Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Does anybody have any advice for saving high-priced armor from air attack? Time and again, in scenarios like Camo's Schwerzer Herzog pair (#28 & 29) and Mr. Lundstrom's WWIII NATO vs Warsaw Pact battles, Russian Su-24's and -25's, MiG-27's, and Hind helos keep blowing up my beloved MBT's and APC's with impunity. After the first few turns most air defenses have been destroyed or expended their ammo so there's practically no way to fight back except with puny AAMG's (had only some mild success with ATGM's against helos).

The standoff attacks with LGB's (laser-guided bombs?) are the worst. In my last scenario (UK vs Sovs, #132) four Su-24's with a total of 16 LGB's whacked a dozen Challengers from afar over maybe 8 turns IIRC. They hardly missed or failed to kill. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

I wish my air was that effective when I use it!

The only way to stop a particular air attack is to actually shoot down the aircraft/helo performing it. This is difficult as MPADS almost never do "shoot down" damage.

The "key" is to damage aircraft/helos so they will not return later to haunt you. If you can limit them to one pass each, while annoying they're generally not devastating.

While it's tempting to use all your SAM/MPADs and try to shoot the suckers down you're better off making sure you have them spread out, firing wise, to cover at least the first half of a scenarios length/turns.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Yes, try to buy as good a quality AA/SAM/SPAA as you can afford with ammo resupply units if your playing a game where you suspect you'll be operating in an enhanced air environment such as being the defender or delaying action. Buy ammo resupply units based on the type anti-air systems you have I.E. SPAA type you should purchase supply unit that can keep pace with your SPAA units especially when re-positioning them. Buying ammo re-supply this way will keep your cost down and help avoid the re-supply overload penalty.

I prefer SPAA units because of their movement capabilities the AI (And myself.) will hunt those units down by air and artillery if you don't move them (This applies to "onboard" artillery as well.) I like movement. It seems like as SUHIIR has noted those air units might've been "tweaked" a bit if they're causing that much damage, and also like she says damage them enough/a lot and generally you'll be left alone concerning helos. Jets/Planes tend to keep coming back until the ordnance has been expended or they're shot down.

Don't like MANPADS in general unless I'm stuck with them in a scenario or they are an organic part of an infantry unit I want for others reasons besides the MANPAD. I won't waste my time or points in buying them.

Just some general thoughts I hope will help.

Regards,
Pat

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Thanks folks. Trouble is, these particular scenarios give the AI (usually Warsaw Pact) lots of air assets, in many cases enough to saturate defenses on the initial pre-start bombardment phase. Then more arrive as reinforcements after 10 turns or so.

You can shoot down or damage some among the first waves but as noted above after that your anti-air (a couple or three SP SAM's along with a handful of MANPADS) is by that time essentially worthless. So you're pretty much defenseless when the reinforcements show up. Ah well, sometimes there's no choice but to suck it up, just as in RL.

Thanks again and happy gaming!

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

"The power of an air force is terrific when there is nothing to oppose it.", Winston Churchill: The Gathering storm, 1948.

Your examples are scenarios where air power is employed en masse. probably with not too much of a defence on the ground side (e.g. lack of resupply).

Air power, like armour is best used in large concentrations. The usual stuff you see in most random campaign battles may involve 3 flights at most, so air is mostly an annoyance then.

If you are playing against the USA, or as the Germans in 44-45 in WW2 then you can find that the AI is taking 10 or a dozen flights. And that can take a severe toll of your toys. In that set of circumstances extra ADA assets are a worthwhile insurance policy.

In a scenario, you have the ADA assets the designer gave you. In long campaigns, ADA is often a waste of points - in fact a gift of points to the opponent since he will get that value to spend.

My favourite ADA unit tends to be the ZSU-23-4 or something similar. It can beat on enemy light troops if the planes don't come out to play unlike SAMS. SO I usually buy 2 sections of 2 of these for a Soviet battalion sized core. The UK OOB is lacking in these, so German allies is where I usually go for some 35mm with support points if I suspect a lot of air is coming.

SAMs can be useful, but have few arrows. If the enemy has lots of ECM then they can be dodged. Any SAM therefore that you buy should be self-mobile and have access to ammo trucks or better yet, armoured load carriers. I usually restrict myself to 1 SP-SAM section - OSAs usually.

MANPADS I find only useful in the 1968-80 period, when aircraft ECM is low. If they are distributed about the battlefield then it is a problem getting resupply to them, and if concentrated on a nice hill with a view of the battlefield then they will get noticed and draw arty. If a rifle company HQ comes with them then I usually leave those, or change it to an ATGM perhaps. If I do use them then its something like the UK LAAD sections with a dedicated Spartan to carry them from the hilltop off to a nearby ammo supply and back once any ary they drew has subsided.

A few radar equipped 57mm or 35/40mm flak pieces with APC to shift them about is a good investment though. Even a few visually aimed (i.e. cheap!) 23mm dotted about the rear zone can be helpful. Especially if you have rough patches of ground to deploy them in. I like to have a couple of sections of 57mm in the soviet core. They can overwatch an open flank and maybe brass up any scout cars or APC of an attempted flank attempt.

Some Radar-directed 57mm overwatching the battlefield are a nice way to deal with approaching attack or transport helos the AI moves towards you.

Oh yes - ADA should really have radar, at least any ones you have in the core. Shoulder carried MANPADS often do not have night vision, or very poor. So are blinded by night and smoke and battlefield dust.

I usually spend support points on ADA if I have the feeling its going to be a day the sky gets darkened by crows. So for a battalion sized force of 3 or 4 companies, I usually will have 2 SPAA sections and 1 SP SAM section in the core. I place resupply vehicles near them at battle start - if there is no need found for them, then those can move off to top up my mortars etc.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

If they're pre-made scenarios you're stuck with what you have, all you can do is try to make the best of it. Play WinSPMBT a while you'll notice the sorts of targets the AI like to bomb and learn concealment in trees is your friend when the AI has lots of aircraft and never, never, over concentrate your forces.

I tend to play as the US thus their ground based air defenses are pretty weak, air superiority or at least parity is sort of assumed by US forces.

As Mobhack noted MPADs are pretty much a waste of time as far as shooting anything down, but they can damage aircraft/helos ... and damaged aircraft do not return that I've ever seen, whereas helos will retreat off the battlefield if damaged.

I usually grab a pair of SAMs and trucks to move them (since the US has very few SP SAMs) and ALWAYS ammo trucks. While easily overwhelmed by the AI you'll whittle them down eventually.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

AAA defence tricks & tips including gamey options most of which you only need if the game is rich in enemy air.

AAA guns vs fast air probably leave as is so get a few shots at it but vs helos reduce range to improve hit chance. Helo may well also end up in range for multiple on target shots in your turn.
Only units I often micro manage.

MANPADs if you have quite a few turn some off you only need 1 hit to stop the plane coming back not several to take it down.
Don't move them if airs coming in they need the stationary firer flag enabled for max effect.

Verus attack helos if they end there turn in a good position for shots next turn if possible attack them to force them to move & hence attack with lower accuracy.

Protecting high value assets.
Likes of MBTs switch AA off in opfire filter or turn off the MG, they wont give away there position or use there shots for AA leaving none for when a ground target comes into view.
Any/all of the following, best vs strafing runs but still effective vs standoff weapons
Move them in an unexpected way, i.e temporary retreat so they are not where the planes looking.
Try not to have them out front or alone.
Screen by having cheaper units like APCs near them.
Don't move or fire them if your expecting incoming air next turn & they are not in enemy LOS, you could however move the cheaper units mentioned above so they are easily visible to the planes & hopefully get targeted instead.
Don't forget good old smoke to hamper targeting.

Its basically another layer to combined arms you try not to get caught in an armour infantry arty combined attack by avoiding or removing so spend a few turns engaging or being hit by the air while you are NOT engaging other enemy units because that's when it really hurts.
Don't worry about giving up ground if you have to & moving towards your AAA.

Really gamey tactic
Versus helos if your in trouble & especially if you have fast AA capable APCs pull back so they come ahead of enemy lines then go kamikaze.
Like some people do with cheap helos
Run furthest APCs to draw fire then run others adjacent for a half decent hit chance & open up.
Worst case you will force it to run & use weapons on low value targets.
Best Helo is damaged or dead for less points lost than its worth.

Then there is helo on helo battles if you have some.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Sounds like you had a bad couple of games where the random number generator was not your friend. I just ran an AI vs AI of #28 and at least 2 Grachs were hit 3 times by manpads and the Gepards. There are 6 Grach in that scenario and only 4 made it to the end of turn 1 when I ran my test. and only three of those are available for turn 2........that's 50% effective air loses in the first turn, they destroyed 4 Marders... no Leos

I will admit your compaint was unusual , I normally only hear how aircraft are useless. It was a refreshing change to hear the other side of the coin :D

Don

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Not useless ... just not worth the unit cost :D

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

I remember this scenario now you were unlucky the Gepards are very effective, low ammo load though. It wouldn't be worth including the air if you had more AA.
I buy my AAA exactly as Andy mentioned normally 2x SPAAA & 1x SPSAM section for a battalion in a typical side battle/campaign.
Defending, delaying I might buy extra AAgun SAM or MANPAD sections.
My view my SAMs are 1st defence vs planes with stand off weapons
AAA guns are good all rounders main defence vs helos.
MANPADS efficiency varies depending on time frame & conditions, main use probably bothering helos to stop them getting a good shot.

On the occasions you find yourself facing a dozen planes & often supporting attack helos dealing with the air hampers operations drastically & requires a lot of thought. That's when I do things like restricting MBT AA.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Off topic but I would disagree with that statement.
Used piecemeal they are no good I never purchase Air unless I can have a minimum of 6 planes. 8-10 & a SEAD section now we are talking.

1) Cost of plane is generally cheaper than a MBT
2) Decent AAA is expensive & vulnerable, ground battle is easier due to build points used towards it, if they haven't got much Wahooo decimation ensues.
3) Makes the ground battle far easier
a) Restricts operations as air threat has to be allowed for.
b) Gives you battlefield information you would never have had.
c) Combined arms the plane normally stands a lot less chance of getting hit than my armor.
I just did this 4 planes attacked a MBT company followed by 3 MBT opening up on suppressed targets. Outcome 1 plane down 1 damaged 1 MBT destroyed - 9 tanks & several APC destroyed before smoke hindered play. My low MBT losses were due to suppression of enemy forces & knowing exactly where they were.
4) For overkill once you manage to drain/destroy most AAA bring out the scout helo,
in my view game changers due to the battlefield info they gather so don't be impatient & use it in a rich AAA environment.

Air assets are therefore worth a lot more than simply the units they destroy.

One final point if the AAA is very effective against the air it probably cost more than them to. Add up your AAA assets if your talking radar or even decent MANPADS they are not cheap.
You cut your losses by giving up buying say an additional platoon of MBTs or an additional rifle company.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Yeah, Koenig****ter (#28) wasn't so bad airwise. Shot down 2 Grach's and damaged at least one more on the first turn, didn't lose any Leopards either. Plus there's only one Su-27 with 2 GM's for standoff attack and no Su-24's. Bigger problem was arty and the Hind attack helos with Kokon ATGM's (only 5 of those, including one E model).

Schandelah (#29) was something else. In addition to a dozen attack helos (6 each, D&E), a dozen Grach's, and 4 MiG-27's, there's also 4 Su-24's for standoff (can't tell from the save if they're armed with 2 GM's or 4 LGB's). By turn 23 (of 30) I'd already lost 24 Leopards and had only a handful left. Only a miracle saved our puny remnants from being overwhelmed by the seemingly endless formations of enemy armor charging to the slaughter.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Agreed, less then 6 aircraft is generally a waste of time. 10+ tends to be almost overwhelming.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

[quote=jivemi;831804]I had the same experience as you the first time I played Schandelah #29. The Soviet air in that one is brutal. #28 and #29 are 2 of my favorite scenarios and I've done all kinds of edited versions. In #29 I'm often changing the air side of things so it's a little more one sided in the favor of my panzers. :D

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Give them something else to shoot at.

Hide your MBTs and have your trucks and cheap APCs move around in the open. Every LGB they soak up is one less fired at a high value unit.

Also set the range on your AAA to 1/2 to avoid wasting ammo at targets when there is a low hit chance.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

How do you set the range on AAA units? I've found they always seem to shoot at their maximum range at aircraft targets, would love to have them hold their fire until the aircraft are close enough to have a decent chance to hit them.

Steve

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Use the Y key or 3rd Icon from the top

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

I've set the range using the Y key, and also through the OP filter, but that only seems to affect AAA units firing on ground units, not air units. Do you know for sure that it affects firing ranges on air units? Is it in the manual?

Thanks,

Steve

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

I have done it and it works. No use having ZSUs or Vulcans waste ammo on long range shots.

Just remember that if you later fire at a helo or other target beyond this range it resets to the longer range.

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

[quote=Steves308;831972][quote=Imp;831970]Manual? We don't need no stinking manual! :D

Re: Limiting Losses to Air Attack
 

Thanks for the info, I will have to test it and see what happens. It may be I was just assuming, since the OP filter has no AAA setting.

Steve