AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

In scenario #456, Makin Atoll, the US forces have CS and light tanks with max armor penetration of 8 (L31 75mm) and 6 (L57 37mm) respectively. Yet on a number of occasions they were able to take out bunkers and pillboxes with minimum side armor of 12 (or higher) from the flank or rear (where armor is even thicker). The tanks don't have sabot or HEAT, so how is this possible? Thanks.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

At close range, lucky shot with AP ammo can hit a weak spot, resulting in a bonus to the penetration.

Also, bunkers can take damage also from hits that do not penetrate, representing a lucky bullet passing though a slit and hitting somebody inside. Thus it is possible to take out bunkers with small arms fire - though it will require a whole lot of shooting.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

OK thanks. After rechecking the facing of bunkers and pillboxes I can count only one specific instance in which a tank indisputably did that, passing a 75mm AP (or even 37mm--they're pretty accurate) through 12 cm of pillbox armor. The other shots were probably through the front turret armor of only 4 cm (or lucky shots into the gun slit).

What threw me off was the double placement of log bunkers facing in different directions. Once an M3A5 CS blew away an adjacent bunker from the front. It then spent two turns blasting away at the side "armor" of its buddy in the same hex with little effect. At the time I was scratching my head in puzzlement, but in fact it was 'cuz that bunker faced AWAY from my armored behemoth. Simple yet obscure, eh?

Anyway sorry for the kipper. Just goes to show how easy it is to draw false conclusions before checking out the details. Thanks again and happy gaming!

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

With tanks, it is in my experience to engage MG bunkers from the front, if you do not need to be particularly concerned about their return fire.

For the infantry to take out a bunker from the front with small arms fire is not particularly recommendable, since it is likely to require massive amounts of shooting and the return fire is likely to be deadly. So it is preferable to pop smokes and try to sneak up into a flanking position for close assault. Clever opponents (and scenario designers) probably try to make such outflanking manoeuvers difficult by clever placing of minefields and supporting bunkers with overlapping fields of fire.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Sorry again to resurrect an old thread, but in a Russian LC battle T-34/85s with max pen of 16 took out two pillboxes with side and rear thickness of 22 on the first or second shot. Not that I'm complaining, but it seems improbable to get "lucky" hits twice out of three. Just wondering, thanks.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

You don't say what year or month or exactly which ammo was fired but it's certainly possible that the pen coupled with a situation where you get a bit more penetration from the shot due to random factors that this would happen.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

It was in Kurland, Latvia in October of '44. The armor rating for the PBs was (front, side rear):

Hull-10, 20, 22
Turret-3, 22, 24

Only one tank definitely had a side/rear shot from just adjacent; the other was behind the PB's LOS but may have hit the front from an oblique position at a couple hundred meters. Sorry didn't catch the message for either one.

Anyway no biggie. Thanks for your kind attention and prompt reply.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

......and in Oct 44 T34/85s have limited sabot ammo that have penetration that approaches those values. As well the game has a host of random factors built in so it's NOT predictable and I'm betting if you had that turn saved from before that event then ran the turn again the next day after rebooting your computer you would not get the same results. Also, AFAIK fortification armour is not treated the same way as vehicle armour , there is a wider chance of results.

That said I will run some tests as time allows and see if anything seems off since I last tested this

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

FWIW in a current LC battle as Germans a platoon of 5 Panthers kept blasting a couple Russian pillboxes with 30 or 40 shots each from the flank w/o effect save suppression. It wasn't 'til the Panthers got in front of them at about 6-700 meters range where the armor rating was 4/10 that the PBs finally succumbed. With flanks and rear of 18 or 20 there was no other logical way except lucky hits to get them.

So apparently my earlier experience was irregular. Cheers.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

While it is not directly simulated in the game, the "host of other random factors" can also be envisioned to represent that even if a fired round does not penetrate a bunker wall, that wall will have taken some kind of structural stress. After repeated hits it is plausible that the protection would fail no matter the listed armor value but only as a random unpredictable event.
Which reminds of of the famous M1-1abc 90mm "Knock-Knock" round. By the late 1970s the M67 90mm recoil-less rifle was regarded as marginal in bunker busting the new generation Soviet type of defenses along the Iron Curtain. The M1-1abc round was developed as a two stage wooden projectile in a sabot. the gunner would load the M1-1abc round first, ahead of a M371A1 HE round and aim for a weak spot such as a door.
The twin wooden projectiles, being lighter would travel faster after discarding their sabot and arrive at the target before the HE round. Inside the bunker the enemy would hear "Knock Knock" and when they opened the door to see who it was the HE round would come in.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Bunkers are already treated as not 100% proof - some effect from non-penetrating hits does "leak through" and kill defenders. But bunker crews are usually quite large...

With AP, it is best to manoeuvre till you get a shot at the weakest face - which is usually the firing slit at the front. AP has less HE kill effect, so if knocking on the sides He works best - try using e,g the SU-152 that has an all-HE load-out.

In MBT, bunkers are suicide machines from the time that 105mm APDS etc is common since the penetration scores of those over-match most field fortifications, though there are some "fortress" types with high defences. In MBT. If defending then about the only bunker type I look at is the ones with the 360 degree HMG as a good suppressor while they last and use those to protect a few with a Milan or similar, with TI vision. In WW2, the AT bunkers with a decent ATG are my go-to items, if thee is somewhere to plonk them with a good field of fire, and hopefully the enemy wont cover them with smoke (the simple counter till you get ones with TI in MBT).

The main advantage of bunkers though is that they do resist an artillery preparatory bombardment rather well, better than troops in trenches other than a fire trench/AT Ditch. So if your regular opponent likes to "mow the lawn" with a creeping barrage, they can be handy. But using the points on mines or dragons teeth is probably a better investment until those that can see through smoke arrive.

In WW2, a section of 2 Marders which will dig in, and can then move to react to the enemy (if the barrage does not do them in!) is maybe even better.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Noticed earlier posts mentioned long campaigns, if you have one or 2 tanks with high experience these are your bunker busters.
90 plus experience close up stationary firer you stand a good chance of a critical hit after a few shots at the same target.
Same goes for engineers with FT demo charges, do not move and attack in the same turn, a bit of patience pays dividends.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Sorry to be a pain about this but in a just-completed battle as Brits vs Italians in late 1940 a couple Matilda IIs with max PEN of 7, no APCR, took out bunkers from the side and rear with armor values of 20 for both. In this save the tank at Hex 32,46 has just taken out the one at Hex 39,40. The previous turn its mate (now at Hex 31,44) took out the one at 33,43 from the rear:

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Bunkers are not like vehicles with regard to armour even small arms fire can penetrate and kill those manning it if your lucky.

Not looked at your save but continuous close fire at a bunker normally creates a critical hit pretty quickly.

An experienced crew firing stationary from 1 or 2 hexes have a high probability of a quick kill. Same goes for high experience troops armed with demo or flame so long as you wait for them to be stationary before attacking.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

There's no opening at the side or rear. How can AP rounds with max pen of 7 get through 20cm of steel at 4 or 500 meters with one or two shots each? Infantry was not a factor.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Bunkers are not steel - they are concrete, logs or earthworks considered permeable to fire in the SP universe. Even rifle fire will cause occasional casualties to a maginot line type mega-bunker.

They are really just field works in this game rather than say the sort of WW1 type of deep bunker that could resist a Somme type barrage over weeks. A "SP WW1" Somme bombardment would kill everything in such a fortified line in a game hour or 2.

That is probably done for game play balance - you would have to ask the original SSI team as to why. The same applies to the ease of clearing tactical obstacles like wire and mines, DT etc.

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Think splinters. When those small (or big) rounds hit the side/rear of a concrete, log, brick or whatever bunker, there will be nasty things flying around inside that death hole. The only place I have read about using 'steel' was on Iwo Jima where the Japanese used 'steel' doors to hide their guns behind in caves.

Random stuff happens in this game and I love it. Had a Stug IIIE once get 3 kills in one turn, then could not hit anything the for 5 turns and then got whacked by some hidden Russian AT gun. Great fun stuff!

Also, had a CG I created where the Russians had bunkers, and I shell the crap out of them but it took to long for me to cross the river and when I got across to my surprise they started shooting at me, had to bring the tanks across and shoot them to kill them, took a couple of turns. One was really pesky, had it surrounded by 3 squads and two Pz II's and a Pz III and it finally died after 3 to 4 turns. Had another that took one shot from a 20mm and it got a critical hit. Love the randomness and the realism this game offers!

Re: AP vs Bunker/Pillboxes
 

Thanks for the explications folks. They've convinced me to drop any objections to combat results with bunkers. Carry on and have a great day. Cheers!