to be one of them?

The immediate economic situation is pretty bad. It was the detonating of all what’s going on, but it’s also another reason no one wants the power now, you need a lot more than good intentions to solve it.
I’m not an economist, but the restrictions to bank operations have been described as a time bomb.
Only a very skilled economist would know how to set it off.

I do believe that right now people pressure is strong enough to make those in power work on a solution to this immediate problem.

So right now I can only see two possible futures and none of them is pleasant.
1- The government can’t find a solution soon enough. (the ones we have now or future replacements) The country goes into some kind of anarchy or civil war. And only after that long painful period we can hope to have a different kind of government.
2- They find a “temporal” solution, the economy is reactivated and starts to slowly grow again. The people is appeased and the problem is forgotten, the politicians win and everything is like before. Until the corruptness of the system makes all this start again.

I just hope we can find a solution to the economic problem (that is a consequence of the political problem) before the whole country falls in pieces, and we find a way to clean the system so we can have the country we deserve.
¡Viva Argentina!

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Andres,

Thank you for posting this here. I can see that it's something you wanted to say, and I think it reflects well on this forum that you chose to make yourself heard here, when there are so many other places on the internet you could have gone to.

As for Argentina's situation: I don't know what to say. There must be ordinary people in Argentina now facing choices they never thought they'd have to face. I go through life thinking I'll never have to deal with civil unrest, poverty or the possibility of civil war, but this goes to show taht none of us can afford to b complacent. I guess this is the kind of situation that really tests people - when an entire country faces a crisis like this, and the future is so uncertain is when you really find out who is actually strong enough to do the right thing.

Andres, all I can really offer to you and your compatriots is the following: Whatever happens next in Argentina, I hope you and those around you are able to make the right decisions for yourselves and your country. Good luck, and take care of yourselves.

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: dogscoff ]</p>

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Andrés, what is supposed to be the goal of Duhalde's "corralito"? He don't let people get their savings, and Spanish newspapers says that soon the government will transform all money in Dollars to Pesos. That will reduce dramatically Argentina's wealth. Or I'm wrong?

The Madrid Airport is flooded with Argentinean immigrants in transit to other Spanish provinces, specially Galicia, and all of them says the same about the political class. They are really disappointed, but all of them love Argentina, and are dreaming with the return. You're right, the people is united.

Spain was under a fascist military dictatorship for fifty years, and in the transition to democracy we were in a very similar situation of riots and civil unrest. Several small revolutions attempted to install new dictators, but we were very lucky: we had a King.

There are terrible times for your country Andrés, but it will end. Soon, I hope. I wish you luck, Andrés.

¡Viva Argentina!

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Dear Andres: I was working during 4 months in Bs.As. and was in the "Microcentro" when De la Rúa was forced to leave the Last 20 of Dec. Really a bad experience, must say. Was like in the movies.
I think that Argentina is paying the price for the times of "Sushi y Pizas", and now, nobody in the world can help Argentina to avoid the current pain.
I believe that doesn't exist a magical solution, then, I can't understand the Last "Mega Cacerolazo" against Duhalde. 5 Presidents in 12 days was not enought?
I have family and friends in your country, and you know, my own country have close relations with Argentina, then, wish that Argentinea can overcome quickly their current problems, but honestly... I can't be optimist.
I'm really sad.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Andrés, what is supposed to be the goal of Duhalde's "corralito"? He don't let people get their savings, and Spanish newspapers says that soon the government will transform all money in Dollars to Pesos. That will reduce dramatically Argentina's wealth. Or I'm wrong?<hr></blockquote>

Saving the banks that don't have the money. And preventing people to take their depoists from the banks (to their houses or off country), leaving even less money in the banks making future retirements even more impossible.

Most dollars have already been converted to pesos. One of the problems is that we earn our money as (devaluated) pesos, but have many debts in dollars. One of the things that were being demanded these Last days, is that many of those debts are converted to pesos.

The "corralito" was started by Cavallo and De la Rúa, and it was that what made the people force them to leave.
Duhalde only made it even stricter. Of course that he said he had no option.
I don't know how to set if off. Emission of money can take us back to the situation on the late 80s and the hyperinflation.

Duhalde isn't better than De la Rúa or Rodriguez Saá.
Having him as president is not what we wanted in December 20.
But we can't keep firing every new president.
The only difference is that he is stronger among the politicians. What doesn't make him better for the people, but it will let him do what needs to be done even if other politicians don't like it.
The only reason we're letting him stay for now is that someone needs to do something quickly.
I believe and hope that he understands the seriousness of the situation and is giving his best.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

actually anarchy isn't a bad thing imagine no one messes with other's business and if we have people with different ideas they just sit and talk
other thing: i pay someone to tell me what to do what a stupidity if politician wants to give me orders make him pay for this (almost citation from 'the moon is a harsh mistress' robert heinlein - i like rational anarchist thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

go go go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: georgig ]</p>

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Anarchy won't work. If there was anarchy, nothing would work, and it would probably end up like Mad Max or Postman (one good movie, one bad).

BTW, Andres, always keep a little optimism tucked away. There might be some kind of breakthrough; who knows.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

So, what's up with Argentina? I haven't heard much of anything since the attention span of the news networks ran out. After all, nothing catastrophic or scandelous happened within a 24 hour period, so there isn't anything interesting going on, right?

My apoligies fer mi por spelin'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

I'd like to be able to tell you we're better now, but it looks like things are about to explode again soon.
I think that the main problem is that nothing has happened.
Recession has been only worsening during all this time.
The government keeps announcing new economic plans every week what only increases incertitude.
The only thing that Duhalde did shortly after assuming as president was devaluate.
We now know that one of our problems was that our currency was overvalued, devaluation could have been good, if it was a part of a plan. Instead all it did is trigger our old friend the inflation. The only thing holding off hyperinflation (like we had in the early 90s) is the recession.
The bank "corralito" is still up. Now they came up with a "tapón" law to prevent people from getting their savings with a judicial order.

Last week they wanted to cover bank debts with state emitted "bonex", what means again the state covering debts of power friend's private companies and stealing our savings to pay.
Now it seems that each bank will emit its own "bono", so we'll have hundreds of useless papers going around.
They told us to trust banks and to trust our money like people from most other countries do. Now we're paying the price for believing them. Our experience has tough us once more than the only safe way to keep your savings it to buy dollars and hide them at home.

It seems that the only ideas were to put exigencies from the IMF, and how to increase their fund-raising for the state (mostly by increasing taxes) and not how to reactivate internal economy.

[ 29 April 2002: Message edited by: Andrés Lescano ]</p>

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

The situation you describe and what I read in the newspapers here in Holland sounds very bad. This is not a temporary crisis, the economic system is bankrupt.

To fix the economic system of Argentina will take a long time and a lot of offers. As a matter of principle the idea of temporary fixing bankaccounts is not bad, it will give time for the banksystem to recover (with help from the international community?). If the banksystem collapses, than Argentina will face an even worser breakdown. BUT foreign banks have foreign reserves for their liabilities.

One big word of optimism: the people of Argentina is united against the problems and does everything in there power to overcome them.

respeto!!!!!

I have seen it different in Africa, where the people take their situation for granted and don't show the stamina of your people.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

One solution, or at least help would be to send people from the financial elite from other countries like lets say Germany, England, France over to Argentinia, they could help establishing a new economical system.

Anyway sorry for the grammar and typos, this was really hard to write for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheGunslinger:
One solution, or at least help would be to send people from the financial elite from other countries like lets say Germany, England, France over to Argentinia, they could help establishing a new economical system.<hr></blockquote>

I think that was done already.

If you ask me, the Argentine economy is bound to start up again, even if it takes the Argentine government to cut back major stuff.

Economic Miracles can happen if the country is united; happened in Korea, Germany, Taiwan, and Japan.

Just My two cents.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

This has been discussed a lot, I agree, most private banks here are foreign, and should be able to respond with their home-country reserves.
Politicians are again helping state banks that wouldn’t be available to do this, and as always helping their friends to do great business.
Another interesting fact is that the economic problems of banks are because they were forced to lend money to the state.

The state (national state and provinces) has been funding itself in constant indebtedness, if that makes sense, for the Last 10 years.
One of the banks that is in worst problems is the "Banco Provincia de Buenos Aires". What a coincidence that Duhalde has been governor of that province during that time.
Until Devember, when banks were so impoverished that could take it no more, and Cavallo had to create the corralito, they’ve been working to hide their own mistakes and not looking for a solution.
We cannot trust the same corrupts who created the problem in first place to solve it now.

Not only the financial system is bankrupt, the whole political system is collapsing.
The most believable and serious of the many new movements we’re seeing now concentrate on how to create a new political class in which people can believe and trust, and not on how to solve the economic problem that is but a consequence of the corrupt political system.
There’s been much talk lately about the re-foundation of the republic.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

You know, as someone in Phoenix, AZ... I would not have thought that this would affect me. Hell, honestly, I had to figure out WHERE Argentina was (ditched history in school, so incidentally geography went with it)

...Anyway, this enrages me deeply, and forced me to consider how things are over here as well... There is a bigger fake-smile on things and, of course, the economy has some stability (some *lol*)... but Banks arent much different. Its funny, I think someone at my bank, for example, waits and watches until my account gets to a lower amount, and then -and only then- do they post those "delayed" transactions... *LOL* They robbed my *** blind, pulled me into a negative and cleared my savings account as an act of "overdraft protection"... bull**** *lol* Thieves.

Anyway, I feel for your cause, and have been watching this thread... I know I cant really do anything, but Im glad you and your people there have the balls, initiative, and drive to accomplish as much as you have. I mean ****, 5 presidents in 12 days? Did I read that right? Obviously... the people as a whole are a force to be reckoned with.

And hell - if non-violent actions cannot solve the problem... if worse comes to worse... revenge can feel good with homemade explosives... Not to be the voice of evil, violence or terrorism... But from I've read here, and heard elsewhere - **** the Argentina Government. Would feel no sympathy if mysterious fires erupted and took down some of those offices. Should things turn too far - its either time to go, or time to take the country back.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

I feel for you and Argentina. You will be in my prayers.

May your good capable people be ALLOWED to succeed.
May their heirs be ALLOWED to fail.


--------------------------------------------

God Bless

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Andres,

Buena suerte para Ud. y su familia!

I was thinking about you a couple weeks back as I was downloading some of your shipsets and read your address as being from Argentina.

The things we take for granted... like having a good sense of what tomoroow will likely bring and it isn't anarchy, is something to be thankful for.

Best wishes.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

sorry, no economic wonder.

Economic Wonders don't happen. There are things we can't explain, but a wonder, no. Very simple: an economy needs some basic terms, for example good (tax)laws, healty finacial system (e.g. trustworthy(to exclude Andersen) accountants, banks, analyst, press, ect), less corruption, stabile government, etc.

sorry Andres, but like you know, Argentina violates some of these basic terms and to fix them will take a lot of time even with a 'honest' government, I mean a government who forces banks to give them loans???? Unbelievable.

Here in Holland the reaction from Dutch multinationals to the Argentina crisis is withdrawing or freezing of operations in Argentina. To get their trust and money back will take a long time.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Andres,

I'm really sorry to hear how badly things are (continuing) to go in Argentina http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . It's an incredible shame that the people entrusted to run the country for the people systematically robbed them.

The worst part is, these corrupt individuals probably are incapable of having shame... they had to be forced from office, not having the morality to see their unmatched ambition and corruption!

I wish you the best, you and your country. May God have mercy on the humble, and may He crush the proud under His feet (what other hope can there be?).

-jimbob

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

"they had to be forced from office, not having the morality to see their unmatched ambition and corruption!"

If they had that, they probably wouldn't have done it in the first place..

Phoenix-D

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Yeah,

Don't think me too much a sucker, but I firmly believe that (nearly) everyone has a concience. Oh sure, they milk a little, they skim a bit, and pretty soon they skim a lot without really considering the consequences. I could see myself slipping down that slippery slope pretty easily anyway (the "hey, it's just money, it's not like I killed anybody" argument).

And then &lt;blam!&gt; all the cheating of the economy catches up with them! (and unfortunately, it catches up with Argentina) Now if they have any inkling of a concience left, it's time to resign, and admit wrong-doing.

I guess it's pretty unreasonable to cut these scum-bags any moral slack - though powerful people caught in immoral places have fessed up and apologized before.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Jimbob,

I understand what you're saying but don't confuse "conscience" (which has a moral implication) with a sense of self-preservation that accompanies socio-pathological behavior. People who would F an entire country with no thought to the ultimate ramifications other than to consider how they could pull it off relatively unscathed don't have enough moral fortitude to keep them awake at night.

As for apologies.... what good does that do? It doesn't undo their crime, nor make things right. Apologize if they will but accompany it with accountability by them and theirs for the effects of such thievery on a grand scale.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

wr8th:

You're right, they're probably losing sleep more over the fear of reprisal than over what they've done to their people, what a sad commentary on people in positions of power.

As to the apology thing - It seems to me that the apology is a key step in reconciliation and a return to normal, functional society. The greatest (recent) example that I can think of was the "reconciliation commission" put together in South Africa under Archbishop Desmond Tutu. (The premise was that everyone would own up to their wrong doings in a public and legal setting. In exchange for their admitance and contrition, they were guaranteed forgiveness [ie no prosecution] by the state. If you did not own up to your misdeeds by the deadline however, the state was free to prosecute) This act of national confession/forgiveness accomplished three things in my opinion.

1) wrong doers could potentially make a break with their old ways. They could admit and then be forgiven for their deeds. The other option is to be obstinant and refuse to admit ones wrong doing for the sake of self preservation.
2) victims could finally stop fighting to be heard and believed = validation.
3) the country could then move forward because there had been resolution. To see the truth of this, compare the state of South Africa and that of Zimbabwe as it pertains to race-relations.

Now, as to how this type of reconciliation and renunciation of corruption could be acheived in Argentina is beyond me... infact it seems to beyond anyone at the moment. Perhaps instead of calling in the International Monetary Gurus, they should call in people of great character (Tutu, Dali Lama, John Paul II, & others) to help resolve this mess. I believe that there are probably home-grown men of honour too.

Re: OT- Argentina, what a country!
 

Andres, any more news?