Helicopter armor
 

Without going into the black-box stuff that you can't legally talk about, what can you tell me about how helicopter armor is supposed to work? I ask because losing Hinds against 7.62mm AA guns at silly ranges is becoming an almost-regular occurrence, and I've no doub t that if I played as the US and deployed Apaches more often I'd see them retreat from small-caliber hits too. IRL the Hind and the Apache could easily ignore anything less than .50cal, especially to the front and at long ranges, which presumably is what the armor 2 rating is supposed to represent, but the only time I think the armor worked as intended was against a long-range hit where the heli was indicated hit but took no damage. (And even then that could have been a lucky damage roll.)

If helicopter armor is supposed to defend against small-caliber threats consistently--as it does in reality, since plinking at a Hind or an Apache with a PKM is a fool's errand--I suspect the code may need some reworking. Conversely, if the armor function is working as intended, then may I suggest that armored gunships at least don't retreat unless they're down to a certain amount of HP? Damn pilots over at Army Aviation are currently getting some very angry messages from frontline soldiers wondering why their gunship support turned tail and ran from a few M240 hits.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Ya, I know what you mean, same thing happens to me too. It's like they ain't even flying. How they get to point A to point B without running is beyond me. Very aggravating. Maybe I should move them the entire distance in one long move, instead of one hex multiple times per move. If their moved one hex multiple times, maybe their considered moving slow with a lot of hoovering (easy targets). Either I need a lot more practice using them or there's something wrong with the code. I think their a waste of buy points.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I've noted this down on the list

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Not used helos for a while but just a couple of questions & observations.

Not disputing armor rating vs small arms fire may need tweaking.
Some do stand a pretty good chance of coming off unscathed by point blank small arms fire as in run up to a hidden squad.

What is taking them down I am guessing APC mounted weapons if 7.62mm so lots of fire at 2-3% hit chance?
Really asking dedicated AA with a hit chance at least in double figures or the above.

I am no pilot but a couple of thoughts on behaviour upon receiving anything much more than rifle fire.
Unless I am extremely experienced I would guess receiving fire from any automatic weapon like a MG would have me running for cover. Good enough to decide sounds like being peppered by a LMG not a 0.5cal or autocannon so we will ignore it briefly. I still would not proceed to stay in its sights for long just in case it gets lucky.
Don't want to test the autogiro feature & my superior would be pissed at my ineptness for wrecking a multimillion dollar machine.

Dion
They are very powerful on maps with cover but they are expensive so if you take fire about the only time you don't take cover is a brief dash to a safer local while receiving fire at 1-2% hit chance.
Don't under any circumstances charge with them, by all ,means especially if TI equipped use them as scouts but sensibly as you would a scout vehicle. They are worth their weight in gold for this ability & the capability to quickly plug gaps. Their other role is to take out a target in a position that it is hard to mount an attack on.

Avoidance is the key as a rule repeated fire will make them run however in most cases popping up or exposing to take a shot & receiving a few shots they stay. Now its threat assessment time depending on what fired do you take the shot or duck so as not to draw more which might force you to do so.
Maybe with low experience morale sides (under 70) they react differently.
Same as ground units never move more than a hex or 2 if you are going to fire.
Unless you know its safe move them a few hexes at a time, they are not hovering once speed is up.

Making life easy for helos
Buy a flight of SEAD aircraft & at least some CM arty
Use them to take out hard target AAA & other arty or ground forces to take out or suppress other AAA assets.
Also makes sense to have scout helos ratio anything from 2-1 to 1-2 is common that way if one receives fire there is a chance someone will see it.
Work with your ground forces most of the time scouting & taking out their big threats while they deal with yours.
Don't be impatient if you can take the enemy out with ground units do so save the attack helo & its limited ammo for the tricky situations or forcing a break through.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

US Apaches in Afghanistan have taken heavy small arms fire (and damage) and stayed in the fight. Examples are Operation Anaconda (Not A Good Day to Die is a good book about this) and the battle for COP Keating. I remember the Hinds in Afghanistan were considered pretty much invulnerable to anything smaller than Oerlicons or missiles as well.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

re: Imp: yeah, that sounds logical, but the "evasive maneuvers" behaviour reflects that. If they start taking too much fire they bob and weave. And I don't doubt that a good burst of 7.62 can hurt a Huey or a Hip, and induce an evac, but those are unarmored anyway. It's the armored helis that need looking at.

And, yeah, I wouldn't be complaining if it were dedicated AA that were swatting them from the sky. It's 7.62 AAMGs mounted on APCs, though, and against Hinds too. Lots of testimony about them withstanding tremendous amounts of punishment and still staying in the fight. I understand the decision to implement the "if heli is damaged then run" behaviour, but I don't agree with its current implementation, which is where they'll hightail it out despite taking only scratch damage. Lots of real-life heli pilots have decided "there are a few holes in my bird but she can still stay in the air, and they still need me to provide cover, so I'm staying".

Otherwise, though, I agree with the tactical advice on how to use helis. SEAD helps, but the greatest threat is MANPADS. Keep your birds flying NOE, run scouts ahead of your main force, and keep in mind that helis are not meant to be the spearhead. Airmobile operations to seize a key town or ridge are inherently high-risk, high-reward activities.

(Also, sidenote, I'd like to ask about the cost of the Blackhawk series, which makes air assaults prohibitively expensive for Americans compared to Hips, which can carry almost twice as many troops--given the size of Soviet infantry platoons, entire platoons per bird is possible--and costs about half as much. There were enough variants, and field-variations, that I think that a Blackhawk variant with less protection and less EW but not costing a ridiculous 170 points per heli should be a good addition to the US orbat.)

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Is there someway to recover a post for this thread, after being told to log back in and hit enter, I get a banner saying something along the lines of you can't log in because you already are? The post came back up blank. Not happy with this site right now when given positive direction to do something. No other keys were hit. Didn't start new thread as it occured in this one. Sorry but frustrated with this, especially you knew how I type for one.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Helicopter armor
 

The post content might still be in your browser cache - just use the browser history to jump back to it, then copy it to the clipboard so you can paste it into a new post.

That is pretty unreliable, though - clicking "back" immediately when the login prompt comes up usually works (but not always), but trying it later is unlikely to work, especially if you have made another post since then.


In general, I recommend "preventative copying" - unless it's a post you don't mind retyping, hit Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C before clicking Submit.
(Posts I consider "really important" go in a text file... just in case I accidentally fill the clipboard with something else, like my password...)

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Okay lets review this
So attack helos were attacked & damaged by small arms fire?
If so then the game doing so on occasion is not far off.

In cases where they were damaged & decided to stay was this because all they faced was small arms fire, in other words no dedicated AAA or real threat like MANPADS?

This presents a bit of a problem I am guessing game wise in that helos would need to access the threat & react differently. Run if dedicated AAA stay if otherwise.
Could possibly be done based on warhead size, size 1 would be small arms or MG anything bigger is a major threat.
Cold war type battle they would bug out due to dedicated AAA but vs insurgents etc they might stay is what I am getting at.

I am guessing this bit of code is a mess though so lots of work, damaged helos sometimes have a fit & recover if fired at as retreating. Has pros & cons in that it can get itself killed but it can also deplete air defence ammo as its not much use anyway.

I would still in most cases withdraw the damaged unit for a number of reasons.
Firstly damage may well make it fairly inaccurate so chances of it being battle effective are lessened.
Conversely the chances of it dying are higher as it probably wont evade so well & I don't want to risk losing the unit as they are normally high points value.

Just saying not sure there is an easy answer here.

On the transport helo option forget the points look at USA military doctrine.
As you said hi risk op do you not think USA of all countries would put them in the best stuff available to actually get them to the mission with the minimum of loses.
Don't quote me on this but I reckon USA has the best protected (EW) transport helos around because of this thinking.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

After reading this thread, it appears some tweaking of the Armor Hull rating of the Attack Helos is agreed. In the meantime, while we're developing scenarios with Attack Helos (I'm writing one using the Marine Viper) what can a developer do to tweak the Attack Helos until the patch is released?

I am considering the Front and Side Hull ratings increased from 10 to as high as 20 and 6 respectively. However, after viewing the Russian ratings, their Side Hull ratings are as low as the Viper, although the Front Hull rating is significantly higher,thus I am not confident adjusting the Armor ratings in Edit Unit Data is sufficient to model current damage profiles of Attack Helos, or affect the behavior to "stay in the fight."

Re: Helicopter armor
 

You can leave it alone. If we do anything it will be with code and the LAST thing we need is a scenario designer creating uber helos by fudging the OOB values

Re: Helicopter armor
 

re: Imp: my issue isn't that armored gunships take damage on occasion and retreat. It's that, when they are hit by low-caliber weapons, they will take damage most of the time, and it's very rare that the armor prevents it.

This is made even worse that they will retreat even if they only took one point of damage. In no cases do they take damage but still stay on the field. Note that "evasive maneuvers" and "retreat" refer to different things. "Evasive maneuvers" means they'll dodge to different hexes to avoid fire; "retreat" means they bug out entirely. In other words, despite taking only minimal damage, helicopters will run for the map edge in full retreat mode, being an effective mission kill.

As I understand it, helicopters will already take evasive maneuvers--i.e., random-walk a few hexes--if they're sufficiently spooked by small-arms fire, flak, SAMs, and the like. That might need some tweaking, since in at least one case I've seen an OH-6 dodge toward the Ka-29 that was shooting at it and thereby giving the Kamov a much easier shot. But it's not the main issue.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

YES, we know this, YES we have already said we are going to look into it.



Don

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Yeah, I get it. I was answering the questions Imp posted, to wit:
That sounded like he was going into their evasive maneuver code, as well as the question of what it was damaged by, plus the answers to the questions he wrote.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

My misunderstanding I thought you wanted evasion modified when hit by small arms fire to.

If they become invulnerable to squad weapons player can just scout by flying at max speed & bumping into the enemy in the later half of the game when AA assets are gone.
Urban example just fly it down the street to see whos there.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I can see the issue with that, yes, but unarmored helis, which are most of them, are going to take damage anyway, and armored helis are notoriously difficult to bring down with squad weapons. There has to be some balance between the two.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I think the reason why helicoters bug out so easy, is because of possible damage to it's propeller blades, which is unprotected and sinning real fast, spinning so fast, it's like the size of the vehicle increses when flying. This results in the possibilty of receiving collateral damage easier than normal, catastrophic failure. Probably scares the **** out of pilots. But it's still aggravating to players. It's so bad, I don't even buy helicopters any more. I guess I expect them to be like calvary, comming in at the last moment and saving the day.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I think this thread has gotten the attention of the guys doing the code work. I'm just gonna chime in here to keep the conversation going as well. If Ed Too Tall was flying his bird under our game conditions, he would not have won the Medal of Honor back in the Nam at La Drang. We're just asking for what we can do today to give our scenarios a better simulation (not complete hard-core helo simulatiom), but better within the game environment.

Is it true that unit changes made via the D-key in the Editor Deploy phase DO NOT affect the OOB as it appears from my experience thus far?

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Using the "D key" to edit a unit effects ONLY that unit (unless you tell it to apply the changes to all units of the same type) in the scenario you're currently editing, and has no effect whatsoever on the OOB.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

When the the Attack Helo takes damage value of -1 he bugs out, that's it, he retreats off the map in the next turn. You can sit him down, you can reduce suppression, but in the next turn he's gonna leave the fight. What if we permitted damage to increase to say -2?

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Because as discussed many a time and oft - if there is any damage to a plane then it may well fall out of the sky without notice. Pilots really don't like that idea at all, so they RTB as soon as they can. Only the wrench wallahs can look at the thing and determine if the damage needs down time in the maintenance hangar.

Its a basic design element of the SP engine, and aint going to change whatsoever. A damaged flying machine = RTB.

So if your helo gets plinked, then drop the passengers or fire at what you can before the pilot decides to scarper.

Andy

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Yay that,
What people seem to forget,is the rotor or blades have no armour just a nick on the blades throws off the balance and makes it highly unstable to fly,and any major damage to the rear rotor it spins to the ground.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I'm sure many of you have heard this before - A pilot once told me a helo is nothing more then 100,000 parts flying in close formation, and 90% of them vital to it staying airborne.

In my tests for my OOB variant I've fooled around with adding 1 armor to all helos and increasing the armor on attack types. It does reduce their vulnerability but once they get damaged it's all over.
It may help to think of them as aerial trucks rather then APC's.
If you expose trucks loaded with troops to fire, any fire, you're going to be very unhappy with the result.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I'm fine with helis retreating if they take damage; in that case, then, it looks like the focus will be on fine-tuning the code for helicopter armor so that they don't take damage from small arms so often. Agreed or not?

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Look up at posts 3 and 13:rolleyes:

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Hey, now, the discussion did take a detour on the whole "evasive maneuvers" issue and another one on whether or not helis would retreat when damaged or not. For all intents and purposes there were three related issues under discussion.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Sorry,i meant the issue should be looked at.
As Suhir pointed to,helos are not flying tanks,but rather delicate an vunerable.
Easier to shoot down than than low level fixed winged air units and much slower.
They don't always take damage when hit,are you just pushing them a bit much?
I would suppose any pilot flying into intense small arms fire would evade as modeled in game.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I will expand upon this elsewhere but for where I'm at between two projects right now I believe this article fits this thread for now. Though this article covers a lot of ground it does address the concerns of the USMC about the HIND and it's overall assessment to defeat it and the Soviet helicopter threat overall on the battlefield and thus addresses by default most of the issues brought up in this thread to include at least on the Soviet side how the USMC perceived how their pilots would operate based on their combat performance to date of this paper. It is an honest evaluation of the CORPS ability to fight in this environment. Sorry but, yes this will require some reading.
The HIND has been around a few years now and the USMC was just getting their AH-1W COBRA gunships. Ground support would soon follow with the LAV-AD that was designed to be a close air support system and HIND killer. HIND protection level at this time was 12.7mm all angle protection on the fuselage, 35mm protection around the cockpit and bullet proof cockpit glass. This from 1988...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1988/ZMD.htm

Regards,
Pat

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Its my understanding that helos are only supposed to be used at a distance beyond small arms fire and RPGs. Look up videos on youtube re American helos engaging insurgents- its always at a great distance. Helos buzzing and strafing ground troops at close range is Hollywood stuff

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I submit this with the utmost RESPECT. However...
I'll be sure to tell that to the guys that flew in Vietnam or currently in Afghanistan. Video provides but the smallest glimpse of reality. One thing dictates all, the terrain in which you find yourself operating in and that goes for helos as well. That applies to helos as well. In the books on the Indochina War-"Hell in a Very Small Place" , "Valley of Death" -Vietnam-"Black-Horse Riders", "We Were Young and Soldiers Once" -Somalia-"Blackhawk Down" -Afganistan- "The Outpost", if you have read any of these or a combination of them I feel most people would reverse themselves on the RTB issue somewhat have a better understanding of helicopter operations in general. In the "The Outpost" are numerous accounts from the soldiers who were on the ground on on the close in air support of APACHE helos and MEDEVAC helos in getting the dead and wounded out. The book covers OPS in the Kamdesh District (COP KEATING and surrounding area.) in the Hindu Kush region of NE Afgnanistan near the Pakistani border. This is not normal operating territory for the helo where the "rebels" many times have the "higher higher ground" giving them a "look down shoot down" advantage at times against helos and most of the time against the troops in this area.
I gained a deep respect for helicopter pilots to the point of emotion, concerning the French crews that were volunteering until the high command suspended helo ops (and Air crews that continued to fly supply, reinforcements and air support as well.) into Dien Bien Phu which had at that time the largest concentration of AA since WWII Germany. Back then helos as compared to their modern brethren might as well have painted the bullseye on them but, yet they kept flying and dying to get the wounded out of there. That's what you get from a good history book or living through it yourself and seeing it. All above provide many, many first hand accounts of both main helo ops yet that's not what the above books were about but, but what the soldiers recounted in the above books about them. Think about that for a few minutes.
And to be fair I haven't forgotten about the helo ops of the British in Maylasia and Falklands or the Russians in Afghanistan under combat situations, there are histories and stories there as well.
We don't generalize about how tanks operate in the game as we have a long history of operations and wars to draw from in making them work in the game. However I don't know as I can say that fully in how we treat helos in the game because quite frankly they are tougher now in machine, crew training and tactics all of which is for a later time.

I have a video too it's the "HIND Killer" but you would't know it by watching this video ;)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM82Vuq3PdM

Glad I was on subs at least we got to take showers once in a while!?!
And...
Perspective can be like a bad commercial...My Dad 28yrs. in the USA/Combat in 3 wars/Eldest son in the USN/SS/You fiqure out what was priceless to him.
I salute all you "ground pounders" as I saluted him for the last time, and all those associated with supporting them in the field both in the past and present.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: Helicopter armor
 

While it's 100% correct that helos "are suppose to be used at a distance beyond small arms fire and RPGs" unfortunately reality, and the extraordinary dedication of Medivac pilots often means this isn't the case.

The infamous helo attack from "Apocalypse Now" is an excellent example of what real helos in action looks like.
Some attacks are from range, some are in-your-face.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I don't use helos very often, but when I do I tend to use them the same way I use horse cavalry in WinSPWW2: fast, potent but fragile offensive force. You use them as a mobile reserve to deal with enemy breakthroughs and other trouble spots, you send them behind the lines to bash the enemy's artillery park, or you use them at the end to corral and finish off a broken force.

I just thought it was natural for them to die quickly when a still-potent force starts shooting at them. I guess not.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Well, that's what some people belive

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I'd generally agree, up to a point. If my armored helis start coming under fire from Iglas and Shilkas (or Stingers and Vulcans), I'd expect them to die off; less so for rifle-caliber AAMGs.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Things not talked about...
1. Using helos like tanks you need to terrain mask them where you can. I'm willing to bet a 1/3 of the players go charging in. The assault aspect is more Cold War then anything where NATO had a distinct disadvantage in numbers. More finesse is needed in the modern battlefield.

2. Like on map arty, don't hover or stay in the same area more then a couple of turns. If you do you deserve what you get...shot down or damaged normally. And to follow through, your arty will come under fire normally by mortars first and the big guns next for the same reason. AI hates on map arty.

3. To the main topic as started...Lookdown TI/GSR is much more effective than "look at" TI/GSR. Height of eye is a huge advantage. In my world if I'm moving my helo in a "search mode" (Segments of say 6-10 hexes.) where I suspect enemy are, and it comes upon the enemy unit(s), especially if moving, the helo should have the advantage. It is after all actively seeking contact and the "finger is on the trigger". If you fly across the battlefield then as is in the game your both in that "ah poop" mode as is now.

4. Helos for about the last 20yrs. or so have more redundent systems on board, also more recently within the last maybe ten years your seeing these systems protected by armor as well. Mi-35is protected against 35mm or 37mm rounds the AH-1Z is protected against 23mm rounds. Transport helos have add on armor plating added when operating in combat zones (Belly area.) plus what I've already noted above.

5. Defensively...They are quieter, faster and more manuverable, have as much EW as a jet in many cases with full defensive suites to include chaff and flares such as "Angel Fire" this includes transports. Don't believe me, I'll provide all the pics you want upon request of course. :D

6. I'm not asking to see my helo going spinning around the screen, but crew survibility has always been an issue with me here. All helo pilots learn to auto-rotate their birds and generally can safely land them. In urban or mountianous terrian the odds go down significantly however, this is better then the zero chance they have now for crews and passengers, though not helos the point can still be made, a bridge in France comes to mind right now known as "Pegasus" if you'd read the history it would support my point here. This is to my mind a major issue, truth is many crews live to fly another day and troops survive to fight. The crew issue goes to exprience level of crews directly not unlike tank crews in general.

7. Attack Helos: Save slots and alot them as in real life. I can think of at least 10-15 countries this can be applied. You want them playing the "big boys" then you should pay for them as the real "big boys" use them-in pairs. Developed countries since Vietnam have flown attack helos in pairs to be mutual supporting for overwatch and targeting purposes. What's to be gained besides saving some slots? Well maybe the player will take better care of them if it costs more to use them. And for the player (And AI.) well after they pay for them they can still use them how ever they want. Not much downside if you think about it. But if you pay attention to the AI's general use of Attack Helos, it tends to keep them paired and mutually supporting each, based on my years of playing against th AI.

8. RTB part of the game. Some minor tweeking before they do it maybe. Just "freezing" and running due to suppression not so sure. I think from what I've read and just in general as a thought better to go home with empty (Or near empty.) weapons racks. As the game operates now though it seems more exprienced crews don't RTB as soon as less exprienced crews. Is this a faultly observation on my part?

9. Finally they are not invincible. A hit to the tail rotor that causes damage to it, you won't be in the air long, and it will be harder to auto-rotate down. It is for instance felt that the crew of "Super Six" could've survived the RPG hit they took but what killed them was the crash site in a narrow alley and wall they ended up hitting.

Autorotation can be accomplished at altitude ref. provided on techique and video shows a S-92 Mil. transport at max. payload wieght doing it.
http://helicopterflight.net/autorotation.htm
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...7400CD7C6DFA5E



My thoughts for what their worth.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Helicopter armor
 

1 & 2) Just like SP-ATGs/SP-ATGMs helos are a "shoot-n-scoot" weapon system.
Myself I move at low altitude to a firing point and the following turn execute a pop-up and fire my missiles.
Of course the pop-up immediately attracts the fire of every AA weapon the opposition possesses. But you can get around this to an extent by having either scout helos or another attack helo (they usually come in pairs) skim along popping up and down (low to high altitude) at the extreme range of opposition AA capability to draw fire before your intended firing unit pokes it nose out.

3) For my part I've been rather disappointed at the "lookdown" capability of helos in general and TI/GSR equipped ones in specific. They very rarely spot opposition infantry until they move right next to it triggering an opportunity fire which very frequently damages the helo (even if its only small arms fire vs an armored helo).

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Yeah, terrain masking is incredibly important; swarm of MANPADS are terrible, terrible things to see. 8 or 10 Strela-2Ms rising from the trees are a horrible if familiar sight before I learned the importance of ridges.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

While researching US Army Attack Helicopter doctrine, I found several interesting reads on the battle that seemingly has changed the role of attack helicopters from deep-strike missions to CAS. The article, "Renaissance of the Attack Helicopter in the Close Fight," gives several accounts of the battle that occurred on March 23, 2003 involving the 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment with a discussion of asymmetric warfare and the emerging role of attack helicopters.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

So it's natural that an Apache or Hind that are protected from heavy caliber gun fire, should retreat when they suffer damage (1) from rifle fire. What's the point of having an armored helicopter then??? A tank or IFV does not retreat when it's damaged; why should an attack helicopter? (Note that I am talking about damage up to (2) and armored helos only; obviously a transport would retreat even with minimum damage...)
PS: I have no problem with helos taking evasive maneuvers when being fired on; however I though they would fly away from enemy fire rather than towards it (as it unfortunately happens now in the game...:rolleyes:)

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I'm currently authoring a scenario using attack helos, CAS with an interdiction mission as well. What I'm researching is how the Vipers react given higher EW numbers. The higher numbers seem to enable the Vipers to stick and fight whereas at their stated EW of 9 they would bug out. Also, I have significantly increased the EW of Venoms with satisfactory results too. While I've modified EW numbers, the armor ratings remain unchanged.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

What you are doing is giving them better protection vs dedicated AAA units, no effect vs regular units that don't infact have an EW rating.

The game tests respective EW of firer & target to determine hit chance, you see a message something like EW defeats missile & a big drop in hit chance. Then you get a check to see if the pilot evades & a similar result.

EW does fall down with regard to ATGMs as they ignore it & hence normally have a good hit chance but its pretty rare to find a stationary target for them so its not a huge issue.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Interesting. With my Vipers supporting Marines, I have the Vipers 200-300 meters behind the infantry formation. When the Vipers pop up to fire, the EW rating should help the Viper survive INF SAM or AA gun fires. On an interdiction mission, if I inadvertently fly into an an adjacent hex of an opposing rifle squad, within 50 meters, the Viper will bug out as expected.

I would like my Vipers to follow a Venom, but the Venoms do not spot threats any better than the Vipers. I would of course prefer the Venoms to "see" much better as they have IR cameras installed on the latest models during aerial recon missions.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

As it stands at the moment the only way for a helo to see previously unspotted infantry is to fly right next to it.

If you hover in place a few turns (and somehow survive it) helos will eventually start seeing unspotted units nearby.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Well I thought I'd take a break. But I had to look into this. We need to be careful in our terms here.
1. EW is Electronic Warfare with MBT's that deals with defensive suites with Laser & IF detection, Jamming, IFF and the APS or other system. It offers no protection against tank rounds making this last important for the next. So to the topic at hand; with Helos the difference is no APS type systems. However added to the list above you would have chaff and flares or "Angel Fire" systems. But EW will have no bearing on AA/or AAA unless it's radar equipped. The Helo of today would make the radar about useless as these systems have generally not kept up with the times except in the case of some newer SPAA units such as the PANYSIR. I feel the EW ratings based on real world conditions for Helos in the game are actually pretty good and Don quite honestly has given me some "wiggle room" in the ratings I've recommended for the Helos I've submitted especially over the last couple of years. There is a balance to be maintained here because some Helos will approach the level and others I've submitted are at the level of some Jets but, generally speaking the Jet will have and should have a better potential of improved EW capbility if simply because they have more space for it and can better carry the weight of such improved systems. And that's before you get into the issues of Jets also carrying routinely now Target/ECM pods like SNIPER and LITENING Etc.

2. I think it still boils down to these general factors for the game...
A. Ensuring the defensive issues of a particular helo is properly addressed with the information given. Again this has gotten better in the last couple of years with the newer stuff in the game but the work is maybe more in older helos I.E. from about late 1967 to early 1968 in response to the heavy loss of the UH-1 helos in Vietnam, when new ones came into theatre they were locally modified with a "belly" armor plate for protection from ground fire from enemy troops. In theatre ones had them added during maintaince periods.

B. To keep them in the fight increase the Moral factor and possibly the Exprience one as well though I like this option less, it should still be earned. The crew survival issue raised is key to the exprience level dicussion. This goes simply to the whole "I shot the heck out of them and beat feet home!" empty weapons racks idea I discussed earlier in a previous post here.

C. TI/GSR; yes sir got three helo night time videos. First is from last month from a Police helo FLIR system. Second is of two APACHE gunships in the mountains of Afganistan in a rocky, brush and tree enviroment. The last is an AC-130 putting the 105mm to good use in the mountainous woods of Afganistan. NOTE: In the APACHE video in the lower left corner you'll see "TADS" (Targeting System.) when it shows a number with an (*) I.E. *750 that's the distance in meters to the target. Also note the 5 round bursts.

I still stand by my Post from the previous page as the major issues with helos in the game. Enjoy the videos!
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/...-extreme-cold/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTN6H9O4VA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iopW06M2RI0

Also if I gotta tell you what this is well...
Attachment 12882

Regards,
Pat

Re: Helicopter armor
 

I tend to agree, the EW ratings used in WinSPMBT work just fine as is.
They do what EW really does; reduce the chance to be hit by radar guided/aimed weapons.

As to the other things (armor, sighting) those are separate issues totally unrelated to EW.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Sighting is a different issue & not really fixable without a rework.
Cant swear by it but I think better vision capabilities as in 60 or 40 vs zero does give a very slight improvement. Probably & just going from something Ginger Tanker said TI is not as much as a benefit as it should be.
You could test I suppose by cloning units probably infantry so they are identical & fitting different vision aids if you really wanted to. Be hard to be conclusive though because what does it see better the unit, or just through the hindrance's like invisible dust etc.

Problem is only way to improve it AFAIK is to increase experience, so also evasion shooting etc.
So only simple :) fix I can think of is different TI levels get an experience boost that applies only to the sighting routine.
By that as an example I mean a 40TI unit gets a built in experience boost of XX from the vision aid & it only applies to sighting.

If you wanted to could define systems a bit better this way so 40TI units as an example could come with 3 choices of experience boost to sight.
If you were going to do this though you would possibly want a big negative reduction if it was not through the front facing for most units to offset this so makes sneaking up on tanks still possible.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Yeah, I increased in the 85 to 97 range for unit Morale and Experience, yet failed to mention in my previous posts. Thanks for the reminder.

Re: Helicopter armor
 

A bit of an off-topic, but I hope you forgive me this:

My pet peeve with helicopters is the "spotting for SAM." On one game my opponent did a paradrop near my helicopter which was landed (or was it again flying but not far from the ammo dump) for a refill. Once his paratroopers were there they were able to communicate and a SAM just launched missiles at it until it was downed. This was in version 6.0 IIRC, is there any fix for this or is this something that's even possible to fix?

Re: Helicopter armor
 

No - It is basic Steel Panthers.

If private Snuffy spots something then everyone on the battlefield knows exactly what Snuffy knows. Even if he has no radio, and is miles outside of shouting distance. Just like you the Player-God can select Snuffy and see exactly what ammo etc he has.

So the paras spotted the helo with thier Mk1 eyeballs, and a SAM on the other side of the battlefield now knows this by "SP telepathy", and is in LOS = Fox One!.

One could write complicated rules about who knows what, with individual spot lists for each and every unit, and spotting results getting passed up and dowwn the chain of command. Nasty horrible code, and not worth doing since you, the all-seeing Player God KNOW that Pte Snuffy saw a panther there, so you the god-palyer can plot "blind" artillery even though your arty spotter unit really has no actual knowledge of that panther's existence. Or you the Player-god now know there are tanks on your flank, and so you pivot your flank company to face the oncoming troops (who really should continue on clueless and get surprised). There is no way to legislate for this in a 2 player "total command" type game where you have total access to your pieces.

So tabletop gamers ignore such, or they play "command HQ" type games with each player in his own room, and umpires in a third with the real map. Umpires put units on player maps and they can lie!:eek:. That is the way the Prussians did Kriegspiel - military types like it, civvie rivet-counting micro-manager types usually hate that sort of game where they dont get to move around their own units with their own hands, and the umpires keep the rule books and roll the dice:rolleyes:.

Andy

Re: Helicopter armor
 

Since you're probably about to ask dmnt ...

What radios do it the game is basically two things:
1) Allow a unit to call in mortars/artillery/air support
2) Allow a unit to be "in command" when located far from it's formation HQ