confusing Artillery overload score
 

I fought a "special battle" after a decisive victory. I was not in a defend because no mines/obstacles could be purchased. Felt like a delay battle (slaughter is a better explanation because of the artillery...)

I had (9) 105mm light Artillery guns off map for use. My opponent got a whopping 722 points for overload.

My opponent had (4) 4.5 Inch guns and (30) 25 pounder guns off map and (12) 25 pounder guns on map for a total of 46 guns! I got a lousy 274 points for overload.

Can someone explain that?

my total force value was about 4000 points for the battle.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Greetings gdpsnake. If this was an advance/delay battle then it seems your award for opponent's overload was insufficient. Either that, or you're confusing what one player is being awarded for the OTHER's overload. Have you completed the battle and checked the results screen?

Even for some of us grizzled SP veterans the arty overload took some getting used to, but it goes a long way towards restoring play balance to many scenarios.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

In a delay type battle your overload threshold is 15% - for a 4000 point force this is 600 points - and the award is 50% of the overspend.

A German 105mm Howitzer costs around 30 points at base experience (9x30 = 270) - so not enough to give any points! Are you sure you dont have 9 batteries of guns? Or a bunch of mortars you forgot about? Units bought with support points count. Also remember Ammo units count against your artillery overload threshold.

As Jivemi points out, you may well be reading the numbers the wrong way around - I often do on the turn 1 report - check the results screen.

Personally I love the overload system makes balancing forces easier and fairer.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

I had 9 total 10.5 cm guns off board; not batteries, just nine guns. No mortars or anything though I did buy (6) 75mm on board IG guns with munitions with the scenario 'extra' points. The 9 10.5's were part of my core force but are Off board assets which do cost more than on board assets (a battery of (3) 10.5cm's cost about 500 points each?) So I can possibly see the opponent's point award based on 15%

I checked and am ABSOLUTELY certain I was awarded 274 points to my score and the AI was awarded 722 points to it's score for overload.

But, only 274 awarded to me for the AI's ENORMOUS purchase?!
I checked the enemy roster and the total was 46 total guns. (30) Off Board 25 pounders and (4) 4.5 inch artillery and (12) on board 25 pounders. That alone costs more than 7000 points!

You can imagine the slaughter when 36-42 artillery splashes (I counted!) happened every turn and I could not even start entrenched. That did not count all the 3 inch mortar rounds either, JUST the 25 pound and 4.5 inch rounds that usually had 6-9 impact spots.

It was ridiculous considering the size of my force. Then the force I faced on the map was immense - some 60-80 tanks (cruisers and matilda), 20 bren carriers, 30 trucks and everything loaded with squads, MG's and the like. Plus the 40 mm bofors. Buying that force should have cost at least 8000 points before any artillery.

It was laughable against my 16 Infantry squads, 25 Pz III tanks, 4 Pz IVe, 4 88's, 4 AAA and 16 halftracks (to carry the troops - so not deployed up front in a delay). My 'extra' purchase 75 guns nestled behind hills with the munitions in two different locations were pounded out of commission in 2 turns. How eerily efficient that AI is...No matter how I located my (4) 88's - they also were obliterated immediately even when hidden.....

My infantry force was mostly routed away and 1/3 of my armor was immobilized/damaged after 6 turns of that pounding before the lead elements of his force even reached me. The smoke from the bombardments covered the battlefield so there wasn't even any shooting back possible.

And all I get for that is 274 overload points?

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Echoing a previous comment, I think you may have bought 3 battalions of 105s. A battery has 4 guns and costs ~200, a battalion has 3 batteries (12 guns) and costs ~600. I don't see any way to buy 9 offboard guns. Your force as described costs about 2800 or so (not including artillery), which means your artillery percentage is over 39%! Don't forget, if you have a delay mission, the AI gets 1.5 times your spend(ifrc), so expect to see a 6000 pt force coming your way! I don't recall what arty% an advance mission gets, and I'm too lazy to look it up!

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

I ran into something similar, not artillery overload, but force size. It turned out to be the point count setting in Preferences. The AI side should have a XXX setting for it to properly calculate its force size.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

The advancing force gets 1.5 times the delayers points value (IIRC, it may be twice as many, and I think its 3 times for the attacker in an assault)

So every point you spend as P1 from the support pool is giving him as P2 1.5-2 extra buy points. Support points are voluntary (for payer 1, not so if you are player 2 of course!). Only spend them if you need them, really.

The AI will now buy cheap general support artillery if it's attacking. It will tend to buy those in batallion sized lumps, too. This increases the AI tube count. They have a longer plotting delay, but if you have the full game, the AI does sometimes do a programmed barrage now, with a mixture of random shoots into its area of interest, or around the objective hexes, along with some effort at a rolling barrage that will steadily walk from the front line onwards. It will also use its on map mortars and arty in the programme - unlike the traditional single turn 0 fire of old.

You bought "nine off map guns" - unlikely since the Germans only have 4 gun off-map batteries. Perhaps you meant 2 batteries (ie 8 guns) - you would be unlikely to have been able to buy 9 batteries with the usual support points.

The British cruiser tanks are quite cheap - only 50 points for an A13, 57 for a crusader 1. They are easy targets with thin skins. The Infantry tanks will take a long time to get into the fight, and Matildas are only 80 points being slow and as weakly armed as the cruisers. The Brits use leg infantry in the main - with some motorised on cheap light trucks. APCS are rare till Europe. The brits like a lot of recce - so expect plenty of tin can armoured cars and universal carriers.

The AI will be buying at book prices as well whereas your troops will likely be experts by now, and so cost rather a lot more than the book price shown in the encyclopaedia.

The searching fires in the programme can find stuff you think is "hidden". And even if the AI is not using a programmed fire plan, it will still then plot stuff randomly searching mainly within 10-12 hexes or so of an objective starting to fall from about turn 3-4 onwards. Add random fall for unobserved fall of shot, and the area out to 20 hexes from any objective hex is in danger of being stonked. (It also likes crossroad hexes in your area, so same applies to those as well as roads, though to a lesser amount than the V-hex area). Some fire is occasionally plotted randomly into the rear area of the enemy deployment zone too on occasion, since that's where arty, area SAMs and other high-value stuff is often parked.

All AI plotting is using exactly the same info you would get as a human player - there aren't any "hints" or "cheats" - unlike the original SSI code which did do that. So your 88s either were put somewhere the randomiser decided to plant a stonk, or were spotted moving and setting up there if in LOS to some unit on the enemy side.

Personally, I don't bother to use on-map indirect arty, unless it is SP arty that can displace quickly to get out of counter battery fires. Exception is mortars, but I place these in patches of rough or on a field or soft sand, which has some defensive worth to HE fire. The AI has the same info as you - and just like you will see the "puffs of smoke" your indirect fire units show when firing, and plot fires onto those. My SP arty will scoot after 2 turns fired, my mortars will simply hunker down in the rough and suck it up.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

In an advance/delay battle, the advancing side can use up to 30 % of points in artillery before overload points start being awarded, while the defending side can spend up to 15 %. Furthermore, the attacking side gets 50% more points overall than the defender.

So if the defending force was 4000 points, this would give an attacking force of 6000 points, and the artillery overload limits would be 600 and 1800 points, respectively.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Looks like I got some numbers messed up in the previous, since attacker in advance/delay battle gets 100% extra points, rather than 50%.

So if the defending force was 4000 points, this would give an attacking force of 8000 points, and the artillery overload limits would be 600 and 2400 points, respectively.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Not to sound off but why does everyone assume I'm mistaken?

TRUST ME. I had 9 total off board guns. 3 sets of 3 10.5 cm guns. Look at the purchase screen under artillery. You get a set of three light artillery guns under the choice "artillery abt (German OOB circa 1941)." 3 batteries of 3 guns is nine guns - TOTAL. A 10.5cm choice costs 579 points and they are off-board assets. These are part of my core force.

My core is 5 companies of PZ III H (25 tanks), 1 company of PZ IV E (4 tanks), 4 companies of PZ grenadiers (4X4) squads for 16 total squads of men, 16 251 halftracks to carry the 16 squads, 4 wheeled Flak 88's, 4 tracked AAA guns, an HQ, and my 3 batteries of 3 guns EACH 10.5 cm artillery - TOTAL NINE GUNS!!!!!!!!

Scenario purchase points were used to buy the 75 mm IG which were in two companies including a spotter for 184 points each. My leftover support points were spent on 5 booby traps and munitions (1 purchase of 2). I ignored the rest.

So for the last time, I had 9 total guns off board and 12 on board for 9 10.5's and 12 75's. That is a total of 2105 artillery points.

The attacker had 3 howitzer troops on board for 88 times 3 or 152.
2 medium batteries of 4.5 inch for 412 times 2 or 824.
5 artillery RGT's of 25 pounders for 1008 times 5 or 5040.
That is a total of 6016 points of artillery purchase.

So 6016 to my 2105 is approximately 3 times as many artillery points. This was NOT a defend battle because I did not get any option to purchase mines and I could not/did not start entrenched. It had to be a delay.

So WAY MORE than a 6000 point force coming my way, it was OVER 6000 points in just artillery alone. My TOTAL force value with core plus purchase was 5364 points of which 2105 was artillery with a 37% artillery given next to the force number.

In the delay scenario that should have given the attacker 10,708 points to spend. 6016 was spent in artillery.

The attacker had 3 A/C troops for 180 pts.
3 light tank groups for 174 points.
3 TD sections for 204,
5 cruiser squadrons for 3420
2 inf tank groups for 342
1 inf tank section for 156
3 mg platoons for 150
3 mech patrols for 309
5 lorried inf platoons for 333
2 rifle coy + mor for 528
2 carrier sections for 164

for a grand total of 6030 points.

So the attacker got 12046 points to my 5364. I calculate a 39% art percentage to me though the game said 37%. The attacker had a 50% artillery percentage.

Mobhack,
I have the purchased game. So the attacker MUST have gotten twice the points I got (that is what you get for a special battle??). I don't really care about that except in terms of overload points in this case.

So again, based on these numbers, how is it I got ONLY 274 points awarded to my score for overload? The AI got 722 which is about 37% of my 2105 points in artillery - I see that. How is it I only got 274 when the AI spent 50% on artillery - 6016 points?
If the points accrue after 30% then I should have received 20% of 6016 or 1203 points for overload (20% after subtracting the 30% of the AI's total 50% artillery purchase?) - correct?

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Do you have a save of that so I could check it out?

(The UK artillery is likely to be general support, so a bit cheaper), but something does seem off here.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

I'm not being argumentative, and it doesn't really matter, but you can't buy offboard arty by individual tubes. if you select a battery (bty) it will show one line on the top display on the right, but if you look at the bottom display, you will see the 4 tubes that make up that battery. But it doesn't matter! You spent 2105 on arty and 3259 on non-arty (if my math is right). A core of 3259 allows you to spend 575 on arty for a total of 3834. If your opponent is awarded 50% of the overspend, then the AI should have got 765 points. Close enough to what you saw

Keep in mind, the AI CANNOT spent more than they are allowed (see Andy's note on how arty can be cheaper than you might think). So, if an advance is 2x for the attacker, then the AI spent 10,728. If it spent 6030 on non-arty, then 4698 were spent on arty. Assuming that the advancing side is allowed to spend 30%, then the AI overspent by 2114 points which should have awarded you 1057 points. Not even close!

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

I have nine lines of 10.5 cm artillery in my core (3 lines times three) representing the three artillery abt units I bought for my core. If 1 line in a tank company is one tank on the map then I assume 1 line of artillery is 1 tube on the map and one battery off map is 3-5 tubes?

I am probably confusing apples and oranges between tubes, guns and batteries but no matter. The numbers I stated for purchase, force values, etc. are correct or close. I did forget a few AI units in the count like the 40mm bofors guns, some ATR units and small stuff the AI had in addition to what was listed at the end of the battle but the total was clearly at least twice my force value.

I don't have a save of the game since I pressed on. But my core is exactly as I listed. The purchase price for the artillery part of my core force is three artillery abt's at 600 points each for 1800 points. 1800 of my core force value 5355 points is the 37% number. I spent less than 500 on support points, the 184 times 2 of the two IG companies and a few booby traps.

At the end, I carefully inspected the AI's force list and the game map and counted all the units especially artillery on and off the map. Thirty 25 pounder artillery troop and four 4.5 inch artillery lines off map (3-5 tubes each). Twelve 25 pounder howitzer tubes on map. Then I checked the purchase price for those units against a June 1941 British OOB purchase by starting a random campaign and looking at what could be bought for how much, etc. The artillery cost for a identical purchase was 6016 for June 41.

All the numbers I listed are correct for the organizations and units in the AI's force OOB. I actually missed some units like the 40mm bofors but it was close enough to determine that the AI spent AT LEAST twice my points in purchase and that 6016 of those points; 50%, of the AI's total purchase cost was artillery.

Again, I could not entrench nor were any mines/traps etc. available so I was NOT in a defend battle. It was a 'special battle' following a previous battle that gives the option to accept or refuse.

Again, I get that in a 'special battle' the AI gets 200% of my points or about 12,000 total points? I also get my artillery gave the AI 722 overload points. But I should have received a lot more than 274 points added to my score for the AI artillery, right?.

38-46 splashes (multiple impacts per attack) every turn for the first 6 turns was impressive. I had all of my artillery on counter battery fire and within 10 turns we were down to 16-20 splashes and down to 2-4 by turn 20 (low on ammo as well, I imagine since 60-80 ammo is the usual load for off-board artillery).

Of course, I only had about 20 functional tanks by then with all my men routed, 4 88's gone, my IG guns all routed and the halftracks and 4 AAA run off the map. Thankfully, the enemy tanks were almost all A-13's with six Valentines and two Matildas so I was able to shoot and kill all his vehicles easily from my positions at long range (15 to 25 hexes - I moved my tanks a lot to avoid splashes and find fields of fire) without any threat from the 2 pounder guns after the smoke cleared away. Then I could use my artillery to force a general withdrawal of his men and few heavy tanks. Lastly, I moved forward and re-took the victory hexes; the last re-take causing the end of the battle about turn 35. A few more 'victories' like that and I should just pull out of North Africa.....LOL.

Still can't figure that 274 overload point score added to my total considering half the AI purchase being artillery. If it happens again, I'll save the file.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

I concur, sounds like you should have had more overload points from the AI purchase. Keep in mind, as Andy said, that some of the arty that the AI buys might be "direct control" with a 25% discount or "general control" at a 50% discount. Either way, the AI will spend only what points they are allocated by your total purchase. I think saving a game for Andy or Don to look at is a good idea. As I said in my last post, I think you should have gotten more points from AI overload.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

At the risk of being considered patronising, I would like to point out that you have got some of your terminology a bit wrong, which might lead to misunderstandings.

Firstly, the German formation "Artillerie Abt" (abt = Abteilung) is not a battery, but a battalion, consisting of three batteries (Batterie). 10.5cm Batterie consists of 4 tubes, so you had in total 36 tubes of off-map artillery (in 9 units). This is almost equivalent to the divisional artillery component of 1941 era German armoured division (24 x 10.5 cm tubes and 12 x 15 cm tubes), so it is not a trivial amount.

As for the amount of tubes per off-map unit, it can vary between 1 and 4, with 4 tubes being the most common. You can see the amount of tubes on the unit information screen, shown eg. when purchasing (or from the bombardment menu during the game).

Also, the German term "Zug" (in game usually 4-5 tanks or 3-4 infantry squads) means a platoon, not a company. German term for company is "Kompanie", in game usually abbreviated as "Kp". So your core panzer force was actually 6 platoons of tanks, not 6 companies.

As for counting points for artillery overload, please notice that only the actual shooting (indirect fire) and ammo supply units are counted. The forward observers (such as the ones you purchased in the IG companies) are not counted towards artillery overload.


As for the amount of artillery that the British AI fielded, that would historically amount to approximately two infantry divisions worth of tubes! It must have been quite uncomfortable to be in the receiving end, especially if you are in a sandy desert that does not provide much protection for infantrymen.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

I did some calculations again. Presuming that the enemy point total was 10728 points, and 274 points were awarded for overload, this would suggest that the points total for the AI artillery was around 3766 points.

If all of the off-map assets would have been bought as general support (50 % discount), then the listed AI artillery force could have been bought for 3196 (including the on-map howitzers), which is under the value given.

Assuming that one of the 25 pdr field regiments was under full control, and all other off-map assets were general support, then the points total would come to 3700 (including the on-map howitzers), which would be quite close.

Description of the artillery barrage thinning down after the really scary initial bombardments might also be an indication of the artillery having been general support.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Well done for taking the time to look at it, there was obviously something wrong when 9 offnap tubes represented 37% of his force with a force that size.

Unless you adjust your force I would expect more of the same in the future, your force is very artillery heavy & quite large. Not going into detail but with that combination I would therefore expect the AI to spend a lot on offmap artillery.
I would stick to a max of 15% in your core, use your support points to buy more for an assault if you need them.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

.......and a save game would have prevented a lot of speculation and given us all a clear understanding of the force composition on both sides so IF you suspect this is happening again in the future PLEASE post a save game so we can all look at it.


An "Artillerie Abt" is three batteries of four guns per battery = 12 guns so......

would be 36 guns....each line represents a battery of four guns and 9x4=36 so you had a lot more arty than you thought you did.
.
Don

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

On practical note I would like to add that German 10.5 cm howitzer batteries are likely to be of limited utility in off-map counterbattery fire due to their modest range.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Yes, the 10.5's are limited in counter fire since they don't have the range to conduct fire against the 4.5 inch guns for example. However, the bulk of the AI's artillery was 25 pounders and the counter battery fire was extremely (thank god) effective against them. At the end, all but 2 of them were badly damaged/out of action.

Yes, I was confusing the numbers of guns but the purchase points were correct. Thank you for the inputs.

Two reasons I put artillery in my core force:

1). I find that if you don't have artillery assets in your core force you will be overwhelmed. Remember, I am working in the 4000-5000 force size range so the additional purchase points even for an assault rarely allow the buying of more than 2 or 3 off board batteries which is inadequate for any assault. And you will want pioneers to clear mines, perhaps some paratroopers for harassment, etc. I usually see about 2000-2500 support points for an assault and a light battalion of batteries is 600 with a heavy around 800 points. Those batteries don't have unlimited ammo either and over a 40 turn assault you can't spread 1 or 2 battalions of batteries out that long.

2). Units in my core gain experience and when my batteries become veteran or elite they really perform magnificently in counter battery fire solving a lot of enemy artillery issues.

I know many will argue to buy on map artillery assets with a few munitions and I do that to make up for the lack of what I can't buy. The problem is, those on map assets do not counter battery fire and are often taken out by the AI's off board assets meaning one has to have off board assets or be at the mercy of the other side. Nothing works like clearing obstacles with artillery raining down on you - right?! LOL. You want to succeed in a assault? - you have to take out the enemies artillery both on and off board and you need plenty of smoke.

I did not know the AI gets a choice of direct control versus general control in purchase? And these provide discounts? Does a player have that option and how do I use it? Could you reference a place to read up on this in the manual?

Truthfully this seems very imbalanced in game terms since general/direct control for an AI is the about same thing. So the AI gets a much more massive artillery purchase, gets to use it just as effectively either way and pays no penalty because the purchase is 'pro-rated.' I would say that the artillery overload score should be adjusted/based on the actual purchase price of the weapons without any discount.

Anyway, a big thank you to everyone who has/is making inputs. Most appreciated.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

From the guide:

General Support and Direct Support off-map artillery
Direct Support is less responsive than normal arty, General Support even less so. The delay is longer for calls for fire, other than onto gold spots or as a pre game bombardment (their main use). Shifting fires costs a little more for these type of batteries and they are less likely to be in radio contact as they are theoretically shared with other formations than yours. As well, they are less likely to fire counter battery fires if left idle. Strike air types may be bought in general or direct support mode if desired.
Direct Support costs 75% of a full Under Command battery and General Support costs 50% of a full Under Command battery.
A button on the purchase menu cycles between artillery types. If General Support or Direct Support purchase is active, then only the appropriate formations are filtered to show on the arty page and the miscellaneous page (for strike air). Cycle this back to Under Command artillery to see the filtered-out formations again. General Support and Direct Support off-map artillery cannot be purchased for your core in a campaign

If there is an inbalance then it is in the players favour as the AI tends not to shift fire but replots.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

You managed to succesfully fire counter-battery missions on 28 out of 30 British off-map 25 pounder troops? That is an impressive achievement, my off-map batteries never seem to perform that well - maybe because I never have the patience to keep them reserved to counter-battery fire for most of the game. I guess your batteries have managed to get quite some experience so far?

As for the range, 10.5 cm howitzers should be fine for countering 25 pounders or US 105 mm howitzers, but there is a lot of artillery that will outrange them.

As for on-map artillery, keep in mind that if you are assaulting or defending you get to dig in your leg artillery. This will make them a whole lot more difficult for enemy to destroy with indirect fire, especially if you place them in rough ground (and provide ammo resupply with fully enclosed armoured vehicles or ammo bunkers). Personally I prefer mortars for on-map indirect fire assets, especially when they come in units of 2 or 3 tubes, providing plenty of firepower and survivability (since there are 8-12 men that need to be all wiped out to destroy the unit for good, losing the experience).

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

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Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

As a further note your artillery will cost a lot more than the figures you quoted.
At experience 70 one set of 4 guns costs 276 points.
You have 9 of them so that works out at 2484.
However its 1941 so base German morale is 75 but from your counter battery effectiveness the experience of at least some of your guns must be in the 80s.
I would not be surprised to find your arty is actually worth around 3000 points.

Now I have read your post properly & realise you don't have 5 tank companies just around 30 tanks & 16 infantry squads I would guess your artillery cost is close to 50% of your forces total cost not 15% or less as you would expect. That's a pretty huge discrepancy.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Actually, he mentioned fielding nine batteries of 10.5 cm howitzers, and those actually cost 198 points per battery at experience 70 (or 200 points at experience 75).

I presume you have looked your point costs from 10 cm K18 battery, which is significantly pricier: 273 points at experience 70 and 276 points at experience 75.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Your correct I just looked for the Abt bit he mentioned.
Still works out that the AIs arty overload was a lot smaller than his as it had double the force size.

Re: confusing Artillery overload score
 

Yes,

My force value has increased as my units get experience without adding any new ones to the core. I was at about 3500 to start and now in 41, it's about 5400. Naturally, there have been upgrades on the armor but the rest is experience.

All my 10.5 batteries are veteran with most at elite status. The main reason I put them in the core is to do just that. The batteries are VERY good at counter battery fire when they reach that experience. They fire and hit extremely well. In fact, I leave them all on counter battery until the opponent's assets are trashed then I use them normally. If I need extra like for an assault, I purchase them. Usually a battalion of longer range heavy batteries to counter the opponent's long range batteries. I also upgrade one battalion of 10.5's to 150's for that reason later in my campaign when I switch to the East Front as the Russian AI 'loves the guns'.

My artillery percentage is 37% which is heavy but as Napoleon said: "Artillery is the King of the battlefield."

Thank you for the rule book excerpts, I shall pay attention to that general and direct support button and play with that.

Awesome thread - so much help!