Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

First of all, thanks for the magnificent job! It's got (almost) everything except the army standard kitchen sink.

However I noted a couple of things that are erroneous without a doubt.

Some units had "bad ammo" warnings (Weapon 93, 45mm L46 Gun).
Unit 366: BA-10 has sabot ammo
Unit 580: 45mm Coast Gun has sabot ammo
Probably should have more AP ammo instead? Or missing alternative ammo penetration figures?

Reserve sections have Orak teams (Unit 780) with X3 radio code: this probably will mess up the formations if fielded before M72 LAW was available, like 252 Reserve Platoon (1946-2020). Split Reserve Platoon into two formations, 1946-1995 and 1996-2020 maybe?

Unit 17: T-72M1S
Unit has carry capacity of 13 (also had this in 8.0). Finns don't ride on tanks in general and this should be 0.

Unit 354: T-54 KMT-5
Unit 410: T-54s PsvP
Unit 411: T-54s PsvP
This is a T-54-3 in mine rolling / close support role, but the changes done to unit 13 haven't been done to 354, 410 or 411.

Unit 400: CV9030S
Class was changed to Heavy APC, should be Heavy MRV APC (can protect passengers from 10 kg (22 lbs) of TNT exploded under track)


Then some less obvious and/or uncertain corrections:
BMP-2FIN laser range finder: there are no explicit mentions on the LRF but as the system is equipped to be "on par with CV90 shooting capabilities" it is most likely to be there.

M72 LAW upgrade (66 KES 12, M72 EC LAW Mk.I) missing, adding it is a major task and could probably wait until next bigger upgrade. Also in use now is the bunker buster version, 66 KES 12 RAK (M72 ASM RC).

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

I'll continue the notes for current (9.1) OOB here:

Finland has tested the F-18 MLU2 capabilities by firing three different types of JDAM glide bombs.

MLU2 was started in 2012 and by June 2015 half of the fleet has been upgraded. Now JDAM has been tested so maybe it's time to add the JDAM and JSOW-C to the arsenal. In 2016 the JASSM is to be in operational use.

1/2015: JDAMs in operational use
?/2015: JSOW-C (not fired yet?)
?/2016: JASSM

Sources:
"From the start of next year (2015) JDAM bombs will enter operational use with their over 10 km range.

- Additionally we will take into use JSOW glide bombs which range over 100 km. During 2016 the Air Force is meant to start phasing in JASSM missile operations. They range over 370 km, Heikkinen says."
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/ar...755225749.html

"Air Forces performed air-to-surface test firings in Rovajärvi firing range June 8th to 12th. The test firings were fired from Hornet (F-18) multipurpose jets using the JDAM bombs that were included in the new MLU2 life cycle upgrade."
FDF magazine Ruotuväki

AGM65D was apparently never purchased for Finnish Air Forces and BL755 CBU I haven't heard of. AGM65 Maverick was an option at one point but AFAIK it subsided as JDAM and friends entered the stage.

Sipri lists AIM-120C AMRAAM (2005), JDAM (2011) and AGM-158A JASSMASM (2013) in purchases (excluding Stinger here) from the US to Finland in 2005-2014. Before MLU2 the Finnish F-18 had limited air-to-surface capability and no designated weapoins for that.

http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade...e_register.php

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

I know I'm very late to your first post here, but, concerning UNIT 17 T-72M1S I don't believe Don is worried about the doctrine of any OOB, as much as the tanks ability and design factors to allow it to carry troops. Why if the the unit is capable of the carry would anyone want to take that away? What if you had a pinned unit at risk (Especially a core unit.) and you had no other unit available except a near by T-72M1S, I would think those troops would gladly risk extraction by tank vs. the alternative of not doing so. I've done it many times myself.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Pat

Making the one unit zero would put it in step with the majority modern era of Finn Tanks..............BUT the reason it has a carry capacity and the other modern era ones do not is that particular model does not have active protection devices in this case VRRSS the two other T-72M1S in the OOB have VRRSS and zero carry capacity just as unit 14----T-55AS HAS carry capacity and no VRRSS whereas unit 15---T-55MS HAS VRRSS and NO carry cap

It's got nothing to do with "Doctrine" if you know Finns don't ride on tank........ don't put them on tanks

Don

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Upgraded SPAAG Marksman was presented for the first time in public June 4th.

The platform has been upgraded but the turret looks from the outside pretty much the same apart from the thingy between the barrels. This box is missing from some of the units seen in pictures.

At the same display the SP-Mortar (Bv206 based) was presented for public.

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Quick addition: 40 KRKK 2005 (40mm AGL) can be installed on the same vehicle platform as 12.7 mm AAMG.
40 KRKK 2005 on mil.fi

"Voidaan käyttää sekä ajoneuvon kehälavetilta että tukikohtajalustalla" = "May be operated both on a vehicle platform and on a tripod"

That said, on XA-180/185 APCs the AGL is definitely an option and I suspect it is also the case on XA-203s as the AAMG uses a custom mount adapter to fit to Norwegian (NATO?) standard mount. (I operated 12.7mm AAMG on XA-180 as well as in terrain in FDF in 1999)

ADD
Copy of unit 049, XA-180. Replace gun: #242 and give 30 HE and 10 HEAT ammo. Radio code 91 (rare). Available 1/2005-12/2020
Copy of unit 050, XA-185. Replace gun: #242 and give 30 HE and 10 HEAT ammo. Radio code 91 (rare). Available 1/2005-12/2020
Copy of unit 051, XA-203. Replace gun: #242 and give 30 HE and 10 HEAT ammo. Radio code 91 (rare). Available 1/2005-12/2020

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

I found the probable source of AMOS + STRIX unit found in earlier OOBs.

In early 2006 Panssari-lehti ("Armour Magazine") wrote that each AMOS would be equipped with 4 STRIX rounds. However, since that things have progressed and IM/CM is confidential so it may or may not have materialized, probably never came to use.

About T-72 APFSDS ammunition I contacted Cpt Mika Mäenpää from Panssariprikaati and according to his recollection nothing newer than 3BM-17 or 3BM-15 ("125mm D81T 75/72") was never received to Finland. Also according to his knowledge, there is no public record apart from the old copies of Panssari-lehti mentioned earlier.

MODIFY
Unit 018 T-72M1S
Weapon 1: 101 - 125mm D81T 75
Unit 019 T-72M1S
Weapon 1: 101 - 125mm D81T 75

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Quick note: FDF presented modernized equipment in public today.

On the list (http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015...36327_uu.shtml, pics)
- Leopard 2A4 mine roller configuration
- SPAAG upgrade with Leopard 2 platform
- BMP-2M

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015...35752_uu.shtml
- M72 ("Orak") anti-bunker version "88 KES 12 RAK"
- New assault rifle with optics and night vision equipment capability (already used by Guard "for years already" as stated by the article)

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

FDF info PDF:
http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/a2...df?MOD=AJPERES

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Add
Leopard 2A4 URDAN
Copy unit 024
Possibly remove weapon 3 (AAMG) - although 2A6 doesn't list AAMG either.
Unit class: 36 - Mine clearing vehicle
Available: 1/2012 onwards (currently in service: modifications done 2010-2011)

ItPsv Leo2:
Copy unit 321
Update hull and top armour to match Leopard 2A4S. Update speed. Revise FC and RF numbers for the original as well; it has been told to be good enough even against low flying near Mach 1 speed aircrafts.

BV308:
Copy Swedish BV308 as is.

BV206 Mortar:
Add 81mm mortar similarly to unit 334 SP-Mortar for NA-140

Modify
Unit 033
Rename to BMP-2M
Available: 1/2016 onwards

XA-180M:
No modifications needed for current unit. XA-180 can maybe stand for both unit types.

Inf weapons related
KeS Orak upgrade, mentioned earlier. 6/2015 or 1/2016 onwards.
Increasing number of 7.62 RK + Opt (red dot sight 2009)
Optical sights (2014) for PKM LMG, night vision equipment enabled.

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Should say
"Copy German BV 206S as is." (Unit 382)

Should read:
Add LRF to old 1990 one (http://www.military-today.com/artillery/marksman.htm) and revise the FC, for example 110 from the German Gepard which is pretty close to ItPsv 90 Marksman.

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

REMOVE
Units 480, 481, 482: Nx60 Sissi Mtrs

The initial test batch of 60mm mortars was never extended to full order and certainly never got in the training. The reasons given were the inefficiency in snow, swamp and forest.

http://yhdistykset-akaa.fi/reservilaiset/krh.pdf
(Finnish Mortar history from WW I to 2014)
"Sen sijaan 1990-luvulla tehdyt kokeilut 60KRH97 ja 81KRH97 eivät onnistuneet lainkaan. "
"Contrary to the examples before the 1990's experiments of 60KRH97 (60mm Mortar 1997) and 81KRH97 (81mm Mortar 1997) were no success at all."

On discussion forum, http://maanpuolustus.net/threads/kra...6.3673/page-21
"60KRH97:n testeissä todettiin, että lumessa 60 mm:n sirpalekranaatti on lähinnä pierua vastaava ilmiö:)"
"On the tests of 60KRH97 it was found out that in snow the effect of the 60 mm frag grenade is mostly comparable to a fart:)"

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Quick note:

Finns have implemented mounting Aero M134D used primarily in NH-90 this time in RG-32.

Pictures from Para Jaegars training camp:
https://twitter.com/AMattola1/status/654703208980287488

(UTJR = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utti_Jaeger_Regiment)

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Quick notes (no SPMBT at hand, so no OOB unit numbers) on Finnish OOB:

No ATACMS or CM MLRS: http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...iles/76006562/

In 2008 Suomen Kuvalehti journal ran a story that the BUK SAM system is backdoored and vulnerable to electronic countermeasures: http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/koti...ljastui-aukko/
The concern seemed to be justified as FDF was quick to remove them from service and to find a replacement even though they were criticized of scrapping perfectly usable and efficient material. According to recent items this seems to be the case as this particular item was used as justification not to seek Russian aircrafts to replace the aging F-18 fleet.

MODIFY:
BUK-M1, end date 12/2012

REMOVE / SUSPEND:
M270 MLRS (CM, ATACMS) but not the mine version. When missiles are finally bought then add correct version.

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Quick follow-up on MLRS, no new information.

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...6401454951626/

The purchase nudged a bit forwards as the MOD approved the procurement. The missile types are GMLRS AW and GMLRS UNITARY. Unless they cancel it yet another time.

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Lots of small changes and corrections.


MODIFY

Unit 101 - 40mm AAG

This upgraded Bofors was storaged from the 80's until it was removed in early 90's (according to multiple sources), yet no accurate date or year is given. However, references to the big "scrapping orgy" have been stated, and other artillery pieces have been put to end date 1991-1993.

Last date available: 12/1993


Unit 103 - 57mm AAG Radar

The 57mm AAG was removed in 2000. The non-radar unit has been properly put to end at 12/2000, but this one wasn't included.

http://www.ilmatorjuntamuseo.fi/etusivu/tykit/

Last date available: 12/2000


Unit 201 - ITA Tuuli

The unfortunate hovercraft plan never went forward with the funding being cut off and the fleet left with only the unarmed prototype. It was storaged until a decision to scrap it was given in July 2013.

Last date available: 7/2013


Unit 205 - Igla Team

Missiles drive fuel expired and missiles were destroyed (replaced by Bolide missiles). No exact date given, but assumption of 20 years of shelf life -> 12/110

Last date available: 12/2010


Unit 210 - Bolide SAM

"Ilmatorjuntaohjus (05M):n varusmieskoulutus aloitettiin vuonna 2009."
"Anti-aircraft missile (05M) training started in 2009"
FDF site

Start date: 1/2009


Unit 321 - ItPsv 91 AA

This has been replaced with ItPsv Leo2 AA starting with 1/2016. It also had a laser range finder:

"Laseretäisyysmittarin mittausetäisyys on yli kahdeksan kilometriä."
"Laser range finder has a measuring distance of over eight kilometers."
http://web.archive.org/web/200709280...t/panssari.htm

Range finder: 22
Last date available: 12/2015


Unit 334 - Nasu SP-Mortar

Incorrect movement type Track, should be snowmobile as with other Nasu NA-140 units.

Movement type: 8 - Snowmobile


Unit 351 - ITO05 Unimog

ITO05 consists of vehicle firing platform and additional man protable platform connected to a shared radar. Therefore the 8 missiles available should be divided to 2 packs of 4 missiles.

"Varusmieskoulutus ilmatorjuntaohjus (05):llä aloitettiin vuonna 2007."
"Conscript training for AAM (05) commenced in 2007."
FDF site

Weapon 1 ammunition: 4
Weapon 2: copy of weapon 1
Start date: 1/2007


Unit 352 - Bandvagn RBS-70

No RBS-70 Mk2 in use, rename to Bandvagn Bolide and change weapon and start date to match unit 210. Also fix movement type to snowmobile.

Start date: 1/2009
Movement type: 8 - Snowmobile
Weapon 1: 138 - RBS-70 Bolide


Unit 357 - T-72M1 KMT-6 M2

T-72M1 was scrapped in 2006-2007. Other units have correct end dates but mine clearing version wasn't changed.

Last date available: 6/2007


REMOVE

Unit 207 - RBS-70 SAM

No RBS-70 Mk2 missiles were ordered beyond the initial test batch.

http://web.archive.org/web/200703142...stit/ito05.htm

"ITO2005 järjestelmän ohjus on RBS70 ohjusperheen uusin versio Bolide. Ohjuksen vaakaulottuvuus on kahdeksan ja pystyulottuvuus kuusi kilometriä ja siinä on sekä isku- että herätesytytin. Herätesytyttimellä on kyky havaita myös pienet maalit ja sen toimintaa voidaan halutessa viivästyttää toimittaessa suurta maalia vastaan. Tuhovaikutus perustuu esisirpaloituun taistelulataukseen sekä ontelopanoksen suunnattuun räjähdysvaikutukseen. ITO2005 järjestelmällä voidaan ampua myös muita RBS70 perheen ohjustyyppejä kuten MK1 ja MK2."
"ITO2005 system uses the newest version of RBS70 family, Bolide, as it's missile. The horizontal reach is eight and vertical 6 kilometers and it has both impact as well as proximity fuse. Proximity fuse is capable of detecting also small targets and it can be delayed if acting against a larger target. The delivery is a prefragmented HE and directed explosively formed penetrator. ITO2005 can also fire other RBS-70 family missile types such as MK1 and MK2"

(Sipri data)

(150) RBS-70 Mk-3 Bolide Portable SAM 2002 2005-2007 (150) $30 m deal (part of $120 m deal for ASRAD-R SAM systems)
(200) RBS-70 Mk-3 Bolide Portable SAM 2007 2008-2010 (200) SEK600 m ($85 m) deal
(100) RBS-70 Mk-3 Bolide Portable SAM (2009) 2012 (100) EUR26 m deal


ADD

Units
ItPsv Leo2 mentioned earlier in this topic. In service use from 1/2016
81mm Bv206 SP-Mortar, in service use from 1/2016
Bv308 (a.k.a. Bv206S), taken into service (in 2015?). 7.62mm MMG as the main weapon.
http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/a2...df?MOD=AJPERES


New weapons choices for basic units.
M72LAW EC, in use (2015?). Improved penetration.
LMG optics for 7.62 PKM, in use (2015?)
http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/a2...df?MOD=AJPERES

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

These will be the last OOB changes I will accept before the next patch is released for either of the games. I have more than enough to do as it is

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

One final question before I start collecting data for the next round (OOB v10): To ease your work before submitting anything unusable to the forum, how should the Finnish Fighter-Bomber aircrafts be looked at?

After Paris peace treaty, the allied forces - heavily influenced by USSR - forbid Finland from having bombers (among others) until Finland after the re-unification of Germany withdrew from the parts of treaty limiting conventional arms. In 2015 Finland declared that it now had the bombing capability for the first time since 1945. There are fighter-bombers in Finnish OOB, so are they treated as "would could should" as in during the war the peace treaties are forgotten and it's back to business as usual or should the Finnish OOB be stripped of any bombers? Also, most of the aircrafts of OOB that have bombs or rockets didn't have them in real life.

I'll revise the F-18 fleet at least, but your decision will affect if I will submit corrections to the earlier aircrafts as well.

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

..The treaty covered aircraft with internal bomb bays the F-18 has EXTERNAL hardpoints and if an aircraft had those they are capable of bombing and had a real conflict erupted how long do you think it would take to place explosive ordnance on those wings ? Moot point given the treaty did not cover aircraft of that type. And given that the restictions don't apply to the F-18 WHY would you change any thing except to micromanage ordnance combinations? The only aircraft in the OOB with INTERNAL bomb bays was sold to Finland by Russia and there were only 4 of them and two were target tugs

Given the time period covered by the game and the total lack of any armed conflict involving Finland, Finlands inclusion in the game is a "would could should" as it is for many of the nations....the entire game is a what if "would could should"

Strange given the number of Finns who have contributed to that OOB over the years that's it's only now an "issue.,

If you have different ideas there is the mods forum... but I see no reason to change anything as there were no treaty limitations on fighter-bombers with external hard points. Were you SERIOUSLY going to suggest Finn aircraft be stripped of bombs ??

Don

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

F-18 isn't what's the matter here - the restrictions applied 1947-1991. The treaty limited bombers with internal bays but in effect Finland had no bombing capability for the period and air forces never trained it until recent F-18 JDAM tests.

My beef was mostly the BL755 CBU and then the rocket pods which were common in Mig 21 bis but which Finland didn't possess. And as I know it is all speculation and that "it has always been there" that is exactly why I asked if any input is wanted.

I'll let the old stuff pass and just concentrate on the F-18 fleet. I'll wait for the next version so that anything that's already on the list won't appear in here.

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

We keep telling people this is a GAME not a SIMULATION but it doesn't seem to matter that IMHO formed over a couple of decades of playing that people buy air assets ( when they even bother to........ ) they are looking for something that drops things that go bang and only very select few really care if the things that go bang are named correctly or may be a slightly different size than we attached of that nation whatever doesn't have 359 kg bombs it has 325 kg bombs.

OK your " beef" is mainly with the cluster bombs......fair enough I can replace them easily enough but why don't you give me a hint what would make you happy ..(1000lb JDAM ? )...the opportunity is now -------so I don't have to got through this again NEXT year and it saves me combing through translated Finn websites to find out something that you obviously already know

Re: Finnish OOB 9.0 corrections
 

Modify
Unit: 454 - Valmet Hawk
Replace weapon BL755 CBU with:
Weapon 2: 196 - 250kg Bomb, HE: 2
End date: 12/2015

Unit: 457 - Valmet F-18
Replace weapon BL755 CBU with:
Weapon 2: 196 - 250kg Bomb, HE: 2
Weapon 3: 196 - 250kg Bomb, HE: 2
End date: 12/2015

Unit: 458 - Valmet F-18
Replace weapon BL755 CBU with:
Weapon 3: 196 - 250kg Bomb, HE: 2
End date: 12/2015

Unit: 459 - Valmet F-18
JDAM, JSOW capability from 2015 on[1][2]
Start date: 6/2015
Weapon 2: AGM-154, HE: 2
Weapon 3: AGM-154, HE: 2
Weapon 4: 500 lb JDAM (USMC weapon #212), HE:2

Unit: 460 - Valmet F-18
Start date: 1/2015
Weapon 2: 1000 lb JDAM (USMC weapon #214), HE:2
Weapon 3: 1000 lb JDAM (USMC weapon #214), HE:2
Weapon 4: -

Unit: 461 - Valmet F-18
Start date: 1/2015
Weapon 2: 500 lb JDAM (USMC weapon #212), HE:2
Weapon 3: 500 lb JDAM (USMC weapon #212), HE:2
Weapon 4: -

Unit: 462 - Valmet F-18
Start date: 1/2015
Weapon 2: 2000 lb JDAM (mk84), HE:2
Weapon 3: 2000 lb JDAM (mk84), HE:2
Weapon 4: -

All F-18's to retain Vulcan cannon as #1

JSOW is also delivered and carried (pics) but not yet live fired.

JASSM has been ordered but not yet received: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...8811449245352/
Therefore JASSM not included in here, but will probably appear during this year or the beginning of 2017.

[1] http://www.lentoposti.fi/uutiset/ilm...ommeja_lapissa

"Viikon aikana pudotettiin Boeingin valmistaman JDAM-pommin eri versioita GBU-38, GBU-32 ja GBU-31 (Guided Bomb Unit)."
"During the week FAF dropped different versions of Boeing JDAM bombs GBU-38, GBU-32 and GBU-31."

"JDAM-pommit ovat Ilmavoimien käytössä olevia GPS-ohjautuvia täsmäpommeja. Niiden taistelukärkenä toimii joko Mk84-sirpalepommi (GBU-31V1), Mk83-sirpalepommi (GBU-32), Mk82-sirpalepommi (GBU-38) tai BLU-109 -tunkeumapommi (GBU-31V3)."
"JDAM bombs are FAF used GPS guided precision munitions. Their warheads include either Mk84 fragmentation bomb (GBU-31V1), Mk83 fragmentation bomb (GBU-32), Mk82 fragmentation bomb (GBU-38) or BLU-109 penetration bomb (GBU-31V3)."

[2] http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/ar...000826014.html
"Lapin lennoston hävittäjälentolaivue 11. komentaja everstiluutnantti Aki Heikkinen kertoo, että ilmasta-maahan-asejärjestelmän päivitys etenee vaiheittain. Ensi vuoden alusta lähtien operatiivisessa valmiudessa ovat JDAM-pommit, joiden kantama on yli 10 kilometriä.
- Lisäksi käyttöön tulevat JSOW-liitopommit, joiden kantama on yli 100 kilometriä. Vuoden 2016 aikana ilmavoimien on tarkoitus aloittaa vaiheittain JASSM-ohjusten käyttöönotto. Niiden kantama on yli 370 kilometriä, Heikkinen sanoo."

"Colonel Aki Heikkinen of Lapland air base tells, that the air-to-ground upgrade is phased. From the beginning of next year (=2015) the JDAM is in operative capability with their over 10 km range.
- Also the JSOW glide bombs will be taken into use with their over 100 km range. During 2016 Air Force has a plan to start phasing in JASSM missiles. Their range is over 370 km, Heikkinen says."