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IDF OOB project.
Hello. After the conversation in the TI thread I opened, I realized it would be easier to open a thread. Here I will go over the OOB starting from unit 002 and onward and find things I think should be changed.
As requested I will post each group of findings in a separate massage in this thread. I will post links to my sources, but some(many) will be in Hebrew. Some sources are my own knowledge and asking people I know, as I know many IDF officers present and past... |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Hotchkiss tanks:
*Israel OOB 04 Unit 003 Hotchkiss H35: This should be the H39(currently unit 435 in the OOB). *Israel OOB 04 Unit 010 Hotchkiss H35i: I personally have never heard of a 6pdr hothkiss in Israeli service. The shoehorning of such a weapon into the H39 seems unlikely to me. Further more, the 37mm guns that the tanks came with were actually removed and put on armored cars- as the tanks were mechanically unreliable. The constant engine and transmission issues had this tanks listed as "Unfit" from December 1948 onward. This means that in reality, H39 tanks were available only from 5/1948 when they arrived to 1/1949 when they were withdrawn from operational service altogether, and their guns were removed and put in the turrets of armored cars. Source: http://www.yadlashiryon.com/show_ite...401&itemType=0 (the Israeli Armored Corps Museum) Speaking of small french tanks, the Renault R-35, a cousin to the Hotchkiss, is missing altogether...At least one of 3 tanks captured from the Syrians was repaired in 1948 and used along side the Hotchkiss and Cromwell tanks. If added I think it should be available until 1949, but this a guess based on the Sherman tanks arriving in greater quantities around that time. The R-35 can be added instead of unit 011, which as mentioned before should be removed. Source: http://www.himush.co.il/?section=203 (IDF Ordnance Corps Veterans) |
Re: IDF OOB project.
FYI I know it's the Isreali OOB were are dealing with so I don't need "Israel OOB 04 Unit 003"...... Just "Unit 003" and if the tank is already in as a light tank it does not need to be in again as another class unless it's needed to bridge a gap in the unit list which in this case it does not so in this case unit 3 would just be removed or renationalized for now and removed later.
ALSO...... Quote:
So YES... changing Unit 010 Hotchkiss H35i for a Renault R-35 would work but you need to check and correct the errors in your reports before posting otherwise we will have "problems" as we progress though this Don |
Re: IDF OOB project.
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Good point I will try to do better checking of my posts. I did actually go over it but i somehow missed that I put in 11 instead of 10. Other than that, is this a worthwhile endeavor or am I wasting your time? |
Re: IDF OOB project.
For now, moving along...Even though I said I will run by unit numbers, I really have to jump forward to keep all units of a certain model in a single post( because obsolete tanks for instance are very far down the oob)
Sherman Tanks(gun tanks only for now) Unit 006 Sherman M1: Should not be available later than 1970. I know for a fact no training for these tanks was made past this year, hence I am convinced they were retired from regular units. Unit 008 Sherman M50 As with the M1, I know for a fact no training was done for these from 1970 at least. So should not be available from 1970. Unit 009 Sherman M51: As for the other 2 Sherman variants, should not be available past 1970. Unit 625 M1 Sherman: All the Sherman units in 1973 were using the M50 and M51. On the other hand I know that some reserve units like the 27th brigade had them in 1956. I suggest a new availability range of 1/1956-1/1972. This is conservative as I cant seem to find anything to prove what I really think(1954 to 1969) Unit 626 Sherman M50 : Following the remark on unit 008, this should be avilable from 1/1970 at the least. Probably earlier(1/1969?) Unit 627 Sherman M51 Following on from the remark on unit 009, this should be avilable from 1/1970. For both units 626 and 627 I would put an end date of 12/1982. I cant source this but the tanks were not used in Lebanon AFAIK by the IDF. They were sold to Chile and some given to SLA as we all know. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
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It's all going on "the list" but I won't really be starting work on it until at least October - November Don |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Gingertanker I hope this will help you get off to a good start.
Ref.1 one of the Sh'ot-Kai is worth the time just for the pictorial history shown to include other tanks you might wish to research from this site. Sh'ot-Kal (British Centurion Mk3 and Mk5.)... These tanks would not have the IR equipment on them at least not from Britain. They would not be put on the British CENTURION until the Mk9 became available. However in ref 1 Israel had full access to the CHIEFTAIN technology so if they didn't have an IR FCS prior to that, they definitely had access to one of the most advanced FCS at that time and I can see where some Sh'ot-Kai units would've been equipped with it. They were in active service until the late 80's then relegated to reserve units until retired in 2002. Ref. 1 is a full on IDF tanker site which I've used in the past most recently in the MERKAVA 4/4b troop carrying issue as the site actually had pictures of combat troops in that situation inside and outside of the tanks which I posted. http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/20...tion-2009.html http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...sp?armor_id=13 http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...l/shot-kal.htm MAGACH 1-5 (USA M48A1, M482C and M48A5.) then MAGACH 6-7C (USA M60, M60A1 and M60A3.)... Here is where I can see issues beyond dates...six different tanks for one named one. I already knew the M48 made up I thought MAG 1/2 until the M60 series became available for MAG 3 on, well my thinking was wrong there. The MAGACH 6 (M60 version only.) was available for combat service prior to the YOM KIPPUR War and did fight in it. I have an almost even split not on whether the MAGACH 7 is still in service, because it is, but whether it is still currently a front line tank or in active reserve status. The MAGACH 7C was in front line service at least through the end of 2003. One tank not mentioned from the TI thread is the SABRA which is a much improved offshoot version of the MAGACH, that tank complicants this issue further. The variant section of ref 1 will be very important to assess capabilities as they might now exist in the game. I would expect the MAGACH 7C to see service/or be available to this games end due to the currently imposed reduced production of the MERKAVA 4b. http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe..._pictures.html http://www.patton-mania.com/IDF_Patt...f_pattons.html http://www.military-today.com/tanks/magach_7.htm http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3186.html The above IDF armor site might be useful here as well for date research and these tanks in general especailly in the modifications the IDF made to them. It's late and I have to work later today. I will try to address/provide info on the SABRA (Still serving in frontline units.) and MERKAVA 1-4 later tonight or on Sunday. There is good info in the reading material that might help in narrowing the date issues brought up and I tried my best to answer the general questions as well that were raised in the TI thread later posts. Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Thank you Pat.
Some shots certainly had IR before the TI came in I need to look into that. But the dates are after the Yom Kippur war, mid 70s to mid 80s when the TI started coming in. The Shot-Kal Daled/Brak Or was in service with the 188th until 1992. The last reserve unit was shut down in 2002 as you mentioned. As for Magach variants, fortunatly I did the wikipedia Hebrew page on this a few years ago with a shot list of the models, along with some other tankers. So I know the wiki page is good...So when I get to Magach tanks I should not have too much trouble. Also- Magach 7 is app(I just checked this a few days ago) no longer in service. This must have happened around 2010 or so...It was out of front line service 2003 when they shut down the 500th armored. Sabara was never in IDF service. The Magach 6B Gal was preferred for continued service and is still in reserve units. BTW the rumors right now are that Merk 4 production will be at full steam- the cost being a reduction of the total number of tanks(meaning retirement of older tanks). |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Gingertanker,
Wish I had come across this website and IDF one from yesterday morning sooner when dealing with the Turkish M60T. I needed a "reboot" on the SABRA. The confusion from what I'm reading now stems from the IMI proposal to the IDF to upgrade the MAGACH 7C with a 120mm MG with some other improvements and designate it the SABRA Mk I. A further upgrade would be made to the MAGACH 7C but, as you noted it would be the MAGACH 6B GAL BATASH (aka Magach 7D or 8) as noted by both refs mentioned as well also. So SABRA is the upgraded export version of the MAGACH. The Turkish M60T in reality is a SABRA Mk I-III as it's development between Israel and Turkey progressed. http://www.patton-mania.com/IDF_Patt...f_pattons.html http://www.army-technology.com/projects/sabra/ I'll just post from one site on MERKAVA as it's comprehensive with dates and variants... MERKAVA 1 Mk I... http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe...entificat.html MERKAVA 2 Mk II... http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe..._identifi.html MERKAVA 3 Mk III... http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe...tion_iden.html http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava/ MERKAVA 4 Mk IV... http://www.armyrecognition.com/israe..._identifi.html http://www.army-technology.com/projects/merkava4/ Thanks again about the SABRA again I remember it being a headache at the time the M60T was being submitted. Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
A second go at Shot/Centurion tanks!
Digging in deeper than the TI thread... Units 011, 012, 014: *Only 014 is named Sh'ot Meteor, while in reality all of them were Sh'ot Meteor(named so because of the Meteor engine). Not sure how the names should be changed... *014 Should be available until 1971, I know for a fact training for it was still conducted for regular troops in 1970. *An obsolete tank unit with the stats from 014 Sh'ot Meteor should be available until 12/73. Sh'ot tanks with petrol engine took part in the 1973 war. Units 013,015,016-019, 628, 629 *Start date for 013 should be 5/1970 when the first Sh'ot Kal Alef were put into service. As 700 tanks were converted, it is also obvious that an obsolete tank unit corresponding to this should be available starting 1970 and probably available to the late 80s(sorry I cant give a precise end date). Sh'ot Kal Bet was basically similar to Sh'ot Kal Alef and came about in 1975. The difference between the two is not really relevant to the game(change of turret controls). I suggest not to make separate units for Bet and Alef. *Unit 017: I had trouble with this. I have conflicting sources on the Sh'ot Brak-Or. This is the best I could come up with, a book about the IDF Ordnance Corps says the Brak-Or conversion was only done in 1984. In 1979 Shot Kal Gimel came into service, with passive IR, better FCS and some with Blazer(but indeed many Alef and Bet were given blazer as well). So I suggest 017 be renamed Shot Kal Gimel. Given 30 vision for passive IR(had the same M32 sight as the Merk 1). Should also receive LRF and probably a boost to the FCS stat(to 20 maybe?). Stabilizer should be upped to 4, to reflect the new turret control identical to the Magach 6B. Blazer is optional. This also needs an obsolete tank unit, starting in 1979 and ending 2002. I would suggest using slot 628. *Unit 018 Sh'ot Brak-Or: . Should have TI, LRF, Stabilizer 4 as in previous model, and FCS similar to Magach 6B Gal(32).End date should be 12/1992. *Unit 019: Can be removed as its start date is so close to the end of centurions in regular IDF units . Another option is to copy the revised unit 018 here and re split the dates to 1990, as to allow use of the improved Is90 gun.... *Unit 629 Should be available from 1/1993, to reflect the tanks being moved from regular to reserve units. I am so tired now :) Why did the IDF do so many conversions:) |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Magach Chaos!
Here we are than, took a break and back. The IDF had 11 to 15 models of the M48 and M60 in service. It is really, really hard to know when each model entered service and when it was retired. Iwill do my best, fixing here what i can. I am sure alot moire can be done but honestly it would take the curator of Latrun to do it, and I am not him. M48A1 and A2 tanks were sold to israel from 62-64 by the US and west Germany, and are accurately represented by unit 020. So far so good. **** will now hit the fan. Unit 021 Mag'ach 3, Unit 022 Mag'ach 3: As far as I could figure out, the tanks were all upgraded with L7 guns. There is really no need for two versions of the tank(both weapons have identical stats as it is)I also suggest an obsolete tank unit added for this tanks(start 1969 end 1980 ish). I haven't been able to find information about dates, but I would think the current dates are p. much on the spot. Unit 023 Mag'ach 5, Unit 024 Mag'ach 5: Start date for 023 should be 1979, Mag'ach 5 was the M48A5, only sold to Israel that year...Obsolete tank unit should exist from 1970 at the least. Unit 025 Mag'ach 5A I havee no idea what this is. It might have existed but was probably a minor change from 5. End and start dates make no sens. Could not find it in searches. I think it should be removed. Okey so far for today, I will try to post next on the rest of the Mag'ach units in the OOB(there are alot). |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Magach Chaos 2!
Correction to my previous post which I cant seem to be able to edit: Obsolete tank unit for Mag'ach 5 should be avilable from 1980 and not 1970. my finger slipped. And back to the frying pan(no joke when talking about Pattons): Units 026 to 029 Mag'ach Blazer These, I assume, are meant to represent Magach 3 and 5 tanks with Blazer armor, as seen from the early 80s. This is a good idea, the Magach 3 and 5 are nearly identical there is no need to have 2 different units for them with Blazer( also as we dont know the end date of their service in reserves and can only guess). Howerver- Unit 026 and 027 seem to be identical to me aside from their ammo load. I very much doubt there was any change in ammo loads in the IDF during that time. Moreover ammo loads vary according to sector and operations. I suggest the units be merged to save space. Unit 029 is available until 1999, extremely unlikely date. Though the IDF had standing Magach brigades past that year, by that time we had cut down our armor corps significantly(in the mid 80s and again in the early 90s), and had received many M60 and M60A1 tanks. I suggest Unit 029 removed, and unit 028 set an end date of 1986. However, as there were probably 1,200 M48 of all types in the IDF, the reserve units with blazer probably survived until the early-mid 90s. Obsolete tank units should be made to reflect this, with the last one ending around 1993(conservative. It might have been 1988 and might have been 1995. I cant find it). Units 030 and 031 Mag'ach 6A The Magach 6A is the M60A1 with elongated turret. the tanks were sold to Israel in 1971-1972. They were converted to Magach 6B in 1980. I think this doesn't justify two separate units. Suggest putting the stats from 031 in slot 030 and giving start date of 1/1972 with end date 12/80. An obsolete tank unit for reserves should have roughly the same end date, with a start date of 1974 or so... Slot 031 can now be used for Magach 6C:the M60A3 supplied to Israel from 1985 to 1990. It should be identical to the original M60A3 but with IR. Availability should be 1985 to 1993 in standing units, and a corresponding obsolete tank unit for reserve units available from 1985 to the late 1990s. Units 033 and 034 Magach 6B should have ERA. Units 035, 036 and 037 Magach 6M 035 and 036 seem Identical to me...Am I wrong? Suggest they be united and renamed Magach 6R(early 6M). Should have LRF. Use start date from 035 and end date from 036. Unit 036 can be moved to 035. This is the REAL 6M...The 6M had not only ERA, but a very good fire control system(a high 20s or even 30 for FCS is warranted)and LRF. Slot 36 can now be used for the past 1986 Magach 6M, with improved engine (900hp) and hence greater speed). I think that as far as obsolete units, only one for the Magach 6R and 6M is needed. This should start around 1986 for comfort(to have only one and not 2) and should be available until late 90s. It should be a copy of the new unit now in 036 Mag'ach 6M. God this is really hard to do. Luckily I am almost done with the tanks. Only a few more Magach variants in the next post, and than Merks. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Magach Chaos- The End!
Score. Found a detailed Hebrew explanation about the Magachs. too late for my last post..but now we can rock and roll on the rest. As for my last post I mentioned that the Magach 6M should have a high FCS figure. I failed to understand how high. The 6M in fact had the Nahal Oz FCS. This is the same as Merkava 2b and Magach 7. In the OOB these are different. I suggest making them all the same. The FCS figure for Magach 6M, All Magach 7 variants, and all Merkava 2b should probably be around 38. I know this changes alot of things but it reflects reality better, as you will understand from the next changes I propose. Mag'ach Gal units 038 and 039 Should be renamed Mag'ach 6B Gal.In reality these were Magach 6B given the Gal FCS. This is not represented, as the current unit has FCS 32...Gal is better than Nahal Oz, and is the base for the Baz FCS(as in Merkava Mk 3 Baz). These units should be given a FCS rating of 40(assuming my previous recommendation to change FCS on Merk 2b and Magach 6M+7 is accepted), showing their advantage over the Merk 2b and Mag'ach 7 when it comes to FCS. Its worth mentioning that even during my time in service in 2006-2008, the 6B Gal was considered a "sniper", and usually reserve units with these tanks hit better than standing units with Merkava 2b. As far as dates, the end date for this should be 2004.Obsolete tank unitd should be added for the 6B Gal, running from 1988 to 2014(status is currently uncertain for the future). An interesting unit which does not exist in game is the Magach 6B Baz. It saw the replacement of the Gal system with the Baz system. If brought into the game, it should only exist as an obsolete tank from the mid 90s until 2014. The 6B Baz was only introduced to reserve units. This should have the same FCS rating as Merkava 3 Baz- 48. Unit 040 Mag'ach Batash This should be the 6B Gal already discussed with an improved armor design. However in the OOB the only difference I could spot was a change in ammo load. In reality the change in protection included both passive and reactive armor improvements. The units armor stats should be improved to represent this. End date for the unit should be 2004, and an obsolete tank unit should be made with start date around 2004 and end date 2014. Unit 041 Mag'ach 7 Alef In the name of uniformity, I would change name to Mag'ach 7A. As I mentioned I would up the FCS to 38. End date should be set to 2003 when the 500th armored brigade was cut. Unit 042 Mag'ach 7 Gimel Again, should be renamed Mag'ach 7G. FCS should be 38. End date should be 2003 like 041. For both 041 and 042 there are doubles in 634 and 635. The class for these doubles was left 59, should be made 102 to allow the purchase as reserve units. NO MORE MAGACHS! Hurrra! Next post will be on Tiran tanks. I would do it now but this post is already very long. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Tiran tanks
found a good, but unfortunately hebrew source for this topic: http://www.yadlashiryon.com/vf/ib_it...4/sefer274.pdf This is about the first Tiran brigade in the IDF, its actions in the Yom Kippur war, and also a small section about the Tirans after Yom Kippur. This makes it very easy to fix dates and other issues. The first thing to note about all of these units, is that if we maintain the current way the IDF oob works, that reserve formations use the obsolete tank unit class, than all of these need to be change to obsolete tanks. All Tirans were used by reserve units. IF(and personally I think this is a big if) IDF reserve tank formations need to have a -5 moral and exp modifier, than so should the Tiran units. Unit 043 Tiran 4 were captured T54 tanks with minimal changes. These were all converted by summer of 73 to Tiran 4Sh. End date should be 8/1973 and not as it is now. Some Tiran 4Sh(those built off of T54A) had no electric stabilizer, setting them apart from the Tiran 5Sh discussed latter. I am not sure if this warrents adding the Tiran 4Sh as a separate unit. If it does- It should be identical to Tiran 5Sh, aside from having 1 stabilizer instead of 2. Unit 044 Tiran 5 Should have end date of 8/1973, for same reason as unit 043. Units 045,046,047 Tiran 5Sh The Tiran 5Sh originally was a very small conversion- replacement of the 100mm to the 105mm M68 Shrir main gun. Unlike it is portrayed in the game, the FCS was not changed. The FCS stat should be reduced to 5. The smoke discharger should be removed(it was added later) Units 049,050,051 Some Tiran 5Sh were given a second round of conversions in the late 70s. I suggest the name be changed to Tiran 5Sh M. (M for Meshupar=improved in hebrew). The improvements included- smoke dischargers, ERA armor, fire supression system and other things but NOT an FCS change. The FCS for these should remain 5. No LRF was added! As hard as it is to believe the IDF never put new FCS on its captured T-55 tanks. It was planned and a few prototypes were made(T-55 Samovar), but was never done on great scale. I would also up the smoke dischargers to 2. In addition, an extra 7.62 machinegun was mounted, so the tank should have 2 7.62 machinguns apart from the coax, and no 12.7mm. As for end dates, the T-55 was being taken out of service in the mid to late 80s. none were around in 1993. Therefor unit 051 should be deleted. Unit 053 Tiran 6 and 054 Tiran 6 Blazer unit 053 is a good representation of the T-62 in Israeli service. Only 100 or less were used. No major conversions were made at all. Even the coax mg was the russian one and not as in game(but this is a minute detail) The end date for 053 should be 12/1992. Unit 054 is redundant. While experiments were made, there was no major installment of Blazer on T-62 tanks in the IDF, certainly no change in range finder. AND MOST certainly no TI for the Tiran 6. I suggest deleting unit 054 and keping only 053 with date extended to 12/1992. Next we dive into the fantastic world of merks and their endless developments. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Merkavas 1 and 2
Now, pat has done a lot of work on this. In general the Merkavas in the OOB are p. good representations of reality. However I do have some things I think need changing. The biggest issue is that info is confusing and contradicting as all of these tanks are still in active service(aside from the mk1 which is only in reserve service). Units 055 and 056 Merkava Mk 1 start date for 055 should be 9/79. Also, I don't see the need for two units- suggest to delete 056 and extend date on 055. The difference is only the gun, and since the start date is late 79, I see no issue with having weapon 27(105mm M68 78) as what the Mk 1 starts with. Ammo load out for original Merkava Mk 1 was 62(not 60). This was changed later on. Unit 057 Merkava Mk 1 As mentioned the ammo load for the main gun was later reduced to 54, and should be done in this later unit. This was done to add storage space for the 60mm mortar ammo. Unit 630 Merkava Mk 1 This is the obsolete tank unit for reserve companies. Date should be extended to 2014(future is currently unsure). Main gun ammo reduce to 54. In reality some of these received TI, but this is not an issue, because at the point of getting TI, along with other improvements over the years, they are basically Merkava Mk2b. Units 058 Merkava Mk 2 Should have TI(lol one got missed huh?). Ammo load should be 54 for main. Unit 059 and 060 Merkava Mk2b I think in the name of uniformity with earlier tank variants, should be Renamed Merkava Mk2B. Ammo load should be 54. FCS should be 38(or what ever you guys choose to give the tanks with Nahal Oz- as you recall, the Magach 6M, Magach 7, Shot Brak Or and the Merk 2b all have the same system- superior to the one in Merk 1 but inferior to the one in Magach 6B Gal). 060 dates need to be extended to 2014(current status- will possibly be replaced by Mk 4 this year). Unit 631 Merkava Mk2b- this should have a start date around 1988 as well. An interesting Merkava variant that isn't in the game is Merkava Mk2B Kasag/Batash/Dalet. This is the Mk2b with applique passive and NERA(non explosive reactive armor) suit. This package can be seen in the pics on this thread: http://www.fresh.co.il/vBulletin/sho...d.php?t=156008 *Naturally I have no idea what kind of armor values this justifies(classified), but certainly an increase of 15-20% is warranted for the turret sides. Probably a major hike in turret top protection. A moderate increase in hull front and sides. *The added weight is hardly offset by the engine tweaking(the tanks managed 1,000 horses after some modifications, but not all tanks received these modifications) so these tanks are even slower than the already lazy Mk2B. *The load out for these tanks should be high on HE and HEAT rather than AP, as they are rotated between units serving in Gaza and Lebanon. *This probably would need an icon, the turret shape is quite different as you can see in the pics. *Does not need an obsolete unit, start date should be 9/1997 and end date 2014 for now. *As for naming, the most common term used by tankers was Merkava 2B KASAG(Kav Sagol=Purple Line: a reference to the border with Lebanon). However the terms Merkava 2B Batash and Merkava Mk2D (Dalet) are also correct, the first being used sometimes by tankers and the second being the official designation of the tank. This tank would be specifically relevant to Lebanon and Gaza scenarios in the late 1990s to today. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Merkava 3
My knowledge on these is more limited. However I do have some ideas as to changes that should be made. Unit 061, 062, 063 Merkava Mk3 Three units with the only difference being radio and ammo load out. 061 has 91 radio and 062+063 have 92. 062 and 063 differ only by their ammo loads. In any case all ammo loads are wrong. the correct number is 46 for the main gun and not 50. I suggest keeping 062 and 063 and getting rid of 061. Date for these should be 5/1990-1/1997(When 188th, the only standing MK3 brigade was converted to BAZ). Theoretically the FCS should be lowered to match what I suggested for the Merk 2b and others. However this is not a very good idea in my eyes, as the Mk3 did use the same computer as Mk2b, but had far better turret controls and optics allowing better hits(especially on the move and long range). Unit 632 Merkava Mk 3 ammo for main should be reduced to 46. Dates should be changed to start 1992-3 and end 2020. Units 064, 065 Merkava Mk3 Baz as mentioned, ammo load should be reduced to 54. The armor should be the same as units 061-063, for reasons mentioned below. Icon should be like 061-063, for reasons mentioned below. This is where this gets a little complicated. The best I could figure is that there are 3 different Baz sub-variants: *Mk3 Baz is just the Mk3 with Baz(hence my reservations about the armor rates and icons for 064 and 065) *Mk3 Baz KASAG is MK3 Baz with applique armor(like the Mk2B KASAG previously described here). *Mk 3D Baz- better base armor,applique armor. I am not sure what should be done, as this will consume alot of unit space. If I have to recommend any action, its the addition of only the Mk3D Baz. The armor used for it is similar to the Mk4 armor(in materials), and it is a significant variant(currently 1/3rd of the standing tank fleet). My suggestion on how to add the Mk3D Baz: *Simply copy the CURRENT 064/065 units. They have the correct icon and upped armor compared to the vanilla Mk3. *Make the changes to 064-065 as i suggested, making them a true representation of the original Mk3 Baz. *As all current standing Mk3 units have Mk3Ds, the split in dates should probably be- Mk3 Baz from 1997 to 2002 and Mk3D from 2001 to 2020. It's a mess I know :( To make things worse we need an obsolete tank unit for 064+065 Mk3 Baz(but not for Mk3D, those are all in standing units AFAIK) with dates 1999-2020. I think we should probably skip the different ammo loads considering the already horrid expense in unit space. Unit 066 Merkava 3 Lahat Honestly I still can't find any open source proof this is in service. Non the less ammo load should be reduced further 40 for the main gun to make room for 6 LAHAT missiles in their cases. I originally planned to do the Mk4 in this post as well but I feel like I went down the rabbit hole. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
@Don
Also at this point as this clearly becoming a long undertaking(as expected) is there anything in the format of my posts that needs changing? I have looked forward on the OOB. There are a few dozen things more...Some are minor and major date issues(like decades off), some are units that never existed in the IDF, etc. So this is a long ordeal I just want to make sure it will be easy for you to use this thread.... Amit. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
No, it doesn't seem so, I've only just been looking them over quickly before putting them on the list but all in all it's looks good
Don |
Re: IDF OOB project.
THE LAST TANK
Okey now we get into the Merkava 4...I am aware that alot of work has been done by others here. I do have some ideas though, here they are: Units 067 and 068 Merkava Mk 4 Ammo load should be 50 for main gun. Unit 069 Merkava Mk4b * AFAIK and according to most hebrew sources this should be named Merkava Mk4M (again Meshupar=Improved). *More importantly, the changes made to fit the LAHAT have screwed up the weapons on this unit. The coaxial on Merkava 4, as with all IDF tanks, is the 7.62mm FN-MAG/M240. The 12.7mm is an optional coaxial. If we must choose one, I would go with the real, internal coaxial(this is true for unit 066 as well, I missed it). *ammo load aside from the LAHAT should be increased to 44 total. *I think that a identical unit without the LAHAT should be made. but this is just my opinion. To allow the use of Merk 4 with CIWS but no LAHAT. Two Mk4 units are currently missing: * Merkava Mk4TWMP *Obsolete tank unit for Mk4. Availability should be from ~2006 all the way to 2020. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
APCs
Unit 081 M3 Halftrack This should be around untill the early 1990s. I Saw these in a reserve unit with my own very young but at that time still sharp eyes when I was 3 or 4...So 1992~ they were still around. Suggest new end date of 1993. Unit 572 M3 Halftrack Same goes for this. Unit 083 Bardelass This is the vanilla M113, and still exists(sadly enough for our brave mech infantry) to this day in some standing and reserve units. End date should be 2020 really, we have so many we will never rid of them. Unit 097 Namer MICV RWS This is still not in service AFAIK, and I don't see it happening anytime soon. Specifically the 30mm and Spike...This just is not how IDF infantry like to roll, they would need serious boosts to the ordnance platoons in their battalions as well as a major increase in time spent training with AFVs(they hate AFVs). For the foreseeable future IDF infantry will have nothing larger than the 12.7mm/40mm AGL on its RWS... That is it for today. See you soon:) |
Re: IDF OOB project.
I just have a quick thought here. I tried to get the 60mm Mortars in while researchimg the Turkish M60T which led me back to the MERKAVA. Do we delete tank rounds for what we know is a real life issue (To make room for the 60mm ammo.) when we are game limited to the weapons slots we have availble? I seem to remember when this was brought up I was asked whether we should give up a MG for the 60mm mortar. My answer then was basically keep the MG as it was a better direct support weapon against infantry (I do remember being "coached" to think about it, must have been that Submariner thing? ;)). We might need a game comprimise here as the 60mm mortar cuts across the whole MERKAVA spectrum pretty much.
Ammo loads have always been an issue to some degree depending on sources and have been known to cross the "PITA Line" here at times. Great Work! Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Pat,
I really think the 60mm is best left alone. I have said before, there is no way to model the Merks weapons fully in game. you would need 7 weapon slots: 1)main gun 2)7.62 coax 3)12.7 upper coax 4)TC 7.62mg 5)Loader 7.62 mg(aside from mk4) 6)60mm mortar 7)WP smoke dischargers used as a weapon(major thing against close range inf) It just cant be done. Worse still, the 60mm is not just on merks! Some magachs and some Tirans(!) had them as well, mounted externally. The truth is the 60mm is not meant to be used as a direct fire LOS weapon. it is meant exactly for when you don't want to be in LOS. It cant be done well in game. As far as ammo loads, there is no issue, the ammo loads i specified are accurate to tanks carrying the 60mm and its ammo. Honestly I think the solution for the merkava series should be: Slot 1: Main gun Slot 2: 7.62mm CMG Slot 3: 12.7mm CMG Slot 4: 2X7.62 AAMG/7.62mm AAMG And what do you know, thats the way it is with most of them...If anything I might have an issue with older tanks having 12.7mm AAMGs on them, as the IDF usually(read always) preferred the 0.3 for both commander and loader. Amit. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Amit,
Trust me I fully agree. Just pointing out the fact you recommended a main gun ammo reduction for one of the Merk 1 inputs provided because of the storage requirments to store 60mm mortar rounds unless, I misread the item (I believe it was the 2nd MERK 1 item down.) it just puts a ? on the issue of anyones (That means me as well.) ammo sources that does not specifically break them down by type and weapon for any OOB such issue. So again should we reduce main gun ammo (5 or 6 rounds) for a weapon we can't even "enter" (Slot limitations.) or use? All I'm saying is in our AOR we didn't get the tanks with the mortars and need our AT/HE main gun rounds to meet our tactical needs. Sorry that was the best analogy I could come up with at the moment. ;) Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
no no, you did not misread.
I think that we should use what we think the ammo load is IRL. On the tanks that carry mortar. Just to be as close to RL as possible. Honestly Merks are such powerful units I doubt 4-6 rounds less will unbalance anything. Amit. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Units 100 and 101 Chaparral
*Name should possibly be changed to "Drakon", the IDF name for the SP-Chaparral *Dates should definitely be shortened.The only source I have for this is hebrew wiki(I know, I know), which states: "In April 2003 the 3 Drakon batteries of the 946th Battalion were shut down." A quick Hebrew search found some backup for this, a few forum posts and CVs from people saying they served in that battalion until it was shut down and the vehicles sold to a south american client. I suggest new end date 2003. Units 105 Hovet and 106 Machbet In 2006 the final Vulcan units were shut down, I remember this from my time in service. This is also mentioned in the Hebrew wikipedia and reliable Israeli military forums. I realize this will make a hole in the Israeli OOB, but I am just giving you the info :) Unit 116 Sherman Dozer If we are not going to do a M51 Dozer I think this should at least be extended to match the life span of the M51. Unit 117 Shot Dozer Again, assuming we are not going to do a version for the newer shots, should have end date 2002. Unit 118 Tiran Dozer should match life span of Tiran 5. Unit 119 M728i CEVI dont think this was ever in Israeli service, is there a source that says it was? |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Do all the Mekavas use the Nochri Dalet Mine type Roller System ? If yes I'll fix those Icons that show the plow attached
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Re: IDF OOB project.
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It's been in the files for at least 10 years and it has it's own unique Icon so all I can tell you is someone thought it was but IDK who Don |
Re: IDF OOB project.
I found one reference that says....
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Re: IDF OOB project.
I have this book:
http://www.mheaust.com.au/MHE/Books/IDF1.htm No mention of M728 there... Probably added by the same person who came up with the Israeli M1A1 Abrams...:rolleyes: |
Re: IDF OOB project.
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No argument here just asking out of curiosity, because I've only seen dozers mounted on 105 mm Shermans. |
Re: IDF OOB project.
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Also Don, That is interesting. There is no specimen in Latrun...I have never seen a picture of one in IDF markings...And I do not recall ever hearing from anyone that they used them. In 1982 the IDF used 203mm SPA pieces to blast away buildings... I just don't know. The only thing I can do is ask some old tankers if they ever saw one. I guess keep it for now. Amit |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Generally minefields are defended by infantry/anti-tank weapons rather then armor so the 105mm is a better choice for a mine clearing tank then the 75/76mm.
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Re: IDF OOB project.
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Generally the IDF prefers rollers/plows to dozer blades on its tanks, but here is a pic of a merk 1 with a dozer blade: http://2004.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2004/07/22/669248.jpg Here Puma engineer combat vehicles as well as 2 Nakpadon Heavy APCs and 1 M113 are seen. You can see that one Puma has a Roller and one has a Dozer blade. In other words both were and are in service at the same time. http://2004.uploaded.fresh.co.il/2004/07/22/128059.jpg |
Re: IDF OOB project.
IDF UNIT 119 looks like it can go. The M728 CEV was born into the ARMY in 1965 and died in the GUARD in 2000. There is no evidence to support that this tank was ever exported. These sites usually show that info and a couple reference Hunnicutts book on the Patton series of tanks with for many is considered the "Bible" on the subject. The ARMY recieved about 291 of them until production ceased ~1972.
http://patton-mania.com/IDF_Pattons/idf_pattons.html http://patton-mania.com/M60_Patton/m60_patton.html#M728 CEV http://www.military-today.com/engineering/m728_cev.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...round/m728.htm http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/eng/M728.html http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/cevm728.html Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
The Puma:
Unit 120 Puma Dozer,Unit 130 Puma Nochri,Unit 422 Puma This is the main ARV for the IDF since the early 1990s. All Pumas are capable of carrying troops. Is there a way for the Dozer and Nochri versions to safely carry the troops and retain their mine clearing capability? If so carry capacity should be 8, and not 13(The skeleton crew for this thing is 3, the rest of the machine guns are manned by the sappers riding in it. also we might want to add the CARPET as a weapon. Sure it wont clear mines in game, but IRL it was used as a direct fire weapon many times: http://defense-update.com/news/6702carpet.htm |
Re: IDF OOB project.
I'll look into it. The problem is that unitclass is set up to "carry" passengers on the outside like a tank but we restrict carry on tanks so if it was set up to carry like an APC we could set up APC type vehicles with CC and still restict tanks to zero. However, the US OOB already has the M1132 ESV as a MCV with 109 CC
Don |
Re: IDF OOB project.
A noob question- the only thing that makes the troops protected when they ride an AFV is the 10X carry capacity rather than x?
Never mind just checked the help file and its not:) |
Re: IDF OOB project.
hardcoded
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Re: IDF OOB project.
Yeah I understand...So basically this will require changing the code :( Any chance of that happening or is it loads of work?
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Re: IDF OOB project.
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(Haven't tested it as yet, but the code change was 5 minutes work. I'll just need to put an engineer APC with passengers on the firing range and hose it down with HMG fire to check it works.) Looking at the OOBs, engineer tanks already have 0 carry, and only "Engineer APC" i.e. those engineer tank types with a carry capacity as well as a roller or blade equipment, do. We will still need to give the OOBS a thorough comb through. Now those "Engineering APC" types will not have the pax behave as tank riders when under fire any more, so an engineer APC will be a good way to get some foot engineers forwards to aid the work. Not added to WW2 as yet - but may be if there are engineer APC types found there. We will have to troll the data there to check, but it looks like engineering APC are a post-war thing. Andy |
Re: IDF OOB project.
You guys are awesome.
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Re: IDF OOB project.
All I've come across thus far was...
1. Non-Winch equipped M3 Halftracks carried a roller which laid down a material that allowed the M3 to cross some trenchs of limited width. 2. The SdKfz 251/5 was a designated version typed as an "Assualt Engineer Carrier" still trying to find particulars on this, but my guess is it's more heavily armored. A couple of other types that came up in that search I don't know are in the game (WinSPWW2) are... 3. The SdKfz 251/20 Uhu (Owl). These vehicles were designed in support most notably of specialized units trained in night combat with supporting PANTHER tanks. They were equipped with IR search lights and "other specialized equipment". 4. And finally the BREN "WASP" flame-thrower carrier. If you own the Blu-Ray (Don't know about other formats.) of "A Bridge To Far" at the beginning of the movie (Using actual WWII footage of this and other...) they show 3 or 4 on the move attacking a position. But I feel Andy is right about the "APC" engineer type vehicles, seems more a post war item. Items 1 & 2 are the closest I can find so far. I'll amend the above for the German side the SdKfz 251/5 and 251/7 WILL fit the bill this ref. shows a rendering of the latter but the descriptions of each would to my mind "seal the deal" below. Further down based on my search is info on the UHU/OWL note from it's rendering the night binos that seem to have some kind of tech associated with them mounted on the forward MG. They don't look like typical Naval night search "binos" of the era. Interesting. http://axistanksworldwarii.devhub.co...enpanzerwagen/ http://fallschirmjager.tumblr.com/po...u-sdkfz-251-20 Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Wanted to post this ref as well it notes that the SdKfz 251/20 worked in a Unit of one of these with 6 IR equipped PANTHERS and Infantry with specialized night combat equipped weapons (With VAMPIRE scopes.) to protect the 251/20 UHU, Range of it's IR Searchlight was 1.5km.
The troops were carried in the SdKfz 251/21 FALKE (See REF 1 from previous post. Also these were IR equipped as well.) These units/battle groups saw combat on both fronts from 1944 on. http://www.pietvanhees.nl/251/251-20.htm http://www.pietvanhees.nl/251/infrared.htm http://www.pietvanhees.nl/251/vampire.htm http://www.achtungpanzer.com/german-...heinwerfer.htm Sorry I strayed with this last, but can you imagine if they had more of these units/battle groups? Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
Is the "doghouse" on the Nagmachon fixed ? I assume it is but I thought I'd ask. Also, still waiting for an answer to post #26
Don |
Re: IDF OOB project.
2 Attachment(s)
Don,
Until Amit gets back to you this is what I found in the short term. Appears the KMT-4 and NOCHRI DALET are the same, with that in mind I got the M60A1 Mag'ach BLAZER & Mag'ach 6A (Both pictured below.), MERKAVA Mk II (Seems all types.) and the MERKAVA Mk III BAZ (Strange but this is the only variant I could confirm in the Mk III) and nothing came up for the Mk IV. Of course the PUMA is already in the OOB. http://www.online-utility.org/image/...e=Merkava+tank Pics: Attachment 12644 Attachment 12645 Regards, Pat |
Re: IDF OOB project.
OK thanks. I've prepared revised Icons that show rollers rather than plows on the Merks
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Re: IDF OOB project.
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Start date was 1969 with an end date of 12/71 all you tell me is to change the start date to 10 years later but nothing about end date......should I just guess it's 10 years later as well ? Also you give me unit 23 start date but nothing about 24 and if the start date is 1979 then the gun ( ammo ) should be upgraded to w27 so this fix created more questions than it solved Don |
Re: IDF OOB project.
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Could you give me a hint how long they should be kept in service ?? |
Re: IDF OOB project.
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so what happens to unit 32....... is it OK ? I don't think so based on the changes you asked for with the others |
Re: IDF OOB project.
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Understand RE Tiran units should have the same moral and exp modifier and I also understand your " big if " reservations about -5 but the Israeli OOB already has one of the highest ratings. Do you REALLY think reservists are no different than regular units ? Don |
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