Polish OOB
 

The Infantry category:

1) There are two entries for DMntd Cav Pl. The first entry is actually a company.

2) There are two entries for Cavalry Platoon. The second entry is actually a company.

Re: Polish OOB
 

Now corrected. Good catch

Don

Re: Polish OOB
 

Is this a good thread to suggest some changes to the OOB as well?

Re: Polish OOB
 

yes

Re: Polish OOB
 

So, there is a thing generally about Polish infantry up to September 1939.
DRG, please read it carefully and check for yourself.

How does it currently look like?

There is a platoon made of 3 squads, each having 19 men.
Is it correct? Yes, it is.

Yet, there are 2 arguments going against such solution.

Argument 1: Gameplay

Currently those 19 men squads dispose 2 weapon slots, one taken by the rifle and one taken by the BAR. Such firepower however does not represent the actual cluster of troops in such a squad. You have 19 men firing their rifles with just the same efficiency as eg. Slovakian rifle squad of that era.
Yes, let us take a look on Slovakian military of 1939.

What do we have there?
Rifle Company - historically accurate - is made of 3 platoons, each having 4 squads with 10 men. This means we have 12 rifle squads that "carry the fight". each is equipped with a rifle and ZB26.
If you sum up the firepower, you have roughly 12 rifle tests going and 12 LMG tests going, assuming each rifle squad fires a salvo.
120 men = 12 rifle tests, 12 LMG tests.

Meanwhile, Polish have 3 squads with 19 men each. 157 men makes company's "bring it to the enemy" force. If you however sum it up, it ends with:
157 men = 9 rifle tests, 9 LMG tests (as company has 9 squads total)

Thus, not only firepower of nearly 40 men more than in Slovakian company is omitted, but actual squad efficiency is nowhere "noted". Like, we ignore the fact Polish squad has 9 men more.

But yes, I know, this is game limitation here. In some cases USMC infantry has similar problem. I would name that 13 men squad as maximum, above which game in portraying firepower ineffectively.

Same applies to casualties. Big squads have tendency to take lots of casualties at once. It is common - when playing Polish - to get 3-4 men as casualties from a single salvo. I do not thing my grandfathers were that eager to die.
So, to sum it up, in firefight between Slovakian platoon and Polish platoon, which has 130% of Slovakian firepower strength, Slovakia gets more tests (4/4 vs. 3/3) with omittion of Polish numbers, is more accurate (big squads are easier to hit) and scores way more effective hits (Slovakia usually losses 1-2 men, Polish 1-4 men).

Tests above work with literally every other nation. Took Slovakia as an example.
But OK. At this point someone may simply say "game portrays squad, so we have a squad".


Here comes argument 2: There ARE already exceptions in SPWW2!

First, quick note how Polish squad was organized. I am speaking out of my head, but if you only like I can bring you lots of sources. They vary on details only.

19 men was pretty much correct. We used to divide that squad into 3 elements: command element with squad leader, couple of riflemen (and dedicated messenger who was in every squad). That element often carried a 46mm mortar "Jarząbek" (it is a different discussion if "GL Section" should be dispersed among normal squads). Then, there was a covering element, consisting of BAR gunner, his commander and ammo bearers. And then, there was maneuver element made of riflemen only.
As of numbers, here I do not remember for sure, but it should be: 5-6 men in command element, 4 men in covering element, 10 men in maneuver element. I will get you details on this.

Practically however, command element and covering element were often merged together as they operated closely with each other. Maneuver element was so strong because they often operated alone for long time, squad could have been split for hours. It was normal in Polish doctrine at that time.

OK, here there may be another question: "Why should we care".

Developers, please take a look at Italians.
Italian rifle company: 3 platoons, each with 4 "squads". 2 squads carry only Carcano rifles, the other 2 squads: Breda LMGs. Two of them, usually.

Lets take a look, for instance, here:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...0to%201943.htm

Italian Infantry battalion, OK, quoting from the bottom of the page:

"The Italian Rifle Platoon used a unique internal organisation.

It was divided into two large Squads, each of twenty men, which were further split into Rifle and Light Machine Gun groups. The Squad was commanded by a Sergeant or Major Sergeant, who controlled the LMG Group. This was made up of two detachments, each of a Corporal gunner, an assistant gunner and two ammunition bearers. Each detachment served a Breda Modello 30 light machine gun. The balance of the Squad was found in the Rifle Group of eleven men, which included a Corporal Major and Corporal.

The manual indicates that the two Groups were to operate as distinct elements, with the two LMGs supporting the Rifle Group onto its objective. At the time, most other armies embedded a light machine gun with each Section/Squad, themselves roughly half the size of the Italian Squad, which by comparison seems an unwieldy organisation. Individual weapons are given as pistols for each Corporal gunner, a carbine for the Major Sergeant and rifles for all others."

When you take a look at the Italians, you can see that squad is SPLIT in the for long long time (I play this game for like 5 years and I do not remember it to be different).

So, Italian rifle platoon should be in fact made of 2 squads, each with 20 men, representing Carcano rifles and Breda Machine Guns as one.

Does it sound familiar? Yes it does, this is how Polish are organized. But when you are playing Italians, you can simulate platoon maneuvers correctly and you are not loosing that effective in-game firepower, you are not limited to 4 weapons slots as well (you have 8 instead, due to the split into 2 separate units).

I have a feeling that Spanish army is designed similarly, but I know little of it, someone else would have to confirm.

So I say: If Italians are organized that way, Polish should be as well. It would add realism and increase effective gameplay of the Polish companies. And that would portrait great numbers of infantrymen, far greater than any other nation was using in a company.


How to do it:
I know little about OOB editing. I make scenarios, not armies.
Yet, I guess Polish rifle platoon, simple rifle platoon, should be pretty much the same starting from January 1930.
It currently consists of:
Medium Infantry (19 men, Wz98a, Wz28 LMG, Grenade Wz24, Sniper Rifle)
Infantry (19 men, Wz98a, Wz28 LMG, Grenade Wz24 Za, Grenade Wz24 Ob)
Infantry (19 men, Wz98a, Wz28 LMG, Grenade Wz24 Za, Grenade Wz24 Ob)

I recommend to make it look like that:
Infantry (c. 10 men*, Slots: Rifle, Rifle, Grenade, Grenade**)
Infantry (c. 10 men*, Slots: Rifle, Rifle, Grenade, Grenade**)
Infantry (c. 10 men*, Slots: Rifle, Rifle, Grenade, Grenade**)
Medium Infantry (c. 9 men*, Slots: Rifle, LMG, Grenade, Grenade**)
Medium Infantry (c. 9 men*, Slots: Rifle, LMG, Grenade, Grenade**)
Medium Infantry (c. 9 men*, Slots: Rifle, LMG, Grenade, Grenade**)

* - I will get you exact data on numbers if you like
** - Second grenade may be optional

This way Polish squad is correctly split. I am joining command element with covering element, as mentioned above, they were often merged. But I can propose additional division, yet I say if we made 9 in-game units if of this that would waaay too much.
If would need to be clarified whether Medium Infantry unit should also have 46mm mortar. If you accept the general idea, I will get the very details.

Quick note about weapons (thing of less importance, but if we are with it):
Wz. 98a - currently most common rifle - was produced from 1936 and less than 100.000 models were produced. This weapon should not be that most often spotted.
Instead, Polish should be armed with standard Wz. 98 which was nearly direct copy of Gewehr 98 and quite common (half million in numbers) Wz. 29, which was resemblant to Karabiner 98.
MORS SMG - technically it should not be so widely available, only about 200 were manufactured.
Grenades - up to you, every other nation seems to have just one "grenade". There was a difference between Za and Ob variants of Wz. 24 Grenade, but I am not sure if OOB should portrait that.

OK, that was long, but I hope you made through this. I did a lot of research about rifle companies of various nations and decided to address that aspect.

If you like, I may also check up that MG Company. It seems to be quite correct, but I am not sure what Taczankas are doing there. And Wz. 14 HMG was completely scrapped in 1939, also.

Re: Polish OOB
 

I have cut and copied this to study once I actually start looking at doing OOB work AND I'll wait and see who else might have an opinion on this but a few points.

1/ Have you adjusted your OOB to see how that plays out ? I suspect not

2/ The ENTIRE reason winSPWW2 allows up to 19 men and all the infantry graphics are set up for 19 max is because of those Polish 19 man platoons ( that you want to split 9+10............) that have been set up that way for years and this is the FIRST complaint I've heard about it and we have more than our fair share of Poles that have expessed interest and opinons about how the OOB is put together. The Info line of that OOB only scratches the surface

Don't take that as a negative. If the game can be made more true to life without tearing it all apart and starting again I will try to accomodate but this is a fundamental change to the infantry in that OOB so not something I would do just to see who it makes happy and unhappy

finally

3/ you should know that the ONLY difference in game terms between a Wz. 98a and a Wz. 98 is the ''a" and I could easily fix that by removing the 'a' but this is getting a wee bit too nit picky..... yes?

4/ Genades were covered by Drela a year or two back and my compromise was what's there now because going to one grenade screws things up that this solution does not and the only people this upsets are people who know there was a Za and Ob variant and in game terms it mean NOTHING
IN game terms we could have generic Handgrenades and generic "rifles" for evey nation and the game would play out the same so really that is a complaint about an insignificant detail

Don

Re: Polish OOB
 

Seriously.........there is ONE UNIT in that entire OOB that uses that weapon........ONE.......and it's a 3 radio code which means the AI never buys it

Re: Polish OOB
 

1. You mean editing OOB in my game? Not really, as I said, I am not good with that.

2. That is not really any sort of complaint. I am just informing you that efficiency is down pretty badly. This makes German and other scenarios way easier. Funny thing is that I have seen a scenario or two where designer manually adjusted that. All I ask is to consider that thing in the game. Italians have it? Why not the others if necessary?
At this moment Polish quite often seem to be loosing firefights they should not. I came up for this idea after playing couple of September 1939 PBEMs, against Slovaks, Germans, Soviets etc.

3. Not sure what do you mean by that. I mentioned weapons only as a detail.

4. Rifles are actually pretty well covered. This is what I like in this game and this is why I mentioned Wz. 98 and Wz. 29. As for grenades - just noting that, nothing else - there is a significant difference in "kill" statistic (3:0 and 6:0). These grenades pretty much include the difference in Polish division of grenade. Our doctrine used to (not sure how it is now) differ them between typical "fragmentation grenades" (which is Ob = obronny), such as soviet F-1 grenade and those grenades relying on explosion power rather than fragmentation (Za = zaczepny), such as soviet RG-42. This division seems quite dead for me and I just don't get why we include two different grenades.
But as I said, it's just a mention, do as you like with it.

That platoon is key argument.

Re: Polish OOB
 

The original OOB designer had one (1) Grenade ( weapon 87 Granat wz.24) then the OOB was modified.....by a Pole........ to include both the Ob and the Za and I am NOT tearing them all out and having to issue corrected units for EVERY scenario that uses 1939 era Polish units because when you remove a weapon and leave a blank it makes scenhack scream and that makes me unhappy ........all for change that is totally insignificant to gameplay

It's right up there with the Kb wz. 98a vs Kb wz. 98 issue

I UNDERSTAND the platoon is the key issue, do you understand the work that went into creating the 19 man infantry graphics because the Poles used 19 man platoons and in 10 year + this is the first time anyone has even suggested it's wrong ?

Don

Re: Polish OOB
 

IIRC, in older versions of the game the Polish 1939 rifle platoon was made up of five-six smaller sections...

Re: Polish OOB
 

Which everyone ( well maybe not everyone but everyone at the time ) agreed gave the Polish infanty TOO MUCH tactical flexibility

Re: Polish OOB
 

11 years ago that change was made...........eleven years and now it's an issue?
This is the organization for the last DOS version.... before it was modified

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1443987700

and that was broken down to

1/ 12 man Heavy infantry
2/ 8 man infantry
3/ 11 man med infantry
4/ 8 man infantry
5/ 11 man med infantry
6/ 8 man infantry
7/ 9 man med infantry

Re: Polish OOB
 

Shouldn't flexibility be limited by effective firepower? Half of platoon has way weaker firepwoer due to lack of LMG. Then again, do we want this how it should be or to make it "balanced". Because simulator shouldn't make the balance of serious importance. If Polish company numbered that much, let us show it. Eg. German player will have to focus on bringing as much MGs as possible to hinter the advance of more numerous infantry itself.

Oh, BTW, there is one more thing, if we speak about Polish OOB. I am not fanatical or something, just pointing out some singular things worth quick fixing ;)
25mm French AT gun (unit 401 if I am not mistaken. Pardon me if I am). These are available till August 1940. In fact, should be available till June 1942. Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade managed to evacuate significant amount of those guns from Syria in 1940. They were used regardless of British weaponry standarization. They were also used with good effect in Siege of Tobruk (till December 1941) and later, around Gazala.
These guns were probably withdrawn together with the brigade and most likely scrapped as ineffective in mid 1942.

Re: Polish OOB
 

I'm not saying no and I'm not saying yes. What you propose is far more work than you think it is and extends to existing scenarios and campaigns which would all have to be rebuilt.

However, this could be handled similarly to the MBT Canadian OOB that has regular SP infantry formations and "Detached weapons" ( DW ) formations that break units down into smaller units and both are offered to players . I have filed this away and will consider it further over the winter

How many LMG's were in a Polish platoon ? and Militia PL

Don

Re: Polish OOB
 

A somewhat related question. Is the effectiveness of the rifle in a squad affected by the number of men in the squad? That is, are three men firing rifles as effective as 19 men firing rifles? If yes, would it be possible to adjust effectiveness based on the number of men in the unit?

I have also noticed in playing 1939 scenarios, as noted in this thread, that the 19 man Polish squads have a hard time. They take more hits, which adds to their suppression, which makes them less effective.

Another thing worth taking a look at is experience level. The Poles had more experienced noncoms and officers because in the 1920s they fought the Soviets and some of their other neighbors, whereas the Germans experience was from WW1, except for some "volunteers" in Spain.

Re: Polish OOB
 

From the guide:

Class 1 - This is the infantry primary weapon class. This covers Rifles, SMG and so forth. Infantry units with a class 1 weapon in weapon slot will have their fire effect adjusted for the number of men in the unit and range in hexes, less bonus at long range. This reflects the number of riflemen in the section. Inf Prime weapons not in slot 1 do not get this bonus.

So yes 19 riflemen ARE more effective than say 10.

Re: Polish OOB
 

Good of you to remind me, it looks like SaS Troop missed that bit in his analysis.
edit: scorpio was faster than me...

Re: Polish OOB
 

Thing about number of men is I have not found any evidence it works as Scorpio says. 19 men vs. 10 men seems to be the same effectiveness (eg. in accuracy tests). I believe that aspect is lowered when certain percentage of casualties is reached. That explains why eg. 3-4 men straglers from 10 men original squad are not as effective as full squad.

But it would be better to have developers speaking about that.

@Warnedava - about experience... that's a helluva topic that could be covered in a different thread. I generally say experience is OK as it portraits Polish army was fine, but nothing over the top in low-level leadership. It must be noted many 1920 experienced commanders were responsible for ineffective decisions. Also pressence of Polish volunteers in Spanish Civil War was weak as these men were considered criminals under polish law of that time.
Polsih doctrine was build on "eastern basis". It was sort of a self-invented blitzkrieg, but relaying on cavalry formations that should be used for long range independent attacks, encirclement and elimination of Soviet forces in the offence.
These concepts were badly stopped by actual Blitzkrieg doctrine.

If that appeared, I could only recommend a change in increasing morale to 70 as defenders were historically motivated and fighting for "survival" - Poles of that time well understood what lost war will mean to entire nation. Army did well when comes to motivation generally, there were few desertions, quickly organizing partisans, good ad hoc commanding. Quick note: it was not rare that officers and troops committed suicide when their positions were about to be overrun. There were cases that junior officers revolted against senior ones if those proposed surrender. Infamous Westerplatte case is not clear to this day.

@DRG - Platoon had 3 Wz. 28 LMGs - one per squad. There is one thing I forgot to mention before: the UR-35 anti tank rifle. It was officially provided to every platoon. It is currently well represented with "medium infantry" unit having option for those. If we split it into three "medium infantry" there will be a spam of AT rifles.
My suggestion:
1. Either one squad of support weapons be "Heavy infantry" and have the same things "medium infantry has" plus AT rifle.
2. Or platoon gets an integral "AT-Section" of 2 men carrying an AT rifle. It could also be solved by attaching "Inf-AT section" formation (having 3 ATRs) into company: player would dispose those among platoons.
Yet, not every division received those rifles.

I recommend option 1.

Militia: ON units should have an possibility to be bought in companies also (standard 3x Militia Platoon will do). Info about heavy weapons is scarce, but from what I see it could be 1 LMG per platoon. Thing is it was quite vary and it will be very hard to represent it to make it fully realistic.
There were several ON battalion types. Type IV is the best one, introduced in April 1939 but not fully adopted. In such battalion, company looked like this:

"1 kompania strzelecka (Rifle Company)

poczet dowódcy (HQ & Staff)
drużyna gospodarcza (technical team)
sekcja sanitarna (podoficer + 4 sanitariuszy + 2 pary noszy) (medical section: NCO + 4 medics + 2 stretchers)
3 plutony strzeleckie a. 3 drużyny (3 rifle platoons with 3 squads each)
pluton karabinów maszynowych a. 3 drużyny (MG platoon with 3 sections (?)) - unclear on this one
"


I can get you complete organization of that battalion. It had no integral MG Company, and according to equipment list, entire battalion should have 9 LMGs and 6 HMGs. That would split it roughly to 3 LMGs and 2 HMGs per company.
I am not sure if LMGs were integral part of a squad. Could be, 2 HMGs could have been theoretically qualified as platoon.

About DW: I was thinking of such option, but company would have enormous sizes in units and would really give too much advantage to the Polish player. Especially because BAR sections would have to be 0-sized units, such as Fallschirmjager LMGs. I am not sure if that would work well, so I proposed 6 unit platoon instead.

As of scenarios, current organization "as a whole" is correct. I am not sure if that would be necessary to update these scenarios.

Re: Polish OOB
 

He's quoting the Game Guide so he's already quoting the developers.

Fire effect IS adjusted for the number of men in the unit but that may not be at all obvious in a casual test. As we keep saying there are a host of factors the game takes into consideration between when you shoot and when the effect of that shot takes affect, experience, morale, whether the target is moving or stationary or pinned and how much punishment it may have taken to that point. A slightly different example is APCcalc.....that shows the average of 1000 simulated shots because anything less is not an accurate sample of the averge

A 19 man Polish squad firing on a 10 man squad and the reverse may not show the results right away, sometime it takes many shots to generate a casualty, sometimes not, that's the random number generator doing it's job and some days you can get different results simply by turning the game off and restarting. Anyone replaying a saved turn again has seen that

The bottom line is the code is set up to take the number of men firing slot 1 weapons into consideration.

Don

Re: Polish OOB
 

Rather not. 25mm guns evacuated from Syria were next handed over to the British, who needed any AT weapons, while the Polish brigade had not been ready to fight yet. For sure most known guns used during later combat (Tobruk defence and Gazala) were 37 mm Bofors (Polish manufactured!), there were also captured Bredas (20mm, probably also 47mm), and possibly 2pdrs. There could have been 25mm guns, but they would have to be given by the British, not original ones - and I haven't heard about their usage at that time. Maybe you have some sources, that would explicitly mention 25mm guns in 1941-42 combat.

As for infantry platoon - I have no thoughts at the moment, and I'd have to re-check the subject, but I don't think it's worth twiddling..

Re: Polish OOB
 

I am getting this from a book "Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Karpackich", published by Mireki, various authors, great majority being veterans of that unit (it is released in 2014, but work origins from 1951, not sure what release number is that).

Witold Ptasznik writes the story of AT battalion of that unit
Two interesting quotes happen:
"By SBSK order of 16th June 1941, an AT battalion was organized (...) It had 12 officers and 160 men. Its main equipment were french 25mm Hotchkiss guns and 37mm Puteaux guns" - I wonder if he actually means old SA18 or newer variants of those. Regardless, by June 1941 25mm AT guns are still mentioned in organization.
Interestingly, presence of these guns is not mentioned in Tobruk. Unit equipment is simply described as "various", 37mm Bofors are also mentioned several times, what indicates "our" guns. I wonder where do these come from since book is silent on that matter.

And then, about that Bofors:
"On 11th December 1941, unit was sent back to Tobruk. On 12th December 1941, battalion gave up all 37mm polish (this word used) guns to the British and received in exchange 10 2 pounder AT artillery pieces" - So 37mm Bofors should be in use till 12/1941 if anyone wondered.

As far as remember there were no other polish units active in combat by that date (except Uhlan Regiment which was fully armoured), so these weapons could not serve in other formations.

Re: Polish OOB
 

I have my books in a mess right now (I have moved), but the information on giving away 25mm guns to the British in late 1940 was IIRC from "Bojowe szlaki pustynne". The brigade must have been supplied with other (or maybe even the same) guns in a training period in early 1941. As a result, a lifespan of 25mm guns could be extended to 7/41.

In Tobruk there were no 25mm guns, because the Brigade was moved by the sea without heavy equipment, and got Bofors (and Italian) AT guns there. There was an interesting book "Od Kocka do Źródła Gazeli" by Mieczysław Pruszyński, who was a commander of one motorized AT platoon.

Later the brigade used eg. 5cm Pak-38, but it was probably during later reorganization period.

Re: Polish OOB
 

To clear up the matter: the Brigade received Bofors guns in Tobruk, and they appeared to come from a small batch manufactured in Poland and sold to the British before the war. They even had Polish inscriptions and tires.

Re: Polish OOB
 

It appears there is an error in the Polish Armor section. There are two entries, SP-AT Platoon and SP-AT Battery. The weapon, confirmed by the photo, is an AA rather than an AT gun carrying only HE ammo.

I think the unit titles should be changed to SP-AA.

Re: Polish OOB
 

Nope, that's intentional

Don

Re: Polish OOB
 

Some observations I made from the Polish OOB:

1.) Weapon 23 (47mm Vickers) has HE kill 3 (other 47 mm guns tend to have HE kill of 2).

2.) Weapon 119 (47mm wz.25) has HE penetration of 0 (other 47 mm guns tend to have HE pen of 1).

3.) Unit 7 (75mm De Dion) has carry capacity of 103, which seems quite generous considering that this vehicle already mounts a 75 mm AA-gun and a crew of six.

Re: Polish OOB
 

And some other odd observations I also did:

4.) Unit 469 (7.92 wz.08 AAMG) has unit class "Flak". I would expect it to rather be "Infantry AA MG".

5.) Unit 410 (75 mm Inf-Gun) is armed with 75mm wzos/26 FG, and has speed 1. Unit 412 (75 mm Field Gun) is armed with the same weapon, but has speed 0. This is inconsistent, even though these two have different unit classes
(410 is "Infantry Support Gun" while 412 is "Howitzer").

6.) Formations 408 (Armoured Batt) and 409 (Armoured Batt+) contain a rather clumsy armoured car squadron (formation 407). Perhaps this could be replaced, in the name of tactical flexibility, with two armoured car platoons (formation 393) and motorcycle (formation 415) and one more armoured car (unit 577) added to the company HQ.

7.) Unit 499 (Asslt Pioneers), available from 1/30 until 6/40, has Mills Bombs in second weapon slot. Maybe it would make more sense to give them Polish grenades instead?

8.) Formation 120 (Marine Supt Co) is classified as being Company formation type, but is not subdivided into platoons. I would suggest splitting it into company HQ, three MG platoons (formation 85) and one mortar section (formation 312).

9.) Formation 315 (MG Company) tends to have a lot of units also bundled to the company HQ. I would leave the single rifle squad as the company HQ, and split off into sub-formation the three MG units (formation 85), as well as the observer (formation 279).

10.) Formation 424 (Bicycle Co) and 425 (Bicycle Co+) have MG unit as company HQ. I have no idea about how these units were historically organised, but in game such HQ would have serious difficulty in keeping up with bicycle infantry on road march (speed 4 vs. 9). Should there maybe be some sort of transport available for this MG?

11.) Formation 327 (Light AA Pl) has two medium trucks in the formation HQ, while the two sub-formations have artillery prime movers for transportation.

Re: Polish OOB
 

And since the edit option seems to be having a day off, I would like to point out that the "75mm wzos/26 FG" under item 5 was actually supposed to read "75mm wz02/26 FG".

Re: Polish OOB
 

Right. And these 47mm guns in Bulgaria and Thailand have kill 2.

Re: Polish OOB
 

In polish OOB as SP-AT vehicle is used De Dion-Bouton mod. 1913 Polish army used them since early 1920. In 1936 was found that equipment was in pour condition especially cars so were rebuild with use of PF621L car chassis. First such vehicles were available since August 1936. But not all vehicles were rebuild so in 1939 were used both versions PF621L wz.18/24 and also unmodernised De Dion wz.18/24. My proposition is to add proper photos and add this gun after modernisation with PF621 chassis which has better mobility pressure tyres instead of rubber massive. Gun was left the same and has no better characteristic in AT fire than on De Dion vehicle.

Aviaarmor summary of vehicle in polish and french army
https://translate.google.pl/translat...-text=&act=url

Polish De Dion vehicles
https://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/obraz/115877:1/
https://translate.google.pl/translat...ton-wz-1824%2F

Polish modernised variant on PF621 chassis
https://translate.google.pl/translat...ezne-pf621l%2F

Is possible to add this vehicles to French OOB also because they used them in 1940. French vehicles were the same as Polish De Dion-Buton M1913 and fought in WWI. Were modernised in 1934 to improve AT characteristic new optics and stability stands of the guns but not chassis so were still antic 1913 de Dion. Proposition is to add in french OOB also such vehicles and after 1934 modernised variant with slightly better AT parameters but still poor mobility. Is likely that instead like Polish French rebuild all of their vehicles in 1934 because whole production was only 120 vehicles at all.

Photo of modernised 1934 French variant
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ire_-_1919.jpg

Photo of this vehicle destroyed in 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...58847&start=30

Re: Polish OOB
 

Minor issues:

137 Douglas Boston - more adequate photo is 12550 in RAF markings (though they weren't used by Polish squadrons)

239 Fortified House - better photo seems 30233

258 Marksman - a soldier on a photo is clearly from 1939 - a better photo for this period is French 15022

259 Marksman - a soldier on a photo is from 1939 - it should be replaced with something British, but with an ordinary rifle without a scope. I've found a nice photo of Commonwealth soldier
http://f.tqn.com/y/militaryhistory/1...ield-large.jpg
- it could be used also for British OOB 575 Marksman and Canadian 214 Sniper, which use photos of a scoped rifle.

274, 496,497 Barykada - better photo of a barricade seems 30232

370 Polski Fiat 621 - IMHO better icon for a troop-transporting truck is 3170/72/70, without some package on a platform.
Then, 360 Ursus A should receive icon 3179/81/79, corresponding with its smaller size, and 369 Polski Fiat 618 - yet smaller icon 2138 (winter 3184). There's no need of desert icons for pre-war Poland, but they also can be found.

btw, 369 Polski Fiat 618 - photo is not Fiat 618. It looked like this: http://www.2wojna.pl/galeria/albums/...lwb003z001.jpg or a better photo http://cdnphoto.dobroni.pl/foto_news/lmpd_2.jpg

400,470 37mm AT-Gun - photo is ugly, and shows a gun with half of shield lacking - there is a good Polish one 30500

439 Crusader II-CS - should be used until 5/44 (now 4/43), until advent of Sherman CS

456 Renault FT-17, 457 Renault FT 37mm - I suggest to give them specifically Polish photos (with a gun: http://derela.republika.pl/FT17_Lowicz.jpg or older: http://pibwl.republika.pl/ft17zch7.jpg
with MG: http://pibwl.republika.pl/ft17pol_3.jpg
or I'll attach some others.
For a sake of consistency, unit 456 might be named "FT" instead of "FT-17" (especially, that "17" wasn't officially a part of a name)

471 47mm AT-Gun - I suggest a name 47mm Cpt AT-Gun or something like this meaning captured. Same for 472 20mm AA Gun and 53 50mm AT Gun


477 Hotchkiss H-35 - there are different versions in publications, but most probably they were H-39 with SA-18 gun (Magnuski wrote about H-39, and they were rather new production tanks).
As a result, speed should be 36 km/h, proper icon is 4391, and much better photo is 32017.


693 Fiat 3000 - unfortunately, it isn't known, what armament had this single tank (or if it was armed at all), but it should likely have an Italian armament, sure not SA-18 gun. I suggest to copy #14 VTerni 37mm L40 gun from Italian OOB, with 68 rounds.

793 Bren Carrier - it rather should have Bren instead of a rifle

829 Berliet - icon 3161/63 is more appropriate for a heavy truck

877 Renault FT-17 - a photo should be French one (27556), with FM MG

---

Easy things worth to add:
- Praga RV truck - #211 from Romanian OOB, used from around 6/39 to 9/39, rare equipment (though used in the 10th Mot. Cavalry Brigade)
- 47mm Gun Empl - #371 from Finnish oob, with its main weapon and #173 rifle, used in 9/39-9/39 on the Polish coast.

btw: weapon 173 should be renamed from "Kb wz.98a" (same as weapon 178) to "Kbk wz.98" or "Wz.98 carbine" - it was shorter carbine, not rifle (and they were distinguished in earlier oobs)

It would be worth also to add Polish most typical field bunker, which was armed with only one wz.30 HMG, and maybe grenades. It could be based upon unit 387. They were meant for flanking fire, so maybe they should have heavily armoured sides (concrete plus earthen embankment from enemy's side)

Re: Polish OOB
 

I'm attaching several pictures, that might be useful:

447 Boys Carrier - for consideration, a photo of Polish Boys carrier - unfortunately, not too good, but a real thing from desert fights (I'm not sure if a carrier on current 30233 picture is Polish)

469 7.92 wz.08 AAMG (Maxim) - current photo is probably Dutch (not Polish anyway)

452 Renault R-35 - attached a specifically Polish 1939 R-35 (unfortunately, few photos exist)

529 LKU - attached a photo of Polish armed river boats

539 CKU Nieuchwytny - attached a proper photo of this heavy armed river boat

551 Policja - current photo is probably Slovak armoured car

664 Wz.28(late) - I'm attaching a better photo of late version with slanted back (29506)

I'm also attaching alternative proposals for units:
- 496-497 Barykada from 1944 Warsaw Uprising (not 274 though);
- 238 Bunker (a forest partisan one);
- LWP OOB09 233 MO-D-3 Class (it might be copied to USSR OOB as well, used from 1943)

That's all as for now.

Re: Polish OOB
 

Thank You for last updates :)

Only few things.

I don't know how come I skipped naval support so far:

128 120mm Naval Gun - it could exist only from 5/37 (Grom class destroyers).
If you'd like to change a generic picture, here are photos:
http://www.1939.pl/uzbrojenie/polski...m/orp-grom.jpg
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:ORP_Grom.jpg
http://www.muzeummw.pl/files/grom1.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...401e325246.jpg
(btw: the destroyer Błyskawica is preserved, as the oldest destroyer in the world)

For earlier period, there should be added 130mm Naval Gun (weapon might be copied from Soviet weapon #189), used from 1/30 (well, precisely 7/30, but it would affect formations) until 9/39 (existed longer, but unlikely after that date). You can use a generic picture, or photos:
http://1.static.s-trojmiasto.pl/zdj/..._3_599_322.jpg
http://www.muzeummw.pl/files/Burza%20(1).jpg
http://www.muzeummw.pl/files/Wicher%20(2).jpg

456 Renault FT - weapon should be 228 7.92 wz.25 TMG

488 Mustang Mk.III - Mk.III variant could receive an own photo
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...265871131).jpg
http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.../309_FZ124.jpg

547 37mm Portee - it's worth to replace a photo with original Polish Morris 15 cwt of Carpathian Lancers
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...forsPortee.jpg

630 Mk IVh (Pz IV) - a photo is a very German tank. There is a Polish one http://www.sokol.slupsk.pl/Polskie_koty/2.jpg

900 Kubus improvised APC - there could be added an infantry flamethrower, quoted as its armament during its most known action, possibly used from an open upper hatch...

There could be added Panzerfaust team in inf.AT (class 2), in 8-9/44, as an insurgent weapon. There is weapon #89, a secondary weapon could be pistol or #157 Kar 98k Rifle, possibly grenades.

That's all. I have several more written down, but they are too minor to bother you...

Re: Polish OOB
 

Renault M26/27 wz.32 was a prototype with installed Vickers E caterpillar mechanism build in poland

http://i.imgur.com/b5EgafT.jpg

WB-10 experimental tank prototype build 1925 survived until 1939

http://www.horizongamer.pl/wp-conten...-Tanks-018.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/e7Bz4J1.jpg


TKS/SD new photos
http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsfo..._10_copy13.jpg
http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsfo..._11_copy15.jpg

Re: Polish OOB
 

I'm sorry to overload you, but icons for 37mm Bofors just must be corrected ;)
The rest - well, you can decide if to spare 10 minutes to complete.

--------

Errors, that should be corrected:


101 105mm Gun - wz.29 gun should have twin-trail icon, not a single-trail - the best is 2125 (of 10 cm K18)

368 Polski Fiat 508 - much better icon, probably even dedicated to it (currently unused) is 2749/2751.
Better name is PF 508 Lazik - they were named so (rough translation = "rover")

370 Polski Fiat 621 - much better icon of Polish primary truck is 3170/3172 - current one is too slim, with much too long cargo platform (upper view http://www.mulierchile.com/polski-fi...08-518-007.jpg)

400, 470 37mm AT gun - icon has been changed to a new one, but erroneous ancient gun - proper icon for Bofors is 8000

402 47mm AT-Gun - it still has old icon 55. Best icon for French 47 mm seems 8038 (of US 37 mm), because of its width and flat shield between wheels. It was quite heavy piece, and should be much larger, than 8019 icon used in French oob.

(The same for French #26, Vichy #26, Italian #83 C/C 47L53 SA37, German #336 4.7cm PaK 183f)

563-567,573 Peugot - a spelling error in name (should be Peugeot)
(BTW: better designations, than AM/AC unused outside France, would be "Peugeot (MG)" - or just "Peugeot", and "Peugeot (37mm)" or something like that.)

---------

Simple things, that it's worth to correct:

15 Stuart V - used until 5/44 only (now 12/46) - then rebuilt to Stuart Recce

491 Stuart Recce - maybe it's worth to just reclassify it to 12 Light Tank, like other Stuarts? (now Light Cav. Tank). They replaced Stuarts as recce tanks in Italian theatre. Now the unit is only used in one single-tank formation #149.
BTW: max speed of turretless Stuarts was reported in Polish sources to be over 70 km/h, due to their smaller weight.


45 Staghound - it was used from 9/43 (now 6/44), radio should be 2 or 0 (now 1) - it was the most common Polish AC in 1944/45

On contrary, 429 M-H IV should be least common AC (now radio 0) (BTW: it was used since 6/45 - now 5/45)
Better icon seems 1371 (of Guy AC), for it had no spare wheel on a front plate (now it's Humber AC) (drawing: https://www.the-blueprints.com/bluep...on-mark-iv.gif) - same for British unit 358 - unless there is a beautiful icon 3933/1212 in SPMBT...

53 Cpt 50mm AT Gun - new standard icon of Pak 38 is 8010


104 Hurricane IIc - it should have two 500lb bombs, like the British one (it seems, that Hurricane couldn't take a single bomb at all).

106 Mosquito VI - it could be available earlier (they were already used from 11/43 by Polish 305 Squadron - now 6/44)

185 Crusader AA Mk2 - in fact they had coaxial AAMG Vickers instead of BMG (they had no MG turret)
(the same applies to British unit 105).

276 4.5in Howitzer - icon is inappropriate, with much too long barrel - British oob uses 2115

282 Rifle Squad - since it has radio 3, it can receive back #60 wz.38M self-loading rifle as a primary weapon (rare experimental unit, nevertheless a couple were used). Maybe it should be named as experimental?

310 Obrona Narodowa - photo should be 32134, like unit 311 (now they are some partisans)

401 25mm AT-Gun - new icon for French 25mm is 8018 (it still has old 54)


418 wz.25 AAMG [2] - unit and its weapon should be named wz.14 (original Hotchkiss, instead of modified wz.25 used only as TMG).

438 Morris LRC - better icon seems 1398 (of Beaverette IV), with its asymmetrical turret (current one is some car, better than nothing).
Same for British unit #558

448 Valentine II - was still used by the Polish after 6/42 - until 11/43 in Mid East

471 Cpt 47mm AT-Gun - new icon for Breda 47 mm is 8029

483 Spitfire Mk.XIV - it's better to rename it Mk.IX, a standard in Polish squadrons operating over ETO in ground support.

In any case, .50 MGs should be changed to two #167 20mm Hispano (well, it had also two .50 MGs, but cannons are more important ;))

560 75mm wz.97/25 - name should be wz.22/24, in accordance with the weapon.

610,613-615 PZL-23B Karas - speed 4 is probably too much (according to Polish monographs, it was only 268 km/h with maximum bombs load, 319 km/h clean)

691,692 Renault M26/27 - they should be used only until 1932 (rebuilt to ordinary FT afterwards) (now 9/39)

711 Partisan PIAT - better photo, showing Polish partisan Piat in action: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a9/75/7b/a...-the-ruins.jpg
or http://www.info-pc.home.pl/whatfor/baza/aa2/piat1n.jpg

There should be added Sherman Dozer - they were used by Polish tank units (on contrary to #31 Churchill AVRE, which could possibly be used only by allied units).


Best truck icons:
369 Polski Fiat 618 - best is 2138 - short platform 1.2t truck (same for desert one, winter one could stay)

376 Chevrolet 157 - better is 3167/3169, so that it's longer than Fiat 621

382 3 Ton GS Truck - icon is the same as #347 30cwt truck, should be bigger, eg. 2151


Formations:

210,211,212 Monitor, Gunboat - it's better to clarify River Monitor / River Gunboat

338 Infantry Gun Pl - there should be limber instead of wagon

358 Heavy Art Bn /3 - sadly, there was only one 105mm battery and one 155mm battery (3 guns each) in heavy arty units of infantry divisions

-------
That's all as for Poland this season.

Re: Polish OOB
 

********* If you were you'd stop dumping these damn lists on the forums. Your OCD is a PITA...

<SNIP>

402 47mm AT-Gun - it still has old icon 55. Best icon for French 47 mm seems 8038 (of US 37 mm), because of its width and flat shield between wheels. It was quite heavy piece, and should be much larger, than 8019 icon used in French oob.[/quote]

That's nice Michael but "old icon 55" ISN'T IN THE GAME ANY LONGER , That entire file has been redone months ago so any comment about those one is a waste of my time trying to sort out is what you THINK is better is in fact better.so you are now sending me " corrections" on things that are NOT WHAT YOU SEE and it's a PITA sorting through and I'm not the least bit impressed with your short selling the work involved with " you can decide if to spare 10 minutes to complete. "

10 minutes MY A$$!!

Make that the last for ANYTHING else "this season" or I WILL shut you down.......go read the forum rules....6th paragraph from the end... All you contribute any longer is mainly negative energy and aggravation.

Don