AI longtime simulation feature
 

I would like to see a change of SEIV which helps with AI longtime simulation. The situation at the moment is, if you switch every player to computer control, you get a message like "the Last human player has died, the game is over". If a simulator window would pop up in this case, like:

-How many turns do you want to simulate ?
-Or press Ctrl+B (or similar) to break the simulation

If one of the break situations has turned to true, every player would be set to human control.

This would provide an easier longtime simulation, e.g. overnight simulation, or "where is my AI positioned after 20 years ?" and so forth.

I have sent this suggestion to MM already, but I would like to know what you Mod Gurus think about it, maybe you have some additional ideas to a feature like this, or concerns ?

P.S.: Additional idea, log file creation for the AI(s) that I want to observe, with a similar player list/radio button function

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I second this idea. I suggested something like this in the forum some ago, but never sent a request to MM (I am a lazy writer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ).
Thanks, for sending that suggestion in. FWIW, you have my support.

Rollo

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I third the idea.
1) I usually play solo. I like to play games to completion, even after I'm way ahead. It would be nice to have the AI play for me for a while. (Emperor goes on a well-deserved vacation.)
2) It would help with scenario generation. Set up a random game, make everyone AI, let it run for 50 turns, then go in and take over one of the weaker empires (or one of the strong empires, for newbies).

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I forth the idea. I used to play Empire Deluxe and do that. Among other things it gave me an idea of how the AI played,
(hmm, is that cheating or is it research).
I also agree with letting the AI finish a game for me.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I like the idea as long as you can specify the number of turns. Don't really care personally 'bout it finishing the game. Maybe adding a capability to run AI until some condition is met (victory, declaration of war, hostile activity, treaty breakage, etc.). Sure its been said before but maybe someone will include my vote somewhere....

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I sixth this idea.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rdouglass:
... Maybe adding a capability to run AI until some condition is met (victory, declaration of war, hostile activity, treaty breakage, etc.). Sure its been said before but maybe someone will include my vote somewhere....<hr></blockquote>

I guess if victory condition is met this would stop the game anyway, but I like the idea to ask for other conditions also. The intention of this thread is to accumulate the ideas for a while, and I will send them to MM within the next days.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I am not one to jump on a band wagon. But I know a good hoe down when I see one.

Fantastic idea.

# of turns would be good
Summary log would be nice as well. ( Ie the score page every 5 to 10 turns for all races)
It will be great for mod testing.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I thought about the stopping conditions Last night. Maybe this could be done by an extension of the victory condition setup, e.g. as a kind of victory/AI simulation stop condition. There are just a few disadvantages:

-the conditions cannot be changed during a game, means: you cannot simulate until one condition, change it, and go ahead to the next condition

-the conditions seem to be requested every 3 to 5 turns or so. I have tried to run a single human player (for weapons testing, ship setup and so forth), after the first few turns (it seems to be not always after the first turn), a victory window pops up plus a question about continuing the game

All right, I guess there are better solutions.

As for the additional stop/break simulation conditions, we have now:

1. War declaration
2. Hostile activity
3. Treaty breakage
4. Score point goal
5. Research area goal
6. First contact
7. Number of turns (of course)

Any additional ideas ?

I guess some of them are not possible or needed, but let's see, what else would be important for AI testing and for scenarios (dmm: thumbs up !)...

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

The idea is very good, not only for modders but also to MM. Why not "train" the AI to improve it just as neural nets, decision trees or other algorithms? (In these structures engineers run a situation and lets the system deal with it, so they learn from them errors. With time the systems take better and better decisions).

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Me too I would welcome such a AI longtime simulation possibility.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shyrka:
The idea is very good, not only for modders but also to MM. Why not "train" the AI to improve it just as neural nets, decision trees or other algorithms? (In these structures engineers run a situation and lets the system deal with it, so they learn from them errors. With time the systems take better and better decisions).<hr></blockquote>

Hey Shyrka, do you know "Fritz", my favorite chess program ? It has a self-optimizing engine which does not make the same error for a second time.

For SEIV this would be future music, but what a potential ! EDIT: "dreams of the future", of course. I am still thinking too much in german. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Regards from a dreaming PTF...

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:


Hey Shyrka, do you know "Fritz", my favorite chess program ? It has a self-optimizing engine which does not make the same error for a second time.[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]<hr></blockquote>

Really? Then that's exactly what I was thinking. SE4 is so deep that for making the AI more effective some training algorithm is needed.

Any "Fritz" related web page? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shyrka:

Any "Fritz" related web page? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr></blockquote>

Sure,

http://www.chessbase.com/catalog/product.asp?pid=85

I don't have the ver 7, this has been published just recently ,I have got ver 6, the older Versions are a lot cheaper.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shyrka:


Really? Then that's exactly what I was thinking. SE4 is so deep that for making the AI more effective some training algorithm is needed.

Any "Fritz" related web page? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr></blockquote>

Saludos Chaval! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hey, I agree 100% with you... but sadly, this never will be for SE4. But I hope that SEV or SEVI (or something other 4X game!), will have an AI with learning capabilities some day.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Do you know what ? I have found an interim solution:

-set up a game with cheat codes allowed
-quick research shields until system grav. shield facility, with the "money" cheat
-quick research stellar manipulation until gravitational condensor
-close all warp points to your home system(s)
-build a system grav. shield
-Under Empire Options: turn off "show log at start of turn", and turn off "display confirmation dialog when ending turn"

And then put your coffee mug onto your F12 key...

Next morning: Release F12.

But an additional savegame with increasing indices every 10 or 20 turns would be nice (idea of Rollo, we had a short discussion about this).

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

...but the random events should be considered, either you use the Lucky trait or turn off the events completely. Most times I turn off the events and the ruins also in longterm sims because the impact is sometimes too much for a comparison (e.g. I saw a weak race which found another colony tech in a ruin and all of a sudden the score ran beyond the roof).

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

"But an additional savegame with increasing indices every 10 or 20 turns would be nice (idea of Rollo, we had a short discussion about this). "

Autosave. You can set it to save every 10 turns.. though I think it's overwriten by the next save.

If it is, a program could be made that sends F12, waits a few seconds, sends F12, repeat, and copies the autosave every 10 times it does that.

Phoenix-D

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Autosave. You can set it to save every 10 turns.. though I think it's overwriten by the next save.

If it is, a program could be made that sends F12, waits a few seconds, sends F12, repeat, and copies the autosave every 10 times it does that.

Phoenix-D<hr></blockquote>

Checked it, the autosaves are overwritten by the next one. So your batch program idea would kick in, but isn't it a problem with function keys ? As far as I remember, they are not buffered like the other keys.

Ideas ?

[ 13 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Also remember to turn off the "Confirm End of Turn" option.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I'm not a programer, so it was just a suggestion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Hi again,

unfortunately I had a blackout sometime around 1:00 p.m., but my nose was not upon F12, when I woke up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I think it could be easier to motivate Aaron to patch in a non-overwriting savegame solution. This should not be too difficult, savegame001, savegame002, ...

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

I did a program to simulate the longtime AI run.

Please note that when the turns go on, the game takes more time to run and save the files, then, you should increase the Delay between games to avoid SE4's error Messages...

SE4 Batch

[ 20 March 2002: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]</p>

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Wow, 8MB of code, that will take some time on my old steam computer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for the times in later states of the game, I have noticed that after about 150 turns, the turns do not take longer any more (with 20 races), there seems to be even a decrease in time, maybe due to some dying AIs.

Thanks very much indeed, MB.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

What you could do, is run a DOS shell command:
dir "filename.gam" &gt; test.txt

Then, open test.txt, and see if anything has changed since you Last opened it. (compare with a backup copy of test.txt, made just before you ran SE4 Last time)
This will be sensitive to file SIZE, and creation TIME.

If anything has changed, then SE4 must be done, so run the next turn!

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

MB, your Batchproggy makes me feel like a pre-warp population staring at a Borg Cube in the sky.
How ? I should better not ask.

With this we can even do simulations in the background and play a completely different game !

From what I have seen so far, I guess you could easily solve the following, humble request:

Could you implement, that the name of the savegame changes every 10 turns, like "batchtest_001", "batchtest_002" etc. ? This would allow to step into different stages of the simulation game afterwards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
MB, your Batchproggy makes me feel like a pre-warp population staring at a Borg Cube in the sky.
How ? I should better not ask.

With this we can even do simulations in the background and play a completely different game !

From what I have seen so far, I guess you could easily solve the following, humble request:

Could you implement, that the name of the savegame changes every 10 turns, like "batchtest_001", "batchtest_002" etc. ? This would allow to step into different stages of the simulation game afterwards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr></blockquote>

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Was not so hard!
I only used the same functionality that have PBW to run SE4: call SE4 using parameters (this was suggested into the Beta Testers forum).
I'll try to work with you suggestion during the weekend.

Suicide Junkie: I'll try a work around, but I have tested what you suggested before... and had not good results.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Bump
great program for testing AI/ getting a later stage game and hopping in with high *** tech but no planets or low *** tech and no planets or taking charge of a comp (Last place or some low place) and building up, or for scenario starts

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Ok, now I have finished the Version 1.1 (and probably the Last!).

I strongly suggest to download the patch:

- No more Delays.
- No more Error Messages (from SE4 when try to run more than oce at the same time).
- Capability create file backups.

UPDATE VERSION 1.1

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Hi MB,
I am having problems using your program. After I set up everything and want to run the simulation, I get an error "Command contains unrecognized phrase/keyword." When I hit ignore, I get "Command is missing required clause."
Hoping that you can help.

Rollo

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Hmmm. Maybe I need to upload more than the *.exe file!

Seems to be that you're the first that are using the new *.exe! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'll send to you a zip with the other files, if we fix the problem, then, will replace the actual zip in the forum.

Edit: have you downloaded and installed the big zip with 8 Mb? Because the second zip (the small), only have the upgrade.

[ 25 March 2002: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]</p>

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

MB, I noticed the same exception Messages, but just with your ver 1.1 , ver 1.0 works fine for me.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
MB, I noticed the same exception Messages, but just with your ver 1.1 , ver 1.0 works fine for me.<hr></blockquote>

But to install the 1.1, have you copied the new *.exe over the old *.exe, but keeping all the other files inside the folder?

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Master Belisarius:


But to install the 1.1, have you copied the new *.exe over the old *.exe, but keeping all the other files inside the folder?<hr></blockquote>

Hi MB,
thanks for the files that you sent. Unfortunately that didn't fix the problem.

Same thing here: ver. 1.0 runs okay, but ver. 1.1 doesn't. And yes, I did replace the .exe plus the other files into the 1.0 folder. FYI, the error occurs even before the first iteration starts.

Btw, thanks for writing this program. It is a great help to test the AI, even when you have only little time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Rollo

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Master Belisarius:


But to install the 1.1, have you copied the new *.exe over the old *.exe, but keeping all the other files inside the folder?<hr></blockquote>


Yes, I have copied the upgrade files over the old files. I should better have posted, I had no problems until I have upgraded. What I see in the folder is now: 69 files, about 1,02 MByte altogether. It seems to me that you do not get any problems with your installation ? Maybe it is something with the Version, I am testing with Golden 1.60, Winbugs 98, Pentium III.

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:



Yes, I have copied the upgrade files over the old files. I should better have posted, I had no problems until I have upgraded. What I see in the folder is now: 69 files, about 1,02 MByte altogether. It seems to me that you do not get any problems with your installation ? Maybe it is something with the Version, I am testing with Golden 1.60, Winbugs 98, Pentium III.<hr></blockquote>

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Sorry, but in my computer I only have replaced the old for the new exe... and everything was ok.

I will prepare a complete installation for the 1.1 Version... yea a new big file! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
But really this Version was working a lot better!

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

It could be also a problem with ZIP ! Could you first try to post your .exe without compression, please ?

And I have to thank you very much for this great tool, I appreciate it, really, yes indeed, I do.

For all the other longterm testers, FYI:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As for the longterm AI simulation, its possible but would take quite a
long time to run. We're considering it.

Aaron
<hr></blockquote>

Re: AI longtime simulation feature
 

Ok guys, I got the problem:
Because I'm using the commands to copy and rename the game save files, the path MUST be with the DOS format, it mean, only 8 characters for every folder!

You don't need to rename your folders... you only need to change the SE4 BATCH and SAVEGAME Path parameters, using the CONFIGURATION button.

If you have installed SE4 inside the standard folder, the path should be:

For the Se4 path:
C:\PROGRA~1\SHRAPN~1\MALFAD~1\SPACEE~1

For the Savegame path:
C:\PROGRA~1\SHRAPN~1\MALFAD~1\SPACEE~1\SAVEGAME

SORRY FOR THE PROBLEMS!

UPDATE VERSION 1.1

[ 28 March 2002: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[ 28 March 2002: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]</p>