Battle of Mokra
 

Anyone played that scenario(# 270)?

I really wonder about many things here:
-At guns(37mm) scoring hits up to 1km on the first shot.
-Tanks getting pounded from all directions by infantry but not being able to spot them even when unsuppressed.
-The Krad is useless beyond words, shouldn't those units work differently by using Krads as transport and being able to dismount infantry?
The way they now work is like targets on a shooting range.

I know that this was a hard battle for the Germans but as much as it frustrates playing the German it must bore the hell out of playing the Poles with the German being so unable to put up a good fight.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

1/ Do you think everyone has committed the scenario number and name of all 434 sceanrios to memory ? Next time include the number.

2/ The 37mm AT guns have no special powers but the CREWS have high experience and high experience is how you get first shot hits

3/ The scenario designer choose to use the "old style" Krad units for those three units. It's his choice and IF you read the scenario description the scenario designer clearly says that if played against the AI the human player should take the Polish side and from your "it must bore the hell out of playing the Poles" comment it's clear that you haven't played it as the designer intended the scenario to be played so that would make it difficult to judge how "boring" it might be to play the way it was designed to be played. Every players experience with the game and there expectations of what makes a good battle are different and it's impossible to make everyone happy all the time especially when it's not played as it was intended to be played

Don

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

1. Indeed, I changed that now, sorry.

2. Thanks for pointing to that.

3. Sure but the AI will surely not act as careful as I do and I can't imaging that it's any problem playing the Polish side, especially with at-guns that have a higher xp than all other Polish units on the map an usually hit and kill and the first shot.
Just to throw some numbers in, 6x37mm at-guns each with 70 AP rounds against 52 German tanks means 8 shoots for every tank what is more than enough.
All the Polish at-guns have the changed flag set when checking them in the extended scenarios hack utility, not sure if the crew values were the only things changed.
Not sure under which version this scenario was made but maybe the designer pimped them because they acted poor under that version, at least here they have no problems at all.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

Can anyone be so kind to upload the original spscn270.dat of this scenario, I was so silly to overwrite the original while modifying it.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

Here you go

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

Thanks.
I found also that none of the German 2cm guns has any HE ammo, again I wonder if that is for a reason or just remnants of a too old scenario made under an older OOB that didn't have HE ammo for them.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

270 Battle of Mokra 9/39 was released in 2006 and the German 2cm guns in the 2006 OOB's have both HE , AP (and sabot in the later venison of the weapon ) and that is also the case with the earliest OOB set I have on file which date from 2002 so their lack of HE has nothing to do with "remnants of a too old scenario made under an older OOB" as 2006 is NOT a " too old scenario"


If Ulf shows up again we can ask him why he took out the German HE but seeing as it's designed to be played as the Poles I'm going to guess he was helping out the Polish player and that is his prerogative as the designer

I have played that scenario as the Germans and came up with a draw with more points in my favour and I consider that perfectly acceptable. It's not an easy scenario to win as the Germans but it wasn't designed to be played that way and in the 7 years since it was released you are the ONLY person to complain about it and I have tested it as the German and YES the Polish 37mm AT guns sting and YES the lack of HE hurts the German side and as I have pointed out..... the scenario was designed to be played from the Polish side, the Polish AT gunners have higher than normal experience and as you have pointed out the German 2cm guns do not have HE but NONE of that has anything whatsoever to do with the age of the scenario OR the changes that have been made to the game since then.





Don

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

As you mentioned the "old style" Krad units I thought there could have be some different loadouts for ammo in past, it was just a guess.
And I guess again when I say that maybe the ammo wasn't the problem but the values for the 2cm guns, maybe they were too effective at that time.
Anyhow seeing how much work goes into each update of the game makes scenarios this old likely to show some "effects", seen that very well on other strategy games.

I guess with complaining you mean being the only person taking time and giving feedback to point out that the scenario is a cakewalk for the Poles and unplayable as Germans, don't get me wrong the designer can setup the scenario as he likes but with some small adjustments the scenario would be interesting & challenging for both sides and that doubles the fun because you get 2 rounds for the price of one, besides being closer to history.

Just to sum it up:
When playing as human with the Poles there is nothing to be afraid off, I didn't see the AI using area fire with anything so only way to bring HE 2cm into a target is by spotting the Polish positions first, that usually means tanks & infantry are deep in the deadly range of the AT-gun, AT-rifle and MG positions and have already taken a good toll on their numbers, if they get that far at all with AI in German command.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

If it was "unplayable" as the Germans how did I get a high point draw ?

It is not "unplayable" as the Germans, it is however, a serious challenge.




Don

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

Either by using secret nazi weapons like this :D :
http://farfromatari.files.wordpress....in-3d_9977.jpg

Or because :you:

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

....more because I tried to not re-enforce failure.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

Hello BigDuke66!

I'm the guy behind that scenario. I know it's a bit on the easy side when playing the Poles - but I Think that's ok, the 4th Panzer Div did get a bit of a thrasing at Mokra and again outside Warszaw a few days later.

I want scenarios to be more of a surprise than perfectly balanced. There is a great variation in "skill level" between players. Some veterans are absolute demons at this game, what is hard for them is near impossible for newbies and so on.

Usually though, most scenarios I have made will favour player 2 (the side meant to be played by the AI) and will be easier when played by a human vs the AI.

However, I don't remember modyfing the FlaK guns though I guess I did... (?)

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

Well a surprise it was when the first tanks got killed by the first shot on almost 1km.
Don't get me wrong "balance" isn't necessary here, the setup should be like it was historically and the scenario should try to point at the historical outcome but the "tricks" to shift the way the scenario runs to get the result you want were somehow "unfair" in my opinion.

Indeed the 4th did have problems on that day and later again at least judging by some first hand accounts of German officers, but as I said the setup seemed shifted in an "unfair" way with German tanks without HE ammo, Krad units that can't get off their bikes and Polish Pak that gets XP & moral high above other polish units and even German units.
Of course the missing "Smialy" must be compensated but I wonder if there isn't any other way to do that.
I tried the scenario with the Paks set to normal values and Krad units changed to the once that can disembark and the gameplay was much more fun on the German side simply because it didn't frustrate me with the feeling of having a hand tied behind the back, if I had added the HE ammo for the 2cm guns of the German tanks I guess the gameplay would have been even more fun.
The AI still did a good job and got tank kills but this time leaving some tanks for the AT-rifle units. The Krad units did their job as recon but got off the biles when things started to get nasty and the tanks also did their jobs with some weapons between the usually MG and the 7,5 HE rounds that the Pz IV can throw in.

I would go for a setup in this manner and give something to the Poles to compensate form the missing Smialy(some bunkers on the rail line maybe?) instead of tuning the Germans down and the Poles up in a rather strange way.

PS Regarding the "old school" units used I have a similar problem with them in your scenario 356 Prosna Bridghead.
The inability to dismount bicycle and horse units is also very frustrating as it seems to me that these units are easy to kill, but of course on the other hand the Poles use dismounted troopers that have no transport assets(their horses) at all.
So if both sides would simply go for the real McCoy using the unit types that can mount/dismount the transports(horses & bicycles) it would be a fine improvement of the scenario.

PPS Just playing your scenario 272 and I love it, really teaches the player how to use smoke for a covered approach but also how to use artillery and MGs to suppress the enemy, and also to circle around strong points like bunkers to take them out.
After the player has done this scenario he should be much more capable of using his infantry & artillery in concert but also to handle situations even such assaults without any tank support.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

I think you might be right about that, and it would be pretty easy to fix.

As for the old school mounted units - I understand the limitations of not being able to dismount them - and yes they are vulnerable - but they can be useful even to a human player. Especially cavalry is dangerous to battered enemy formations and damaged units in a tight spot.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

Ulf

If you wish to issue an update to this sceanrio at any time I will be happy to put it into a patch. I had planned to change the Krad units to the newer dismountable versions and have a look at the German ammo issue.

Don

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

spscn270 - PzII tanks replaced to variants with HE ammo and the exp/morale of the Polish AT guns have been reduced.

I didn't touch the mounted units for either side but feel free to change that, or anything else of course.

Re: Battle of Mokra
 

The first one in my case. I think this is the one where I once traded out all the German tanks for M-26 Pershings. Poles won anyway, mostly because I'd given them a cavalry unit consisting of fireball-throwing Hellsteeds.

I've done some weird things to my OOBs...

I've already done this for both Poland and China; creating custom Mounted Infantry/Dismounted Cavalry similar to the US/German equivalents. Dismounted bicycles? I know the Swedes have it. Never saw the need to copy it, even though I use bicycle cavalry heavily when playing the Poles (they make excellent tank riders, odd as that may sound).