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Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
Minor corrections and suggestions to Soviet OOB:
There is an inconsistency with how the machine gun turrets are modelled: T-28 (Unit 020 etc.) has BMG's, but T-35 (Unit 021 etc) has TMGs. I think the latter is more closer to the truth (the turrets had hatches with enabled to gunner to view outside if needed), but at least it should be consistent. Units 001, 002, 003, 095, 101 etc. see the discussion about armor values in the "Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units" thread. In addition, many BT-7a tanks had an AAMG as well. Unit 020 T-28 M1938: see the thread mentioned above for armor protection. Also, many had an AAMG mount, so an additional variant with a DT AAMG could be added. The MG turret weapons could be combined to a single weapon similar to Unit 021 to allow adding of the AAMG. Unit 006 T-40: suggest giving the Weapon 152 AP Pen value 2 to simulate the B-32 API bullet (penetration about 20mm at 100 meters), and transferring at least 40 rounds to AP. Further suggest making a new variant starting Jan 1942 with Sabot, and of course also add Sabot value to Weapon 152 with Penetration 3. This is to simulate the tungsten-core BS (also called BS-41) API bullet, which was a 12.7mm version of the bullet used with the 14.5mm ATRs. The BS was NOT an APCR projectile but a conventional AP bullet with tungsten-carbide core instead of hardened steel core, so it had the same muzzle velocity and effective range (actually slightly better) as normal steel core AP bullets (increased weight of the projectile was compensated by adding more propellant). Unit 007 T-60 M1941 etc.: the 20mm ammo count was 780 rounds, so 75 engagements is on the low side. Unit 008 T-70 M1942 etc: the original T-70, which this is supposed to be, carried only 70 rounds for the 45mm gun. The M1943 carried 94. Unit 035 SU-122: according to http://www.battlefield.ru/sp-guns-specs.html carried 40 rounds for the howitzer. HEAT became available only in May 1943 according to the same website. Unit 335 T-40S: the correct name for this tank would be T-40 "030" or T-30. The T-40S had the same armament as the original T-40, but deleted amphibious capability. Production of the T-40S started a couple of months earlier than T-30. Armor was not increased as such (construction was changed to all welded), so it should be the same as Unit 006 for all T-40 variants. Speed should also be the same. All of these tanks were officially called just T-40; the "030" was the factory index of a T-40 with a 20mm TNSh AC. T-30 seems to have been the most popular contemporary name for this variant. T-40S is an unofficial post-WW2 designation. Ammunition load was 750 rounds of 20mm ammo, so even with longish 7.5 round bursts we would get 75 "engagements" (currently only 44). More standard 5 round bursts would give 150 engagements. Weapon 011 37mm ZP obr 39: Armor penetration 51mm at 300 meters, so at least 6 in game terms. (http://www.battlefield.ru/61k/stranitsa-2.html) Weapon 37mm L46 B-3: a copy of the 3,7 cm PaK 35/35, so AP Pen 4 is implausibly low. See also: http://www.battlefield.ru/b3-1930.html, which would indicate at least 50mm penetration at 100 meters. The PaK 35/36 was not such a high tech gun that the Soviets could have somehow failed in copying it (or its ammo). Weapon 033 76.2mm obr 39: max. range 13,290 meters (203) Weapon 036 76mm obr 00/02: max. range 8,800 meters (176) Weapon 037 76mm obr 02/30: max. range 13,500 meters (204), assuming L/40 version. The earlier L/30 version, still used in WW2, had a max. range of 10,600 meters (201) Weapons 048 & 050: almost same muzzle velocity, same ammunition, same penetration. The AP Pen 8 given to L-11 is probably closer to the truth. Weapon 054 76mm L51 obr 36: max. range 13,500-14,000 meters, 204 in game terms, anyways. Weapon 059 107mm M1910/30: max. range about 16 km (206). Weapon 060 76.2mm M1942 FG: max. range 13,290 meters (203) Weapon 068 100mm D10 Gun: AP Pen 16, while other Soviet 100mm guns have 18. The 100mm ammunition did improve after the war, but according to http://www.battlefield.ru/d10/stranitsa-2.html the basic BR-412 could already penetrate much more than 160mm at muzzle (about 175mm extrapolated). Weapon 071 105mm obr 37 IG: judging from the image of Unit 356, this is a captured 10,5 cm leFH 18M. The max. range of that piece was 12,325 meters (202). It isn't available as off-map artillery in the current OOB, but better to correct it anyways. Weapon 074 122mm obr 10/30: max. range 8,900 meters (178) Weapon 081 152mm L32ML-20S: penetration with (S)APHE ammunition about 135mm (14) at 100 meters, slightly more with APCB available since late 1944. I don't know if the APCB penetration is enough for AP Pen 15 in the game. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/152_mm_...37_%28ML-20%29 Weapon 084 Satchel Charge: has unrealistically high WH Size, HE Pen and HE Kill for a charge carried by hand. Compare to German OOB Weapon 229. Weapon 136 PTRD obr 41 ATR: had sights only up to 1000 meters. However, ballistics were the same as PTRS (Weapon 143). It already has a lower accuracy than barrel length (1350mm) would give it, so in my opinion you can give it the same range as PTRS. Giving them different ranges makes no sense and neither does the current range 14 (see below). Weapon 143 PTRS obr 41 ATR: had adjustable sights up to 1,500 meters (30). Current range 14 also means that penetration beyond 250 meters is unrealistically low (ballistically the 14.5mm bullets were/are superior to 12.7mm bullets). Weapon 210 25mm ZP obr 40: muzzle velocity was 900 m/s, so AP Pen 2 is unrealistically low. Although I have no penetration test data for this gun, it is pretty safe and quite conservative to assume AP Pen 4 with that kind of MV and 25mm projectile. Suggestion: add 152mm M1909/30 Howitzer (name could be 152mm obr 09/30) and corresponding on map units. This was the most numerous 152mm howitzer of the Red Army almost until the end of the war. Max. range 9,500 meters by Jaeger Platoon (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm), 8,850m by Wikipedia. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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This unit indeed should be named T-30, which was semi-official designation, used sometimes also in the army and factory documents. However, increased armour is correct - "030" index was connected just with armour strengthened to 15mm and some minor improvements, that entered production from around 8/41. Actually it should be given armour 2 also at hull rear - it was 13 mm, lightly sloped. Part of "030" tanks were produced with DShK MG, only part were given 20mm gun from late August, although it was initially unreliable and their production was low. Dates are correct then Part of them had radio - say 21 or 31 (now 01). There should be also added T-40S as a Light Tank, armed with DshK, like unit 006, but without swimming capability - produced from late July 41. It should be available in 8/41-12/42. (A drawing in this book suggests, that T-40S had strengthened amour as well, to lightly sloped 13mm from all sides, although there's no such clear mention in a text - IMHO it should be strengthened to 2 to represent also DShK-armed T-30s). Also part of original 006 T-40 were quipped with radio - it should have some 21-31 of radio chance. By the way, a front armour 2 might be too big - it was 9 mm sloped at 30deg from vertical. Michal |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
T-26 family:
T-26 in all its mutations has too much frontal armour 3 - it was only 15 mm, close to vertical, the same for turret's front. Only in model 1939 it was raised to 15-20mm, very slightly sloped, but, according to a Russian monograph, a protection remained roughly the same, because instead of cemented plates there were homogeneous plates used. The same for other users, like Spain. 004 T-26 M1933s (variant with AAMG) - AAMG on standarized P-40 mounting was accepted in 1937 only (1/35). "s" in M1933s is redundant - unless it's supposed to indicate AAMG. It could be marked with "P-40", or maybe "+"?. A problem with AAMGs on T-26s and T-28s and some other tanks is, that only part of tanks were equipped with them, and in case of T-26 they are generally not seen on photos, apart from photos from tests... Pity, that there's no magic way of randomizing AAMG presence. 176 T-26TU M1931 - twin-turret tanks weren't armed with 12.7mm TMG (Russian sources don't mention such armament) - and DShK itself was developed in 1938 only. It could be changed to so-called T-26 M1932 with short-barrel PS-1 37mm (Hotchkiss-based) gun and MG. I can't find gun specifications at the moment, but a good approximation should be French 37mm SA18, with penetration 3 and range 30 - only it should keep its penetration through all the range (it had longer barrel, and probably more modern rounds). Or is it weapon #12 37mm PP obr 15R, used on MS tank? There were 222 rounds carried. Correct picture is 19697. It was available from spring 1932 - I believe they were extinct by some 1938 (there is however one photo from 1937) Hull rear armour was the same 13 or 15 mm, as other sides (now 1) There were also a handful of twin-turret tanks made (20-30?) with longer 37mm B-3 gun (weapon #14) - used in around 1932-1935. Twin-turret gun tanks constituted only some 1/4 of twin-turret tanks, so maybe it's worth to create them as separate class and create mixed units with gun tank and twin-turret light tanks? (T-26 M1931 is the only class 12 Light Tank available in this period). 222 T-26 M1931 - hull rear armour on twin-turret tanks was the same 13 or 15 mm, as other sides (now 1) Standard tanks without rear MG had 122 gun rounds (now 100) 224 T-26 M1933 - it was produced only from summer 33 - not earlier, than 9/33 (now 3/33 - a date of prototype tests) 337 T-26 M1937s - Kolomiets' book recognizes it as "model 1938". Radio chance should be more - some 20 (now 10), since more tanks had radio by then, although M1938 itself was not numerous transitional model (code 1) 338 T-26 M1939 - gun ammo was even 186 (165 had tanks with radio). They remained in use in small quantities on some theatres until the end of war, even against Japan - although there should be made another entry, so that it's not chosen by the AI instead of T-34. Radio chance should be more - some 20. In official documents they were known as T-26-1 - maybe call them T-26-1 M1939? 517 T-26 M1939+ - might be called T-26E (no official designation, but E was commonly used for Russian "ekranirovanny" or "s ekranami"). First were made and used in combat in 2/40 (now 4/41). There are knowns photos from combat in 2/44 (now ends at 12/42) Hull sides and turret sides were also strengthened with some 20 mm plates (possibly even 30-40mm plates were sometimes used) . |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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Therefore, IMO AAMG variants should have radio x1, and there should be created plain T-26 M1939 with radio x0 (M1938 was rare anyway, so AAMG model with x1 is enough). Michal |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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The front hull armor value for the T-26 is somewhat of a problem. Most of it is close to vertical with 15mm plate, but the middle part is 7mm at 80 degrees (40 mm penetration path) and the lowest part (impossible to hit with AT guns, but still possible with ATRs) is 15mm at 62 degrees (32mm penetration path). Whether these constitute enough of the frontal surface to increase it to Armor Value 3 in game terms is not clear. The turret on the other hand is round, and so is the gun mantlet, or since M1938 most of the turret frontal area consists of the large rounded gun mantlet. It's probably the rounding that made the designers of the OOB to give it Armor Value 3. If that is really warranted or not is again not clear. About the T-26E: there does not seem to have been a real standard for this upgrade. Finnish experience with them indicates that they were very under-powered and unreliable. Consequently the Finnish army never up-armored their T-26s in a similar manner (unlike the Finnish T-28s which were all upgraded to T-28E standard). There is no way to model mechanical unreliability in the game, but if armor is added from the current rather modest upgrade, the speed should be cut down even more. Concerning AAMG: I agree that most of the time T-26s did not have the AAMG fitted. There is really no other way to do model that in the game than to make two different variants and give the AAMG variant radio code x1 so that the AI does not pick them very often. Human players can still do so if they wish to, and there's really nothing wrong with that. The AAMG seems to have been a little more common with the T-28 M1938 that with the T-26, but still not universally fitted. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
As for the radios, they weren't reserved for commander's tanks. According to Bariatynski, there were made 4102 single-turret tanks without radio and 4034 with radio, and their output was roughly even from 1934. This indicates, that it could be even more, than radio=20.
BTW: in 1018 single-turret tanks without radio produced in 1940, 208 had AAMGs (there are specific data available for 1940 only). As for armour - well, 7mm plate at 80 degrees may cause a bullet bounce, but it seems to me, it is not equal to 40mm... If we keep 3, than I want the same for 7TP and Vickers ;) As the T-26E: I agree, that a speed could be cut down even more (there is no precise data, but some 7-8 looks correct). And it rather should have no AAMG. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
just one minor correction
343 Stalinezs - the name should be 'Stalinets' |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
1 Attachment(s)
Just do like to propose adding of some small AA weapons in soviet OOB & allies like LWP and Czechoslovakia. I add atachment with jpg and lbm for proposed units
Unit 191 DShK AAMG New Picture DShK AA single.lbm for replace drawing New Unit DShK AAMG Triple Three MG DShk on inside frame which can rotate similar to western AA guns used after Normandy invasion New Unit Gaz-AA DShK AAMG Single Dshk installed on truck from 1943 looks like that was one of standard installations of this MG for AA protection in second half of war New Unit Maxim AAMG single Single Maxim MG ready for AA fire in my opinion by looking on uniforms of soldiers on one photo this was earliest deployment of this MG to AA duties since beginning and by compartment with another photo I suggest that was common well until end of the war and meaby even longer as well as maxims where in use. New Unit Maxim AAMG double Double variant may be ancestor of of famous quadruple and as we can see on one of the photos was also in use Unit 568 Maxim AAMG double There is nice photo for quadruple maxim for replace drawing Unit 39 GAZ AAMG There is also nice new photo from Red Square with solders in uniforms and helmets from pre war times Unit new GAZ MM 25mm Photo is from Vyborg area from 1944 so this 25-mm gun 72-K was well in use until end of the war and even longer guns itself until around 1955. Production of this vehicles with 25mm gun started in 1941 probably after German invasion and around 200 was made according to source http://www.wio.ru/galgrnd/flak/spflak.htm Unit 347 & 384 25mm 1940 72-K Manufactured until end of 1944 in big number 4067 pieces. Was in service long after the war until 1955 there where two variants lighter manufactured from 1940 to 1943 without shield and after 1943 with front shield. In Polish LWP this guns was interdicted in 1944 and used together with 37mm gun. Ammo after war was also manufactured in Yugoslavia and was delivered to soviet satellites in Eastern Europe, Africa and Middle East Just do like to propose add armour for heavier unit and change date of availability. Unit new 25mm 1944 94-KM Double 25mm 1940 build inside a frame of 37mm gun production start in 1944 12 was build and finish 1945 when 225 was build. Totally 337 was constructed difference are guns build on cars chassis. Is possible that ground version was with shield and on truck chassis without source for truck based version http://www.wio.ru/galgrnd/flak/spflak.htm Unit 379 76.2 mm AA 1938 Better photo of this 1938 version in ground fire position photo is from Stalingrad Unit new YAG-10 with 76.2mm AA gun They were build in 1933 in small number only 61 but were used in Moscow defence. Based on heavy truck Yag |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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(Armour ratings being only used for vehicles and fortifications.) |
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Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
Can anyone confirm the info found here
http://www.soviethammer.net/blog/category/red-army/ that Soviet Light tank coys were 8 tanks in 1941 . They also show the Hvy co as 5 tanks and it seems to me we've been to this dance before HOWEVER........... this *may* refer to a 1941 tank battalion ONLY ( by the text this seems to be the case ) ........... this may have been a temporary formation structure or it may have lasted for awhile. If anyone feels up to digging around let me know what you find out. It probably helps if the search is done in Russian. It may be that this is just to illustrate how dire things had become in 1941 and this is just to show a "typical" formation not an official formation structure. They weren't exactly swimming in t-34's in Dec 1941 Ah !.... thinking "Tank Brigade" from 10/41 - 5/42 might cover this well enough. That gets through the winter of 41 |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
According to http://art-of-tactic.com/ru/istorich...zvod_1941_goda a platoon (vzvod) in 1941 had 5 tanks in case of light and medium tanks and 3 tanks in case of heavy or flamethrower or amphib tanks.
A company should have 2 or 3 platoons. Other source (Magnuski) writes about 15 T-26 in company from 1936 and 17 T-26 from 1938. There are schemes from 2/41 of: - a heavy tank co, with 3 x 3 +1 tanks (10) http://shot.qip.ru/003M7J-2008a0M/ - a medium tank co, with 3 x 5 +1 tanks (16) http://shot.qip.ru/003M7J-2008a0N/ My educated guess is, that the units should be same size - until heavy losses at least. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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That might have something to do with the two being entirely different weapons. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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A 6 kg satchel charge had about as much HE as a 155mm artillery shell, but no fragmentation effect to speak of. 155mm HE shell has HE kill 21, so HE kill 20 for the satchel charge is way out there, at least 2x too effective. WH size 10 is also bigger than the 155mm shell (8). Penetration 18 is also excessive by a factor of two -- 155mm HE shell has only 4 (which is actually a bit low). I don't know what size of satchel charge the SPWW2 weapon data is based upon, but in practice about 5-6 kg is the max that a normal man can throw any distance. If a much larger charge is used, the user will be within the blast radius and the whole thing becomes a Japanese pole mine type suicide weapon. I have read that up to 10 kg charges were sometimes used, but they had to be placed rather than thrown and had to have a longish time fuze, and were therefore quite impractical as AT weapons. They were also unnecessary, I might add; Finnish experience showed that a 6 kg TNT satchel charge could destroy even heavy tanks (IS-2) fairly consistently if placed on thinner top armor. Jaeger Platoon's writeup on satchel charges: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/OTHER_AT_WEAPONS1.htm Soviet satchel charges used for AT purposes were in most ways similar to the Finnish ones. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
So what exactly does that have to do with you comparing two different weapons then complaining they are different ? Satchel charges have and have had the same stats for all nations in both games with only one minor variation for years so if you want to compare the Soviet satchel charge and the German one they you have to look at weapon #84 in both. ( and then you will find the one minor variation :shock:) . The stats as they stand have done what we want it to do in the game for years without comment until now. I have acknowledged you appear to have a different opinion
Don |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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Engineers can use them as hastily placed charges vs wooden bridges, about a 1 in 10 chance of success I would guess. For a properly placed charge buy something from the demolition formation, you can then set it off when desired to though success is not certain. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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Motorized and tank divisions in June 1941 TOE have 10 tanks in heavy company, 17 tanks in medium company, 17 tanks in light company and 12 tanks in flamethrower company (3 gun tanks plus 9 flamethrower tanks). Already in July 1941 division organisation was reviewed, and all tank companies (light, medium and heavy) streamlined to 10 tanks per company. Flamethrower tanks no longer seem to make an appearance on this divisional organisation. Then in August 1941 TOE for tank brigades was issued. This time heavy companies were reduced to 7 tanks each, while light company and medium company remained at 10 tanks per company. Revised tank brigade TOE was issued in December 1941, matching the one given in the link above. In this TOE light company contains 8 tanks (2 in HQ plus two platoons of 3 tanks each), medium company contains 10 tanks (1 in HQ plus three platoons of 3 tanks each) and heavy company contains 5 tanks (1 in HQ plus two platoons of 2). Both of the tank battalions in brigade contained one each of light, medium and heavy company, but the battalion HQ had no tanks at all, with battalion commander needing to get around on a radio truck! Next major tank brigade reorganisation takes place in July 1942. This time both light and medium companies are standardised at 10 tanks each, battalion commanders are given their personal tanks, and heavy tanks no more show up in TOE. In November 1943 TOE also light tanks disappear from tank brigade TOE, which from then on consists only of medium tank companies (10 tanks each). Besides tank brigades, there were also separate tank battalions established. August 1941 version features two light companies (10 tanks each), medium company (7 tanks) and battalion HQ (2 medium tanks). Revised TOE issued in November 1941 featured two light companies (10 tanks each), medium company (10 tanks), heavy company (5 tanks) and battalion HQ (1 medium tanks) September 1942 saw introduction of tank regiment, employed as separate formation or as part of mechanised corps. In this TOE light companies are 16 tanks each (1 in HQ and three platoons of 5 tanks each) and medium companies 11 tanks each (2 in HQ plus three platoons of 3). In January 1943 this is reduced to 7 tanks per light company (1 in HQ plus two platoons of 3 tanks each) and 10 tanks per medium company. Guards heavy breakthrough regiments, consisting of only heavy tanks, start appearing in October 1942. In case you actually managed to read this far, I would like to recommend having another hearty cup of vodka. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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[Besides the tank battalions, November 1943 tank brigade also featured motorised SMG battalion, AAMG company and the usual assortment of rear echelon supply, maintenance and administrative assets.] |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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but someone else, a fan obviously, wrote the PTRS write up "The 14.5 mm armour-piercing bullet has a muzzle velocity of 1013 m/s and devastating ballistics. It can penetrate an armour plate up to 40 mm thick at a distance of 100 meters" and it also claims the effective range against armour vehicles is 800m . Even at the current range your best AP pen could go as high as 5 for PBR and stay at 4 all the way to 250 yards which by all accounts this would be unrealistically HIGH and increasing the range beyond what we have now only pushes that unrealistically high potential penetration even further so while the accuracy we have now is too low and will be adjusted there is no justification for increasing the range to widen the potential 4 pen zone even further than it is now Edit........ as for "had adjustable sights up to 1,500 meters ".... that's nice. The Lee Enfield had adjustable sights up to 1300 yards and the 98k has sights that go to 2000m so how high the adjustable sights can be adjusted is worthless information in game terms and in real life Don |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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However, light armored cars and APC halftracks had armor only against rifle caliber ball bullets and ATRs were useful against them at much greater ranges. Not to mention unarmored vehicles. English language sources sometimes have a poor understanding of these finer points, since the only ATR used by the Western Allies was the Boys, which unfortunately was also one of the least effective ones, and also suffered somewhat from the choice of sights (fixed sights to 300/500 yards and later only to 300 yards). Especially the 20mm ATRs were actually more like man-portable light AT guns and the Germans even designated the 20mm Solothurn as such (official designation was 2,0 cm PaK). The Soviet 14.5mm ATRs on the other hand replicated the ballistic performance of the 20mm ATRs on a lighter package (especially the PTRS) thanks to the use of tungsten-core bullets. Well, not all of the performance: the behind-the-armor effects of 14.5mm bullets were noticeably inferior to 20mm projectiles. Quote:
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http://www.russianammo.org/Russian_A...e_145mm.html#4 I think you are quoting the maximum possible AP penetration above, which Andy has said one can pretty much ignore, since it is so unlikely. With current range the normal penetration at 550 meters is 0, which like I wrote, clearly does not make any sense in light of available data and ballistics science. The 14.5mm bullets were not high drag APCR projectiles! Quote:
As for ATRs, they were supposed to target vehicles, which are rather bigger targets than even standing soldiers. ATR bullets also had better external ballistics (flatter trajectory i.e. lower bullet drop) than normal rifle bullets, which meant that errors in evaluating the range were not as serious. So while I agree that a setting of 1,500 meters might be slightly optimistic without a telescopic sight, a fact remains that hitting vehicular targets at 1000+ meters was certainly possible for an experienced user. |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
Promised suggestions for the Soviet OOB (I know, that you'd prefer, that I wouldn't keep the promise this time, but I'll limit myself comparing with my notes anyway :) )
The list may seem somehow long, but they are mostly easy and quick to apply. If they're not - leave them. 017 T-28 M1932, 020 T-28 M1938, 225 T-28e M1939, 544 T-28e M1939 - they have swapped pictures. Proper picture for longer L-10 gun tanks (20, 225, 544) is 25592. Proper picture for short KT-28 gun variant could be 076, but it shows a variant with KT-28 and armour screens in fact (which BTW could be added) - while 017 has standard armour. I'm attaching a parade photo with standard armour. 017 with short gun and standard armour was definitely used after 12/38 still (some 1942?). Same for a screened variant. 020 with L10 gun should have exactly the same armour, as standard 017 T-28 with KT-28 (T-28 armour issue was discussed in the Finnish thread). 021, 651 T-35 M1939 - picture shows T-35 prototype. M1939 should have conical turrets (I'm attaching a proposal) 028 Valentine VII - photo is Valentine 6pdr, I'm attaching 2pdr. Same for 312, 539 041 BA-10 - crew should be 4 (2). According to a book on medium AC by M. Kolomiets, ammo for gun was 49 (now 34). 047 45mm L46 AT-Gun - better picture is 00049 - current 99, used by the Finnish, has atypical camo. 052 76.2mm 02 Hwtzr - it should have a single-tail icon, best would be 2111 BTW: if it wasn't corrected in weapons' ranges thread, the weapon was designated only "obr.02", not 00/02 (and there should be "." after "obr" - it's an abbreviation). 058 SG43 MMG [2] - photo 14124 is Maxim. Correct is eg.108 or 29370 Same for 442,612 BTW: I won't correct Polish LWP oob now, but all SG43 there have DShK picture. 059 DShK HMG [2] - the photo 32006 is tank version, not infantry HMG. Correct is eg. 29371. Same for 444, 613 and Hungary and Yugoslavia using DShK. 074 BM-8 Katyusha - according to Russian books, produced from 8/41, used in combat maybe month-two later (now 1/42). Truck variant on ZiS-6 had 36 rockets (now 24) (BM-8-36), and late war one from 1942 on US trucks - even 48 (BM-8-48). 089 ZSU-M17 - I'm attaching a Soviet photo (without original, but I've made it long ago). 092 M3A1 Scout Car - delivered from 1942 (I haven't found info when exactly) (now 3/43). They were armed in Soviet service with original .50 and .30 Browning, not DShK and DT. Most had no PTRD - maybe there should be two units made. 93 M29 Weasel - I could not find any mention on M29 in Russian sources to be delivered. (On the other hand, the DUKW was). 94 FA-I - serial production started only in 2/33 (now 1/30) (only in 1932 a prototype was made). Used until 1942 at least (now 8/41). I'm attaching a photo of Soviet cars. Changing its availability would demand creation of some earlier armoured car - most typical early one was BA-27. BA-27: quite good icon is 167, armament like 170 MS-1/T-18 tank (40 rounds); armour 1 all around (8mm); size 3; speed 45 km/h; crew 4; used 1/30-end of 1941. I'm attaching a picture. 157 Partisan MG - does MG-34 in the first place mean, that this unit has 8 MGs? 169, 485 KV-II - there was no KV-II with 122mm howitzer - all had 152 mm. These early ones should differ from "KV-IIB" by a lack of BMG. They also had a turret with a slanted front, but there's no information, if they were differences in protection (BTW: the Russians invariably write the name: KV-2, and KV-II"B" is a German designation). Actually, first ones were shipped to Finland in 3/40. 170 MS-1/T-18 171 MS - both should have the same name (preferably MS-1/T-18) and same armament, with CMG. There was only from 96 to 104 rounds for a gun in different models (now 120+40) Picture 190 shows some later prototype with different chassis, proper one is 188. 177 T-18m - T-18M remained only a prototype. 45mm gun was fitted only to immobile tanks used as bunkers. 181 BT-7 M1935 - picture shows later M.1937 with conical turret. Correct is 27830 or 27831, although they're drawings. 196 76mm L51 AT-Gun - the picture 14100 seems to be short 76mm M1927 infantry gun. Correct one for ZiS-3 is 101, possibly 14139 as 282 unit (although there are no details seen). ZiS-3 was not L/51, but L/41. Same for unit 281 230 Ammo truck - picture is WWI Italian Fiat, better would be typical Zis-5 165 254 LMG Section - since it's heavy infantry, does MG in first three slots mean, that it has 10+1+1 LMgs?.. 273 Para SG43 MMGs - picture shows Mamim 282 76.2mm 42 Hwtzr - I suggest name 76.2mm ZiS-3 FG. 288 SU-76P - according to a Russian book on T-26, it had no official designation, but it was usually known in documents as "SU-T-26 or SU-26, T-26-SU, or just SU-76" (without P, but it would cause confusion with later SU-76 SP-gun). It should have radio code 1, since it was a non-standard vehicle, used during Leningrad's defence only. Some were used as long, as until 1944 (maybe after advent of more typical vehicles, it should have radio code 3?). According to http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%...D0%90%D0%A3%29 SU-26 was official designation, changed to SU-76P in 1943, but the last info is questioned and lacks source. 310 BA-3 - 11/32 was a scheduled month of completing the prototype, which was not kept. Serial production started only in 10/34 311 BA-6 - serial production started only in beginning of 1936 (now 11/35) (the prototype was made in late 1935). 343 Stalinets - it wasn't armoured S-65 was manufactured from 1937 (now it starts at 1/39). S-60 was manufactured even earlier, but I don't know when the army started to use them. 344 Boys Carrier - it should have some AAMG as well, eg Bren. The photo shows British camo and soldiers. I've attached a Soviet one. Same for unit 467. Later they were seen also with PTRD. BTW: carriers were mostly known as Mk.I or Mk.I Universal in Soviet documents. 347 25mm AA-Gun - it's some Western gun on a photo, without wheeled carriage. I'm attaching a photo. 352 76.2mm obr36 IG - long F-22 divisional gun rather wasn't used as infantry gun after the war, especially, that their rate of extinction was high... IMO it should be removed (or replaced in next season with 76.2mm obr43 IG (photo 29367, range 4200 m - in fact it was worse, than old obr27 IG (8500m), only lighter) 353 76.2mm 36 Hwtzr - it was produced from late 1936 (might enter service in 1937) - now starts at 11/39. Same for 357. 356 105mm obr 37 IG - available Russian books on WW2 artillery don't mention such gun. 366, 367 122mm 31 Hwtzr - it was a gun, not howitzer - better name would be "122mm obr31 gun" or "122mm 31/37 gun" or "122mm A-19 gun". Icon should have split trail (2123 with proper long barrel, or 2103). In fact, in 1933 only 3 experimental guns were made, and first series of 27 guns was made in 1935 (now 6/33) (it concerns original obr.31 gun, obr.31/37 was produced from 1937, but there's no difference in game terms) 370 122mm 38 Hwtzr - icon should have split trail (German one uses 59) 375, 400 37mm L40 AT-Gun - there were only 506 guns in 1936, and they were being replaced by 45mm guns, so it's unlikely, that any survived in combat units after 1941, maximum 1942 (now 12/45). BTW, according to Russian sources it was L/45 gun. Probably a correct photo is 28050 (unless it's a Japanese gun, but it looks good anyway), or I'm attaching other photo. 410 Yak-3 Ubiytsa - I've never seen in Russian sources nickname "Ubiytsa" ("killer"), also Google don't indicate such Russian name in connection with Yak-3 412 P-39Q Britchik - picture is P-63 (picture of Soviet P-39 is 14020, used by unit 85) 429 G-5 - picture is Italian WWI MAS torpedo boat. I'm attaching a proposal, also with rockets. 463, 464 BA-20 - according to Russian books, a production started only in 7/1936 (now 10/35). They were sure used much longer as armoured cars (now 12/41) - produced until 7/42, and over 1500 were made. Some survived until the war with Japan. Speed is quoted as 90 km/h (now 25). Photo is actually Finnish FAI (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FAI_1.jpg ) - I'm attaching a proposal. 508, 509 Partisan MG - have multiplied MGs? 538 M3 s - redundant space (M3s or M3S) 586 STZ-5 - produced from 1937, mass from 1939 (now 10/41) 588 76.2mm K/DPR RG - a picture is actually 65mm prototype RPG - photos are here: http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_bpk.htm . Correct abbreviation for recoilless gun is DRP (DRP K would be better order), but in fact it had a designation BPK (battalion gun of Kurchevsky). 593 OT-27 - according to a Russian book, produced from late 1932 (now 6/35). It had 32-36 l of mixture (enough for 30 shots or 28 seconds). It also should have DT BMG. 807 T-5 - might be called T-5 Pantera - a manual was titled: 'T-V ("Pantera")' (or "Pantyera", or "Pantiera", depending on transcription). 808 T-6 - might be called T-6 Tigr. Used in combat at least from 1/44 (now 3/44) [book by M.Kolomiets on captured vehicles] 809 T-38(t) - they were known as Praga (according to a Soviet wartime manual) BTW: Stug was usually known as Artshturm in documents [Kolomiets book] (Maybe "Artshturm III F"?) That's all as for the Soviets this season I guess... Michal |
Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
1 Attachment(s)
Pictures. Also captured German vehicles.
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Re: Soviet OOB11 corrections and suggestions
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