What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Steel Panthers (and his descendants) is certainly the most complete and the most successful of all times tactical wargame. The fact that an active community continues to play it and to develop it almost 20 years after its creation is the proof that it is well about « the wargame of the century » …

None of the games which tried to supplant it (Close Combat serie, HPS games, Heroes of Stalingrad and even the last project of Matrix Games) are not of its level.

However, we are all conscious that this designed game about 20 years ago with a DOS technology reached its limits in term of possible development of the game engine . The graphics are ageing, the interface is impractical and badly adapted to the current screen resolutions, it is almost impossible to play a multiplayer game without resorting to the PBEM, which is binding.
These difficulties reduce every day a little more the size of our community of enthusiasts.

Nevertheless, the enormous work of the volunteers who did not stop improving the program, the graphics, the scenarios and the campaigns cannot, does not, fall into oblivion little by little.

This game has to have a future …

What can he be?

4 ways are possible:

1 - The game disappear little by little, as so many others before it.
It would be an infinite sadness that to see disappearing slowly one of the most successful games which I was able to play in my career of wargamer.

2 - A development studio deals with the question and modernize the game to resell it in a box version (as the fact at present Matrix Games, for example).
Until now no studio looked interested to resume this game while, strangely, games more confidential were it.

3 - A community of passionate voluntary developers rewrite completely the program and redo all the graphics of the game. This one is distributed then free of charge (as it is the case today with WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2).
When we see all the work already realized by the enthusiasts of the community, we cannot imagine to ask them to supply with it even more free of charge.

4 - A mixture of the solutions 2 and 3 would be to raise funds through CrowFunding to motivate a development studio of to be worked in association with the current community to get back the existing and professionalize it.
It is at present a very fashionable solution to launch the project and that allows to make sure that a product will have a real commercial outlet by the implication of its future buyers. This solution would be totally adapted to a project such as that of the modernization of Steel Panthers. It would have the merit to preserve the enormous already made work and to enlarge the community of the enthusiasts by the attraction aroused by a modern look (There is only to see the success of Panzer Corps which is nothing else than a modernization of Panzer General, or the craze hallucinating on behalf of occasional players for games as World Of Tanks).
Because we are in the modernity, we could completely envisage a system of deployment of type Free To Play with paying contents to improve the gaming experience or the progress in the game.

I think that the best future which could arrive at Steel Panthers is this fourth solution. If we are enough to think of it, it will be sensible to count to know how many of us will be ready to invest in CrowFunding and how many others will be ready to pay for a modernized version of this game.

Please, give your point of view onto this crucial question.

(Sorry for my approximate English, I am French …)

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

You do raise some interesting possibilities, however these are somewhat constrained by the fact that the developers are under contractual obligation to SSI and hence its successors not to reveal the code to anyone else, this being a condition of their being gifted the code.

Regards,
Warwick

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

SSI does not exist anymore per se. However, you are correct that the copyright holders (Ubisoft) would have to be contacted and negotiated with; something I'm not sure they want to commit to in the near future if ever. I'm fairly certain that Ubisoft is not interested in reviving a moribund series that is not going to bring in big bucks.

Incidentally, Matrix Games has talked a little about doing something with the "other" Steel Panthers, so that seems like the only likelihood of a new game in the next couple years. But I wouldn't hold your breath. Just enjoy what Don and Andy have given us and see what way the wind blows.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

While updated versions of the Steel Panthers games would be welcome indeed the problem is no publisher is going to support it. They all KNOW (and let's not get into what they think they know) the only games that sell are FPS-MMOs (first person shooter massive multi-player online) or rude and crude slaughter-fests (Saints Row or Grand Theft Auto) type games. So likely the only real hope would be a Kickstarter.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

I think the problem is not in the game.
Is that few players willing to study this kind of games. Because I really have to study and understand it well it takes years, more has cost me because I only speak Spanish.
Maybe that's another point. No translation into Spanish and is losing some Spanish-speaking customers.
In a Spanish forum there are about 5 or 6 players playing a campaign.:D

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Yep. Unless enough people are willing to chip in I'm afraid the hex- and turn-based wargame is all but doomed. It's been fun while it lasted though, and the game ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Wargaming of this kind will always survive as it traditionally has: as a specialist periphery. But that may mean your favorite titles (Steel Panthers etc) may not get a new installment for a long time if ever. Its different audiences and different time scales than most computer games. We're dealing with an inherently niche product and a limited audience.

Besides, the fact we're even still talking about it 20 something years later is proof enough there's no reason to despair just yet. I think the old girl has some life left in her current form.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Take the software to the limits of the program and Andy and Don. Then in this very "busy multitasking" world offer the player a communications app (headset) with the ability for them to stream their texts onscreen to other players. Then someone can get on NetFlix with a show playing the game and acting stupid like the one my grand daughter watches now for Minecraft.

Regards,
Pat

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

I don't understand what you mean, Pat...

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Simply software issue as everyone has discussed, headset issue is an idea similar PS3/4, XBOX and most PC based RPG platforms. In this case an option to talk to your opponent during a PBEM game or an issue in the forum in the threads if you want to chat with someone that's online at the time. The texting was sarcasm as everyone feels the need to do every minute of every hour. I love the guys who do that while standing at the urinal or sitting on the toilet. My wish is to see them drop it while "taking care of business", I love my technology however, I use my "Trac-Fone maybe 5 minutes a month. Almost 13 years after retiring from the Navy and being almost as "intimate" as I was with my wife, with all manner of USN supplied phones in my house (STU-III classified "Bat phone" if you will.) and personal phones I just made a clean break when I retired from the military. That stuff I leave to CINCLANTHOME to deal with. Well you probably don't have NetFlix it's a very big Internet TV and streaming service here. One of the channels on there has three people acting like "donkeys" either living streaming or recorded playing all manner of the game "MINECRAFT" and all you do is watch on whatever "device" you're using making you pretty much "MINDLESS" and that's the best explanation I can offer you.
And now to get ready for work, have a great weekend!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

I started this project in 1998 because the original designers went down a path I didn't care to follow ( SP3 ) and they showed no interest in updating the more popular versions (SP and to a lessor extent SP2) so we adapted SP2 to WW2 game play which opened up a number of new features that were included in SP2 but missing from the original.The original intent was a one time mod then get on with life. 17 years later we're still at it. And I have NO DOUBT we were provided the code in the expectation we would fail .......what could two guys really do?........ SURPRISE.

Point by point

1/ Nothing lasts forever.That's inevitable but we are already into a second generation of players and the numbers we see for free DL's and sales show interest in the game has NOT lessen even when we look back half a decade or more and it's not showing any signs of dropping off yet. Maybe we don't have as vibrant a PBEM section as we used to but I'm a game developer and have little interest or talent for cheerleading the game. Not really a "people person" but that should be obvious


2/ We don't have Call of Dutys numbers and I never expected to.The market for a wargame where people are required to actually think is really very small . The "Golden Age" for games like this peaked in the 90's ( though there are new titles released every year ) when the "serious" game companies learned there is no serious money in it and when there is no money in it the investment in time and talent does not get made. It's a niche market and always will be


3/ 'A community of passionate voluntary developers rewrite completely the program and redo all the graphics of the game" I know this was written seriously and please don't take this the wrong way but .............HA ! --------If there actually was "A community of passionate voluntary developers" we'd all know about it by now..............they DON'T EXIST. All the real talent is scooped up and are producing as Suhiir says " FPS-MMOs or.......rude and crude slaughter-fests". If you could actually find lets say 3 or 4 actual SP fan programmers willing to put in the kind of hours Andy and I have to re-write SP into a "modern" game what you would have is 4 or 5 people who all have different ideas on what would make the "perfect" "SP revisted" it would soon devolve into chaos unless you had a strong willed team leader with a wide skill set ( and infinite reserves of patience and tact ) then you'd need 3D graphics artists and once again if there was an abundace of those they would have stepped up by now . What's left are people looking for other people to step up and re-do all the work while complaining how dated the game looks now or that an Icon is a few pixels out. I like it just fine but there are things I would do differently if we didn't still support 640x480 or if we were just trying to make the game pretty for widescreen users.......but we support the old formats and there are people who appreciate that we do . I would be interest to hear how the interface is "impractical and badly adapted to the current screen resolutions" the games play just fine on my 1920 x 1080 screen and that was just a dream resolution in 1998
.

4/ see 2/ and 3/. NOBODY is going to invest the kind of money required to create a new and improved SP that MIGHT sell at best half the sales in a year that call of duty does on the first hour of the first morning of its first day of release and the ONLY way you get "volunteers" to work like rented mules for someone elses vision is if they share it and as I have already said if they existed we'd all know about it by now but if you'd like to get the ball rolling be my guest but NOBODY gets our code. If you want a new Steel Panthers from the ground up you get to start the old fashioned way....with an idea and a blank screen.....thats the only way to "start fresh" but the learning curve is Matterhorn steep.

:angel


Don

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

From what I understand there will be a new version of Steel Panthers by Gary Grigsby (the same guy that did the original DOS SSI version). It was posted here, on these forums in 2015 or 2014. Since no one mentioned it since then, it could be just a rumor.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Well if he does it'll be the first game I've bought since buying SP3 but the list of things he wants to do that come before that is quite long ( if as you say this isn't just a rumour )

• War in the East 2.0 - a remake of War in the East using the War in the West engine and new map system (another building block foe the mega game).
• War in the West 1940 (France/Norway/Med)
• War in the West 1941-43 (Mediterranean)
• War in Europe - the largest game ever conceived!
• World at War: A World Divided – iPad
• Tactical WWII game ala Steel Panthers - Gary mentioned Steel Panthers was the game he most enjoyed creating in his career.

and I think that "ala Steel Panthers " is significant and there is nothing about it at the 2by3 games website that I can find

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

....................or forget the "team approach" and big game companies and find one highly motivated and skilled programmer with a couple years to spare who's ideas on the "perfect tactical wargame " matches everybodys expectations


Don

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

I don't know where we are on maintaining a steady or growing Steel Panthers population or if, in fact, there's a slow steady decline in participation. My interest remains stronger than ever since Don and Andy got involved and created what the game is today compared to the frustrating, highly-flawed DOS version of yore.
As long as winSPMBT and winSPWW2 continue to "evolve" I will purchase each improved box edition. This is my small way of supporting the game and the people who are part of the Steel Panthers worldwide family. Thanks, all!:)

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Well,one the most popular turn based games online and PBEM is one that has stood the test of time is the age old game of "Chess"
I like to think Steel Panthers will also, my son has found a interest in the game and we PBEM.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

The only other series that ever came within an inch of capturing the same feeling for me was the Close Combat series. But that series has always suffered from too many different design visions and an inconsistancy across the board, while WINSPWW2 and WINSPMBT have had a consistant design team ever since the Windows version was launched. We might fret about the OOB's and TOE's and this and that, at this point the game has been functionally complete for years and years. We're just inventing new reasons to annoy Don and Andy by now, like they need it. :D

But something this series has always done for me that nothing else has allowed is to capture the entire picture of the war, from the individual man to Regimental level and allow you to explore it in any shape, size or dimension you see fit. Whether its a daring airlanding on Crete in 1941 or Japanese tankers desperately trying to break through in Burma in 1944 or even the Spanish Civil War, you can at least make some attempt to model every concievable conflict in the alloted time span. Virtually every other tactical WW2 wargame I've played, including my beloved Close Combat, only allows for a snapshot. Whether its just of one front or even a single month out of a year.

Nothing else comes close to SP, and until Gary Grigsby himself steps up, Don and Andy will keep my attention for the forseeable future.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Like gila and his son, my son and I play winSPMBT even though he is now in his twenties and played first Steel Panthers WW2 in it's original format and all of the subsequent versions including winSPMBT and winSPWW2. Steel Panthers with all of the improvements that have been made continues to "have legs," I think-and will be with us evolving for years to come. When winSPMBT and winSPWW2 reach a point where improvements are no longer made I'll have the CD version available to play many, many years going forward. So those of you who download the free versions rather than buy the CD versions I would encourage you to buy the game(s)! Do this to support Steel Panthers overall and do it for your own peace-of-mind should development ever end, as it inevitably will.:angel

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Gila,
We've had our "times" out here, but, I agree with everything Wiking, Paderborn and you've said. And besides I'm a sucker for family. The CD point made is a very good one and I would highly recommend it as well. I got them only for the "playable" options you get in the patches, though I've never used any of the editing type functions except maybe twice to change a "battle map", I'm just not that person. But isn't that the beauty of this game in the first place? It's not perfect but, then, no game or platform is, but this game(s) allows more then most, to let it be what you want it to be and use as such. And can you ask for more than that in anything you do or want?

See what happens when you get some sleep!?! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

:up:Thanks guys

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

"Not really a "people person" but that should be obvious.."

Yes, you're our favorite @ssh0le :D

And if it hasn't been said enough, I'll say it again - many thanks to you and Andy for all you've done for this game!

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Well.....,favorite? Don't know about that!;)

Kidding, of course.:D

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Above all, let me clarify some points on my words:

As I said it, I do not speak English very well and it is possible that I did not understand all the subtleties of what you write. Also it is possible that my rough translation can be badly interpreted.

The work realized by Don and Andy is absolutely extraordinary and allowed to develop this game of a way we would not have been able to dream. From this point of view, the passage to the Windows version with the possibility of using the native resolution of our screens was a major step forward for the comfort of game (contrary to SPWAW who stays 800x600 pixels there).

I would never have rather strong words to thank you for it.

I have read all your comments and it is not a problem if the game does not evolve in the future ; it is already great such as it is.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Don't beat yourself up, bongo. Your detailed, considered forums letter generated a good amount of discussion in the forums community. That's not at all a bad thing! Thanks!:D

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Andy & Don,

THANKS for keeping this game alive & well. I feel that this is one of the GREATEST tactical strategy games for pc ever created. I've bought both cd versions of spmbt & spww2. I will gladly contribute financially to the support of these games in the future in what ever direction they go. I discovered this game in 2005 and have been playing it ever since.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Having replayed extensively recently, and especially having reinstalled my old Steel Panther CD of the 90s to compare, I was able to measure the path which you traveled from a graphic point of view and I revise my opinion compared with my first post here.

With some personal improvements and by using the current technology to magnify the graphics (I found a method to make best use of the qualities of the Retina screen of my Mac for example), it is clear that this game supports finally even the comparison with what is made today.

And as none of his competitors manages to return the unique gameplay of this game, it is clear that it has another future in front of him in the shape which is its today. I just had to open my spirit, to see beyond appearances...

And, of course that I bought the CD version of these 2 games, I do not even understand as every fan of wargame did not make it, given the rarity of such games on the computing games market.

By the way, and if it is not a secret, Don and Andy, could you tell us how much download and sales of CD are made every year of these games. That would allow us to realize whom we are not that a quite small number of fans.

Thanks

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Sorry. We are not going to give out that information but under no circumstances are we getting rich off the sales of the game. Lets say it's somewhere between "Beer money" and rent of a ( very ) modest apartment .

Don

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

It was not for that, I am not interested in the "money" aspect, but rather to estimate how much players we are at the moment (this is why I spoke of grouping the 2 figures - downloads and paids)

I did not want to be inquisitive but I am just curious to know if we are some tens or hundreds or thousands or more... players around the world.
An order of magnitude would be enough for me widely.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

well my answer means " not that much in the big scheme of things" If you take the number of free downloads in account there are thousands of players. How many are active is unknown as are how many DLs of the free version from Mirror sites so the vast majority of players are not full version customers.

Don

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

And consider good that I regret it. They do not maybe know what they miss by playing only on the free version of the game.
As I said it before, nothing that for the graphic improvements in game and the possibility of sorting out the encyclopedia, that is widely worth the asking price.

That there is a free version is a good thing so that the players discover an atypical game, but it is morally necessary to buy it if we play it regularly... At least, it is my opinion.

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

Totally agree with the moral issue.

On another hand, and without any intent to stir discussion around the following, i saw this post where supposedly a new "spiritual successor" for Steel Panthers is on the horizon under the name "Steel Tigers" being developed by Gary Grigsby, Joel Billings and Keith Brors:

http://www.wargamer.com/Article/10196

No matter the time it take for a public beta to come out, it won't be easy to outrank and displace WINSPWW2 & WINSPMBT from their deserved spot on the tactical wargaming genre no matter on how many other platforms the "game" is implemented. I've read articles where the tabletop grognards and early 80's computer game designers asked themselves similar questions in regards to platform option when computer wargaming was starting to pick some pace. :pc:

Re: What future for Steel Panthers?
 

One thing I miss on WinSPMBT: the weapons that can be mounted on vehicle while unit is a passenger and that will be unloaded when the unit is not. Most of the cases are ATGMs and AAMGs that are more powerful fighters when on foot compared to being on top of a tin can. But on the other hand, tin can is way faster!