AA Radar Question
 

I have looked at the OOBs (sorry Don, I know I shouldn't do it) and one thing about the AA Radar values (FC >= 100) confuses me. In the Mobhack guide it says:

Which indicates that FC100 would be FC0 with the ability to see aircraft through smoke and darkness. That makes little sense, since AA radars are always coupled with an electromechanical (before the 1950s) or electronic computer, which are usually better at calculating firing solutions than any local (mounted on the gun) predictor sight. That would indicate that AA guns with radar should have FC values starting from somewhere around 105 and going much higher than local control AA guns. However, that is not the case, but instead there are a lot of radar AA guns which have FC100 and many others have relatively low values.

For example: in the German OOB the M42 Duster (unit 087) has an FC value of 10, but the original Gepard (unit 088) has 100 and even the Gepard A1 (unit 089) has only 105.

Have I understood something wrong?

Re: AA Radar Question
 

100 is IIRC equivalent to FC 1, so 101 would be a value of 2 FC for a non-radar equipped AAA unit. So a slight typo in the GG is all.

Andy

Re: AA Radar Question
 

So basically the OOBs are full of radar guided AA guns with the equivalent of FC 1, which is typically allocated to WW2 style AAMGs with a simple ring sight? And nobody has noticed that before? I know this is a game primarily about tanks and stuff like AA guns are in a minor part, but here's another example from Russian OOB:

• Unit 400 BTR-40A: FC2
• Unit 402 ZSU-23-4 Shilka: FC100

So, in a good weather and daylight the BTR-40A with a WW2 style mechanical predictor sight is more likely to hit aircraft than the Shilka, which has a radar coupled to an analog electronic fire control computer?

For what it's worth, historically the Shilka worked so well that the Israelis had to stop flying below 5,000 feet unless absolutely necessary until they found ways to suppress or destroy the vehicles. Another FC100 weapon in the game (it seems), the Oerlikon 35mm guns with radar and integrated fire control computer, worked so well in the Falklands that British Harriers were forbidden to fly closer than 3,000 meters to known battery locations.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Not quite.
The ZSU-23-4 is a LOT more likely to "see" its' target, specially at range, then the BTR-40A, and you can't shoot what you don't see.
Additionally you can't ignore the RF (range finder) which is 1 for the BTR-40A and 6 for the ZSU-23-4 Shilka; also the weapon Accuracy 23 for the 14.5 ZPU-2 AAMG and 20 for the 4x23mm 2A7 AA.
ALL these factors work together to determine the probability a given weapon will hit.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Interesting read. However, as I get overwhelmed at times with the massive amount of data required to build and play scenarios in this game, if we look at the Fire Control (FC) ratings we should note the opposite here. A FC rating of 2 IS NOT more likely to hit target than a unit with a FC rating of 100 even if both units have eyes on the target or LOS.

From the Game Guide (GG): "The variable (FC) acts a little like a range finder, below, but not so much, in allowing the unit to engage with better to-hit percentages at longer ranges."

BTR-40A: FC 2, RF 1, Stabilizer 0
ZSU-23-4: FC 100, RF 6, Stabilizer 2

Clearly, the Shilka is a better AA unit than the BRT-40A even if the latter has not moved in the prior turn as per the huge difference in the Stabilizer rating.

Hmm... the authors of the GG must not have studied English in the real West, as Stabilizer is incorrectly spelled as Stabiliser.

Smile.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

TeeHee - I think you will find the guide is written in English (not some bastardised, colonial offshoot :p)

Re: AA Radar Question
 

"Go West, young man, and grow up with the [world] country." Horace Greeley. circa 1865. Addition and emphasis my own.

Smile, you know we got it good on the west side, where the sun still shines, the babes smile your name, and you can ride a convertible all day long, into the sunset, and you ain't gotta use no AK-47!

Hoorah

Re: AA Radar Question
 

How does EW affect the chance to hit? The shilka, for example.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

The Mobhack Guide says:

Which indicates that for hitting fast moving targets like aircraft, Fire Control is very important. Whether it's more important than Range Finder, I don't know. Perhaps Andy can open up the calculations a little bit for us?

Stabilizer value is very secondary to this matter, since towed AA guns do not usually more very often in any case, and even SPAA vehicles should move only occasionally in most scenarios. Weapon accuracy is irrelevant, since you can see the same low FC numbers for radar controlled gun even in cases where you have a locally controlled and radar controlled versions with more or less the same weapon. For example in the Chinese OOB:

37mm Type 74 AA (unit 802) has FC100 and RF6, but unit 446 37mm Type 55 AA has FC10 and RF6! The accuracy of primary weapons of both units is 18.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

The EW rating of the firing unit is compared to the EW rating of the target unit, the larger EW rated unit then has a greater chance of hit or evasion.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Optical systems like AAMG should have a high EW rating then?

Re: AA Radar Question
 

I thought EW rating only affects missiles and AA guns with radar. Logically it should be so. However, if it isn't, I agree that purely optical AAA systems should have a very high EW rating, as should ones which rely on thermals and laser rangefinders (neither can't be effectively fooled by any current methods).

Re: AA Radar Question
 

A generic Anti Aircraft Machine Gun (AAMG) is not an optical system. So, if you mean optical system as an automatic visual tracking and fire control system, then yeah an AAMG may be fitted with such fire solutions; furthermore, an AAMG with such a system may have a higher EW than an AAMG without an "optical system" as discussed here.

From the GG:

"For AA vehicles and units, and planes defending against them, the ratio between firer and target plane EW is very important. If the target electronic defences 'win' then the firer hit chance will be reduced."

Additionally, Vision can have significant consequences as well. An optical system may then refer to Vision as per the GG:

"If fitted, enhanced night vision equipment,with a value of 40 or greater representing a Thermal Imager or a Ground Surveillance Radar (TI or GSR). If game visibility is say 3 hexes, and you have a vision capacity of 12, you can see 9 hexes further than unaided units, which can be vital and devastating. TI and GSR can see through smoke as well, another vital advantage when the opponent lacks this capability..."

Helpful?

Re: AA Radar Question
 

I think I understand more. Thanks for the advice.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

AAMG's usually do not have any kind automation. They have a passive sight that varies from a simple ring sight to a (relatively) sophisticated reflector sight. If we want to do semantical nitpicking, they are all "optical systems" in the sense than they rely on (passive) optical acquisition and tracking of the target by Mk1 Eyeball, but in the case of a reflector sight helped by additional optics in the sight. The "system" has components which are the gun with a sight, and the human eye and brain. Reflector sights can be used with IIR devices for some night vision. There is no reason not to call that a system even if it's not an automated system.

The whole point is that by logic passive optical target acquisition should be immune to EW, so an AAA weapon which has no active radiating components should ignore any EW completely, or if that is not possible from the way the game works, have a higher EW rating than any target. No radio frequency jamming is going to make the aircraft invisible and (visual) cloaking devices have not been invented yet.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Ghetto edit: I meant I2 (image intensifier) devices with reflector sights. IIR means Imaging InfraRed, which is not the same thing.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

EW only works against SAMs and AAA guns with EW, so optical AAA guns with optical FC aren't affected by a plane or helo's EW value.

Therefore a 12.7 Dushka or a 40mm Bofors firing over optical sights at a "stealth" plane emitting zillions of watts of jamming or flares does not give a hoot, if it is passing by in broad daylight and hence perfectly visible by mk1 eyeball. That is why stealth bombers tend to be painted black and operate when the sun is down (duh:smirk:). A shoulder fired SAM or a radar guided gun (FC 100+) will do, whether its night or day.

EW only works against electronics. (Radar AAFC 100+ or AAGW).

An AA gun with normal FC (sub 100) is an optical (or whatever) on-sight system and so is not in the EW battle. Normal visual rules apply there.

Planes with EW ratings less than AAA systems EW are over-matched and wont fare too well. Conversely, if the AAA system is over-matched by the planes EW then they wont do too well vs the planes.

As with all things SP, its an abstraction, and a broad-brush one at that, dealing with a side show to the main meal of land warfare (cloud punching). Note there is absolutely no split on IRCM, ECM, laser CM etc.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Okay, that's what I originally thought and it's really the only way it makes sense.

So, to put things together, the only "problem" we have is that Radar AAA has too low FC-100 almost throughout the game compared to non-radar AAA FC. As a general rule should FC(radar)-100 ≥ FC(non-radar) when comparing systems of roughly the same era and technology level. In practice that would mean that minimum FC for radar controlled AA should be somewhere around 110, since most WW2 AA guns with a predictor sight get 10. Of course a modern electro-optically directed AA gun such as modernized ZU-23-2 guns with a LRF and digital computer will still beat a 1950s era radar controlled gun.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Set up some tests, never have but I would be surprised if radar AA is not far more effective than any none radar AA especially if the flight path lets it track the target & get multiple shots at it.
Trying to determine the difference would be very difficult due to the amount of factors involved though.
As mentioned radar can often "see" better & hence maintain target lock for longer.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Yes, I agree it's possible that even with the current low FC values radar AAA might be better than non-radar AAA in most cases. However, the whole point is that it should be at least as good if not better in circumstances that are optimal for the latter, that is daylight with good visibility. The reason for that is that AAA radars are always coupled with a fire control computer which has immediate access to the range and azimuth information from the radar. Non-radar systems without a LRF rely on range and speed estimation or much slower range finding by an optical (usually stereoscopic) range finder. Even the latter was usually provided only with heavy AA guns from 75mm upwards.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

I just did a very quick test.
Visibility 100 all terrain open ground so nothing to interfere with LOS.
Year 1992 Russian ZSU-23-M42 vs ZSU-23-M43

They use same weapon etc only differences being one has radar the other FC15 & radar model has an EW rating.
Placed 6 of both, one of each in the same hex & then set up spotter planes & jets attack runs.
All planes used were EW 0 to negate EW rating of M43.
I did not bother to set experience identical for all units so not a definitive test but from watching a few passes dependant on range Radar controlled was 2-5 times more accurate than the none radar units.
The radar units were far more dangerous approaching 50% hit chance at a bit over half of the weapon range & well worth paying double for in game terms & that's without factoring in blocking terrain & low visibility.

Re: AA Radar Question
 

Okay, I agree that sounds promising. I am not for making sweeping changes just for "getting it right" unless it has no significant bearing on actual gameplay. Don might disagree I suppose, since I caused him some grief with the last SPWW2 update, but at this point I am not making any concrete OOB suggestions. This is all just for discussion of the game mechanics.

I would like to point out that the units you used had only a difference of 4 or 27% in FC with the radar substracted. There are greater differences in other OOBs (up to 9 or 800% at least, which is a order of magnitude more) and once I get to it, I intend to do some testing as well.